Will ArmA 2 support FreeTrack?!

[[frl]myke 14]

@bionic

You should read less between the lines and more on the lines. ;) j/k

Can´t see the problem BIS having a look at Free Track it costs nothing to do so.

Wrong, it costs time. I guess BI had assistance or at least detailed documents on how to implement the API. And i also guess they had a direct contact person whenever they needed help. This preserves a lot of development time which can be used on other aspects in the game.

Where i agree with you is that it sounds funny for a free project to have any kind of sales/PR manager. But this isn't BIS's issue. Thats also why i've suggested mr.g-c to take this part temporarely. This wasn't meant as a joke at all. Maybe you can stick with him and work out something that could help BIS to get a proper implemented freetrack API. Take contact to one of the superior freetrack developer and ask if he/she would stick together with you to work on a solution for this.

Get active.

:EDITH:

And as i understand it, freetrack isn't free, it is Open Source. The main meaning of it is that people can participate in development (in widest terms) and here you can jump in. Even when you don't know programming at all, help them to be included into the game as you want it. Far more productive way than anything else.

Edited May 6, 2009 by [FRL]Myke

[maddogx 13]

Hey Luke, i don't know if you read the whole topic, but it was already stated that Free-Track have their own API, included in a own and open source SDK, which itself is freely available in the lastest driver package ;):)

Nah, I overlooked that... never mind. ;)

[Jorge.PT 10]

I don't know what kind of business does BI have with natural point, but ArmA2 being able to support FreeTrack is only dependable of their (BI) willing.

I've read before (don't remember who posted it) that BI and natural point support each other, by giving free publicity to their products. I've nothing against this, but if BI is just doesn't insert FreeTrack API code in ArmA2, because of that relation, or pressure from natural point...

If natural point really relies on this kind of actions to gain new clients, they are just desperated and digging their own grave. One thing they can expect from me, I'll only buy their equipment for the same price that I build mine.

EDIT: To end my conversation here, I proudly leave a picture of my cap:

EDIT3: Sorry about the infraction, image under 100kb added.

[iG]http://i711.photobucket.com/albums/ww117/Jorge_PT/100_2402.jpg[/img]>100kb

EDIT2: Why don't I see my signature?

Edited May 6, 2009 by Jorge.PT

[bravo 6 0]

of course an Alentejano cap. Typical and traditional Portuguese manufacture.

Congrats mate! If i were you i would do it better (use imagination) ;)

similar to the trackIr clip using a "bandolete", because in hot days i doubt its a good idea to wear a cap.

Edited May 6, 2009 by bravo 6
typo

[Yoma 0]

All i can say is that NaturalPoint's product is looking great. And you can't blame BIS for providing great interaction with their product.

I'm not sure supporting this would interfere with "other solutions"?

I bet you'll still be able to freelook with mouse so I can't really see the problem as that would add support for something like freetrack in my mind.

[Jorge.PT 10]

I bet you'll still be able to freelook with mouse so I can't really see the problem as that would add support for something like freetrack in my mind.

Then why do you need trackir? Or why is it "looking great"?

Freetrack and trackir, gives you the same features in game 6 DOF, the main difference is that one is free and the other don't.

[SWAT_BigBear 0]

Considering FreeTrack isn't really free, maybe NP should be offering TIR4 for a comparative price.

Just a thought.

[[frl]myke 14]

@Jorge

your posts are unproductive. It's not up to you to decide what people should get. Everyones free to choose either the DIY freetrack or TIR.

If freetrack is it for you, fine, but this wont solve the problem. Your post could be misunderstood the way as you would say that BIS should support freetrack and drop TIR. Excellent, the same situation as before, just the other way around.

But back to topic. The best solution (and probably the most unlikely) would be if there could be added a general headtracking device in DirectX by MS. Just the way as it's done with Graphic cards. So developers, be it open source or commercial, could build up on a standardised API which works with all devices (if driver are present) and control software.

So game developers wouldn't have to fool around with it, just implement the DX support for headtracking API, thats it.

But as said above, most unlikely this would happen.

[Placebo 28]

maybe NP should be offering TIR4 for a comparative price.

Just a thought.

Nothing at all to do with this thread. Nothing at all to do with these forums. If you want to discuss TIR price feel free to Email Naturalpoint.

