F-22 and US-101 Cancelled

[PhilippRauch 0]

Well, now that the chinese got the plans for the F-35, it will be cheaper to buy them from them i guess... :D

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

Well, now that the chinese got the plans for the F-35, it will be cheaper to buy them from them i guess... :D

Yeah but it will have lead based paint and break just after Christmas. :butbut:

[An-225 0]

Yeah but it will have lead based paint and break just after Christmas. :butbut:

Well, I guess since lead is so dense, it will simply stop or reflect radar, not absorb it. Thats why China will never manufacture stealth fighters.

In all seriousness, why are other parts of the world only now beginning to develop stealth aircraft?

The Germans apparently applied RAM to the Horten flying wing. The F-117 has been around since the early 80s.

Since the advent of the F-22's introduction into service, many nations seem to be showing signs of independence, and building their own stealth fighters - such as the J-XX, PAK-FA and the ATD-X.

The Germans and British did attempt to build their own.

[ricoadf 0]

I'd say it would be the reason that keeps getting stated, high cost over low capabilities. Yes a F-117 can do a very good stealth attack, but F-15's or any other GBU equipped planes with EF-111A's or Growler's as support with an AWAC's is far more effective and I would even say propably either around the same cost or even cheaper.

[An-225 0]

Thats a fair enough point. What I don't understand though, is why said communist countries waited until a few years ago. It would have been logical to build them while the Cold War was active (although China may not have had the technology).

[Saint Warrior 10]

@ Saint Warrior if you want a job in the PR departments of Lockheed, Boeing, BAE System or Thales Defence I have some contacts. I suspect that if you were a US national Lockheed would offer you the job purely off the faith you have shown them in this thread.

Thanks for your proposal though, but I am quite satisfied with my current job and military aviation is just a hobby. :)

In this thread I just wanted to clearify that U.S. military industry will repeat mistakes, done by Russians in 1980's, in case they cease further developments of 5th generation stealth fighters and roll back to extensive upgrades of current production aircraft like F-15E or F-16E.

The biggest mistake done by Russians is that they actually stopped any technological progress in area of military aviation with the development of Su-27 and Mig-29. I remember those times (beginning and mid 1990's) when there were only constant screaming by Sukhoi and Mig companies: "We have developed the most agile aircraft in the world! Su-27 can perform a Cobra maneuver thus it beats F-15 to pieces, and F-16 have nothing against the Bell maneuvers of Mig-29!".

Were they that stupid to think that F-15 and F-16 will be the most sophisticated jets U.S. is able to develop, that there were no more researches and future programs going on? Were they that stupid to not to see that all air combat is moving all the way to BVR after Gulf War in 1991? What did they get in the result?

Still the same Su-27 and Mig-29 platforms after 19 years, mysterious, non-production Su-47 Berkut, Mig 1.44 and PAK-FA and ongoing production of F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning II at their opponent's.

[ricoadf 0]

Thats the thing, they arn't opponants. Russia and US are not going to war with eachother, as much as you don't like the Russians the USA isn't going to fight them and without an enemy to fight that has a proper military the US has no reason to spend billions making toy planes, since all they will do is look pritty. IF they need new planes, the US has the tech and the F-22/35 and they can easily resume production, and they also have NATO with the Typhoon etc to help. Realistically I don't see a military taking on any NATO country, they would be smashed within a week.

Edited April 22, 2009 by RicoADF

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

Thats a fair enough point. What I don't understand though, is why said communist countries waited until a few years ago.

I could write a huge essay about this. Its such an involved topic. Its mostly about money and industrial capability. Research in RAM technology costs. Large scale manufacturing or composites and even worse RAM composites costs more. The investment in the infrastructure and manufacturing plants costs 100s of millions. Russian industry began to catch up in small scale composites around 2003. Some of the remanufactured MiGs and Sukhois now use multiple RAM composite panels the leading edges of their aircraft reducing the RCS by as much as 60% apparently.

NOTE for clarification - the biggest reflectors of ground based (ie low angle) radar are the leading edges of the wings and tails. Intakes, slatted vents and the radar. Even the Pilots helmet makes a huge difference

But these parts are only small due to the limits imposed by production capability i.e. less than a metre. Making the single piece wing panels (~4m x 5m) used on Eurofighter for instance requires huge autoclaves and massive state of the art 6 axis machines to work it correctly. I could spend hours boring you senseless about manufacturing limitations and processes (don't worry I wont) but the point is that Russia, China and India are on learning curve. They have limited capability compared to the more technology based nations but they will catch up. And its will be sooner than you think.

It would have been logical to build them while the Cold War was active (although China may not have had the technology).

The will to create and use stealth aircraft has been around for the last 40 years but only in the last 10 years has the cost of the technology required begun to drop to affordable levels. Then there are issues around a skilled workforce which swings on the level of education which in turn tends to depend on the wealth of the country. China is a perfect example. The political and economic isolation together with the massive population near or below the poverty line effectively made it impossible to progress to a large scale high tech nation. Until 20-30 years ago their own aerospace industry was focused on assembly of aircraft kits form Russia and their own copies of the same. Now with western investment (Airbus, EADS and Rolls Royce etc) they are slowly but steadily increasing in capability and quality.

The reasons why nations are now turning to stealth is pretty straight forward if you think about it:

• - Stealth = survivability - The cost of operating aircraft is spiralling which means you can afford less airframes. Stealthy aircraft reduce the risk of them being shot down giving you - arguably - a better longer term return on your investment
  
• - Radars have improved massively. its now possible to detect an attacker 100s of Km away. Stealthy aircraft reduces the range at which they are detectable
  
• - SAMs are more effective. As well as radar, tracking, guidance and rocket motors are now far more reliable.
  
• - Technology required to support it is far more accessible. High quality CNC machines, autoclaves are commercially available whereas during the cold war the machines used to make the U2,SR71, F-117 and B-2 were classified. Now they can be found in pretty much every industrial park in the west.

In this thread I just wanted to clearify that U.S. military industry will repeat mistakes, done by Russians in 1980's, in case they cease further developments of 5th generation stealth fighters and roll back to extensive upgrades of current production aircraft like F-15E or F-16E.

I can assure you the US aerospace industry wants to progress but the US government cannot afford to keep pouring money into ever more expensive and irrelevant projects. By that i mean the world we live in is now more than ever interdependent. A large scale war between 1st world nations is economically unthinkable. So the high tech threat level is reduced. The threats these days are terrorist ones or wars that threaten to destabilise regions. Where more often than not the tech level is far lower than most 1st world militaries are geared for. Afghanistan is the prime example.

The biggest mistake done by Russians is that they actually stopped any technological progress in area of military aviation with the development of Su-27 and Mig-29. I remember those times (beginning and mid 1990's) when there were only constant screaming by Sukhoi and Mig companies: "We have developed the most agile aircraft in the world! Su-27 can perform a Cobra maneuver thus it beats F-15 to pieces, and F-16 have nothing against the Bell maneuvers of Mig-29!".

Were they that stupid to think that F-15 and F-16 will be the most sophisticated jets U.S. is able to develop, that there were no more researches and future programs going on? Were they that stupid to not to see that all air combat is moving all the way to BVR after Gulf War in 1991? What did they get in the result?

Still the same Su-27 and Mig-29 platforms after 19 years, mysterious, non-production Su-47 Berkut, Mig 1.44 and PAK-FA and ongoing production of F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning II at their opponent's.

You're looking at this from an "ideal world" viewpoint. Yes, in an ideal world they would have kept up with tech developments but their national economy and standard of education wasn't up to the task. The Soviet Union may have fallen literally over night but the problems that led up to is were building up for 30 years.

MiG and Sukhoi did develop some of the most agile and aerodynamically superior aircraft ever seen. But mated to the avionics and engines of the time it didn't make them better warplanes. The low speed demonstrations at airshows while impressive are of no use in the BVR and high speed WVR engagements favoured by western aircraft so were irrelevant.

No matter how impressive an aircraft looks in the flesh or on paper the measure of how good it is, is how well if fares in combat. And how relevant it is to the warzone its deployed in. Those aircraft were designed for the Cold War and World War III where they would be fighting against other fighter aircraft. In todays world there are no high tech military threats to large nations, at least none that justify a $210million dollar fighter.

[An-225 0]

Most of the stealth projects I have seen now seem to be half-assed jobs. Its that mentality, stealth at an affordable price, that makes me think that the quality will be lower.

Will the J-XX, PAK-FA, F-35 or ATD-X match the F-117s stealth (which itself was shot down in Kosovo)? That is an interesting question right now. I guess we will have to wait and see the foreign designs for ourselves...