Please say on topic or people will receive infractions.

[bionic 10]

Considering FreeTrack isn't really free, maybe NP should be offering TIR4 for a comparative price.

Just a thought.

Yeah 50€ for TIR 4 and 80-90€ for TIR 5 that would be a good price and they would sell 10x more devices:thumb:

But in my case i don´t use Freetrack because of the price of Track IR but because of the fun to build things your self and see it working. The next thing i will go for is a homemade microsoft surface table. Big project but hey if it works i will try to play ArmA2 in high command on it:D

[Jorge.PT 10]

@Jorge

your posts are unproductive. It's not up to you to decide what people should get. Everyones free to choose either the DIY freetrack or TIR.

If freetrack is it for you, fine, but this wont solve the problem. Your post could be misunderstood the way as you would say that BIS should support freetrack and drop TIR. Excellent, the same situation as before, just the other way around.

Sorry Myke, but where did I said that BI should pick one in detriment of the other? And excuse me again but, where in my dam post did I say that one was better then the other?

Is your point just to mess with me, or you don't have anything "productive" to do.

Again Mr, Myke, you don't need to wait for a "universal" API code, BI as it on free track site.

[[frl]myke 14]

@Jorge

Your post could be misunderstood...

I'm sorry, didn't stated it clear enough. Wasn't saying you said so but your post could be misunderstood this way. No offence.

And i higly doubt that on freetrack site i'll find a universal DirectX API which supports TIR AND freetrack the same way.

[PhilippRauch 0]

Well, i will(might ;) ) get my copy of ArmaII on the 29th of May, so i will try it with FreeTrack then ... gotta use that new webcam someday for something.. never really use it for conferencing or such, hehe

Its some newer logitech model and works splendid with whatever lighting i have here.. although in my cave here in a'stan it aint much bright anyway.:don 16: But i use some standard IRled as track source, seems to work fine already...'

Now if FT really did somehow reverse-engineered something or parts of.. they will rot in opensource hell anyway soon ... if they just somehow got a nice way to get data from the TIR protocol then they are noble and will prosper, i mean doing it like Armalib does with arma, its kinda hack but not a crack...

(No need to reply to this one, i dont care, i will do my own research anyway :P )

I also tried to use some of those highpower narrow beam LEDs, same i would use for MilesTag, but these didnt seem to work or i couldnt supply the right amount/kind of power to them... after killing a couple i stopped experimenting with them since they are too precious.

The second question is more tricky to answer, at least for me. Is there a free API for Freetrack which would work alongside with NP's API without interfering each other? I don't know. Informations about are welcome.

Third question. Well, with all due respect for those who had managed to build a working Freetrack device, personally i think the majority of computer users will prefer a pre-build solution. Be it for lazyness, be it because they have a certain level of guarantee that all components work together as intended. So i also think it's more than likely that TIR users will outnumber Vreetrack users by far.

Conclusion: if not both can be included, the API which has probably more users will make it.

reg 2nd question:

Why should it be important to use both hardwares alongside? No point in it.. you use TIR or FT .. just look at the flamewars here ... why would you care about them interfereing?

If you want to test both then you could still do uninstall before the other gets installed? They are both competing for the same customers sure since they are quite similiar and i see no use of using both at the same machine ...

reg. 3rd question:

well maybe you can still buy the track clip pro (30-50U$ right?) and use that along with a nice webcam and FT ?? I dont know right now if thats easy enough for the other users.. but its plausible nonetheless.

Also some could resort to DIY friends or go to their friendly radioshack shop (well maybe not radioshack but some electronics store) and ask them to build one IR clip thingy for a small fee plus materials .. all possible and been done before.

:D its working in ArmaI so its already good... although i havent explored the Armalib extension for the 6DOF, something like that was there, right? Anyone knows about using Armalib for that purpose?

[EDcase 87]

I can understand NaturalPoint being annoyed by the use or their API by FreeTrack in the past.

But...

Now that this API has been removed from the latest build of FT there is no reason why it cannot be incorporated as well as TrackIR.

I will be very annoyed if there is any prevention of FT to be used so that NP can control the market.

[mr.g-c 6]

@PhilippRauch:

Its some newer logitech model and works splendid with whatever lighting i have here.. although in my cave here in a'stan it aint much bright anyway. But i use some standard IRled as track source, seems to work fine already...'

Remove IR-Filter, add a layer of floppy-disc magnetic disc in front of it to block light, or calibrate it like this guy (though keep in mind its really outdated Vid/Device construction):

C-1YOyHPaEQ

He has some nice guides about self-made clips too:

Also the guy "Viper3Two" has some really cool guides:

(I find it quite impressing how quick and smooth it runs with only a 30FPS Webcam!)

Now if FT really did somehow reverse-engineered something or parts of.. they will rot in opensource hell anyway soon ... if they just somehow got a nice way to get data from the TIR protocol then they are noble and will prosper, i mean doing it like Armalib does with arma, its kinda hack but not a crack...

Kinda strange claim i think, if i understood it right anyway :p

Both TIR and Free-Track using a same or very similar tracking Algorythm (25 lines of code) invented in 1992 from various IT-scientists, after the first webcams came out in 1991, so its "nothing special" after all from either side, in my opinion at least.

One Vendor uses it to make money, the one gives it away for free (and open source on top of it) and with use of nearly all available webcams on the market - so nearly fully hardware independent.

Its purley the choice of the end-user which way he prefers.

For me its like Linux and Windows... both are at the bottom line, some good operating systems, but one costs you something and is less of a hazzle to use, the other one is free but require you some efford to put it, to get it working.

I also tried to use some of those highpower narrow beam LEDs, same i would use for MilesTag, but these didnt seem to work or i couldnt supply the right amount/kind of power to them... after killing a couple i stopped experimenting with them since they are too precious.

Maybe all that guide-videos i showed you above might help. :)

Why should it be important to use both hardwares alongside?

You can/could run TIR Hardware with Free-Track software pretty easy actually.

They are both competing for the same customers sure since they are quite similiar and i see no use of using both at the same machine

Actually not, Free-Track is completely free and doesn't need any "customers", it's made for free-use by "users" ;)

well maybe you can still buy the track clip pro (30-50U$ right?) and use that along with a nice webcam and FT ??

Actually you should be able to, depends largely on the Webcam u use for Free-Track. But in Free-Track Forums i read quite some people reporting non-functionality with Track-Clip and Free-Track+Webcam.

@EDcase

Now that this API has been removed from the latest build of FT there is no reason why it cannot be incorporated as well as TrackIR.

Afaik there was no API removed from Free-Tracks Software. The API we talk about here, must be integrated into the software you want to use it with (in this case Arma2).

(But what you read is true, Free-Track had to remove some lines of code from their latest release out of NPs request.

After my research i think the issue is quite complex, with some (claimed to be false) Copyright claims and such and you can read in over the internet by search with Google or look in Free-Tracks Wikipedia page - though nothing to do with our proposal for Free-Track integration to Arma2, so see it as side-note, hence its why i write it that little.)

EDIT: Come' on Guys, please guys don't talk about TIR prices here, we don't want to get this Topic locked. Placebo as warned you, so please don't do it. Thanks!

Edited May 7, 2009 by mr.g-c
spelling errors

[Squint 0]

I will be very annoyed if there is any prevention of FT to be used so that NP can control the market.

NP and BIS are in contract with each other, and that's hardly controversial. Companies go under contract all the time, and that includes exclusivity rights.

Integrating an API takes development time and effort to do; it is not a brick you just put into a wall. FreeTrack is a completely independent endeavor, NaturalPoint is a for-profit business, and they're both going to be treated as such respectively. Since no contract exists between FreeTrack and BIS, BIS owes FreeTrack and their users absolutely nothing.

If FreeTrack wants this to change, they have to operate on the level that actual companies like BIS and NP do. Unfortunately for them, that means they would pretty much have to be selling a product they themselves make, which defeats the whole purpose of FreeTrack in the first place.

[mr.g-c 6]

We have written it numerous times now, TIR-Fanboys please please please stay out of this topic, this will only end in a flamewar otherwise.

We both don't want this (at least i hope you don't want this too otherwise is called trolling).

If you want to talk abaout why TIR is better and so on, please do it in the well known TIR topic, in which we Free-Track supporters also not enter and posting inflaming contents.

@ All others Free-Track interested People:

Please don't answer to Squints post, no matter how wrong it is, just ignore this post and let us continue with our discussion/proposal of Free-Track integrating into Arma2.

Thanks!

[S!fkaIaC 10]

@Squint:

You did not got the point.

NP and BIS are in contract with each other, and that's hardly controversial. Companies go under contract all the time, and that includes exclusivity rights.

No problem with a contract protecting NPs business interests, but as I mentioned before, making exclusivity rights part of such a contract is pretty stupid IMHO. And in Europe it is anyway problematic to implement such defacto-monopole, you see how EU was after Microsoft for similar actions.

But BIS can do what they want, but they might get another minus on their account.

But there is the huge plus that they implemented head tracking at all.

[Placebo 28]

We have written it numerous times now, TIR-Fanboys please please please stay out of this topic, this will only end in a flamewar otherwise.

We both don't want this (at least i hope you don't want this too otherwise is called trolling).

Considering that I clearly stated people should not use this thread to discuss Naturalpoint's business practices and/or API encryption and people have continued to ignore me and discuss those things I really think you have no place dictating who does and doesn't post in this thread.

If people actually start sticking to the topic the thread has a chance to keep going, if they don't it doesn't, irrespective of which side's "fanboys" post in here or not. I'd suggest you worry more about the postings of Freetrack "fanboys".

[Placebo 28]

Yes I said this can be discussed again, I did not say you can discuss Naturalpoint's business decisions, encryption of their API etc. etc. if Freetrack wants to be supported in games/apps then surely the onus is on them to provide everything that's required, if they can only provide a system/method that requires jerry rigging onto another company's software/API/IP or such then that should be something discussed directly with them.

I provided clear opinion in the last thread about one company choosing to encrypt/protect their own API/Software/IP digging up the same topic over and over is pointless and serves only to inflame the situation. To start the new thread with the very same allegations and insinuations moves the whole topic closer and closer to a topic that will end up not being discussable on these forums.

And one more final time considering S!fkaIaC is the latest person ignoring my clear guidelines.

[S!fkaIaC 10]

Considering that I clearly stated people should not use this thread to discuss Naturalpoint's business practices and/or API encryption and people have continued to ignore me and discuss those things I really think you have no place dictating who does and doesn't post in this thread.

With all respect, I guess it is pretty hard to discuss freetrack only if there might be a contract(phrase) between BIS and NP that might influence the (possible future) relation BIS<->freetrack.

Btw, where is the thread to discuss the NP business behavior, is it here:

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=72436

?

If it is anyway a hoax, please end this by stating "There is no exclusivity right for NPs API".

Edited May 7, 2009 by S!fkaIaC

[Placebo 28]

There is no thread for such a discussion as it's not appropriate to discuss on these forums, if you have issues with Naturalpoint's business practices feel free to Email them about it.

[mr.g-c 6]

I have a idea, considering that Suma/Maruk are most likely extremely busy with getting Arma2 done currently....

Maybe Placebo has a webcam.... *cough*

If he is allowed, maybe he can install FT, setting his camera "dark", start Arma2 and try if its reacting with a TV remote-controller :p

Would be a quick and dirty part-solution and at least we would know a bit more "where we are".

Just a idea of course!

[S!fkaIaC 10]

Well, it is hypothetical, there might be not such a influencing behaviour.

Hence it is pointless to send NP an e-mail.

So "if an UNKNOWN company MIGHT have a exclusive right on an implemented API in ArmA 2" would be acceptable for you?

Btw this "Kafkaesque" restriction of the topic makes me feel like I am in a Chinese forum.

If something is influencing the topic to be discussed it should be ok to discuss it. And I criticized a POSSIBLE decision by BIS, nobody knows if it is like that. I was NOT discussing NPs business behaviour, it was rather BIS possible business behaviour.

A clear word could end it.

Maybe I PM you my next post so that you can control it before publishing?

Edited May 7, 2009 by S!fkaIaC

[Jorge.PT 10]

NP and BIS are in contract with each other, and that's hardly controversial. Companies go under contract all the time, and that includes exclusivity rights.

Are you sure that such a contract exists, or are you just speculating?