[PhilippRauch 0]

Maybe interesting to some if not already mentioned:

Paint Makes Things Invisible to Radar:

http://www.defensetech.org/archives/004168.html

An a bit more indepth article about this by Spiegel online (dont worry its in english ;) ):

http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/0,1518,551152,00.html

[Baff1 0]

The biggest mistake done by Russians is that they actually stopped any technological progress in area of military aviation ...

Were they that stupid to think that....

Frankly the idea that they might have done is so arrogant it's laughable.

I understand you dislike the Russians mate, but to just assume they are idiots because you hate them makes a fool out of yourself.

Sukhoi T-50.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/04/24/213364/picture-russian-sukhoi-t-50-fighter-images-emerge.html

[ig]http://www.paralay.com/t50/rz1.jpg[/img]>100kb

Edited April 22, 2009 by Placebo

[Baff1 0]

Thats a fair enough point. What I don't understand though, is why said communist countries waited until a few years ago. It would have been logical to build them while the Cold War was active (although China may not have had the technology).

You don't get to go shopping until you've got some money.

It's the same reason why U.S. research and development is being placed on ice.

[Saint Warrior 10]

Sukhoi T-50 announced

Feeding nation with loud announcements is the rulling style of the modern Russian government. But unfortunately those announcements do not have any obvious implementations.

Do you know, how many Su-27SM (Su-35 like modernization programme) fighters they managed to supply to their Air Forces so far? Two regiments. That means something about 40 fixed wing aircraft. During period of Everest high oil prices. Man, Poland has ordered, paid for, purchased and received 48 F-16's Block 52+. Poland and Russia...how do you like such comparison?

They cannot launch their single (rather weak) Zhuk-E AESA into serial production due to constant problems, but continue to announce that Irbis-E will be all the way better than APG-77(V1).

They criticise AIM-120 Amraam missiles, but actually do not have own production facilities for air-to-air missile manufacturing at all. Cause all of them were left in Ukraine after the break down of the Soviet Union, and they are using munitions from large reserves, inherited from USSR and Cold War era.

[Baff1 0]

Lmao @ Poland.

I suggest you consult your history books for comparisons of Russia and Poland.

Russia can throw bricks at the Polish airforce and still overrun the country in a day.

They'd never even get off the ground mate.

Eastern European posturing is just that. Posturing.

There would be armour on the runway before the Polish pilot had rubbed his bleary eyes awake.

Even the concept that the Russians would need air to air missiles over former Soviet countries is comedic.

All their air defences are built facing the other direction.

As for feeding the nation with loud announcements, it's seems to me, that when Russia does it it's a joke, but when America does it, it's correct, if I'm reading you right?

Every country makes loud prideful announcements about their militaries.

Edited April 22, 2009 by Baff1

[Placebo 28]

Baff1 please don't hotlink images >100kb, you're not new to the rules here.

Please dial down the pro/anti "insert country here" rhetoric everyone, if you can't debate the issue civilly and without an insulting/derogatory tone the thread will be closed.

[PhilippRauch 0]

The ex-soviet scientist are much further in terms of electromagnetics and related areas of advanced physics, some of it isnt even looked at by western counterparts... maybe thats why they dont really are interested in stealth technology... because they just switch on some secret 'beamshield' and the minds of any pilot, even in stealth aircraft is gone... who knows exactly...

Just look at what 'civilian' companies come up with in terms of advanced electronics today, like pain induced by microwaves or some accoustic systems currently in use by police/military. Directed energy and whatnot. Hell even the US military has some patents from the 70s which contain 'microwave area denial' systems and such. And all this stuff is only what surfaces now and only in fragments.

I remember some statement by an US general it was something like ''What the Army has now in terms of secret technology is already 20 years ahead of what is available for the civilian market right now. Imagine what the intelligence agencies might have since those are themselves 20 years ahead of what the army has right now."

I just think both sides just have totally different tactics and strategies regarding almost everything... the soviet even had (still have not?) 'proper' socks since they think a triangular shaped cloth is, wrapped correctly, better than knit socks...

[Saint Warrior 10]

Russia can throw bricks at the Polish airforce and still overrun the country in a day.

That sounds like that joke, said by Russian former minister of defence Pavel Grachev - "We need only one parachute regiment to take Grozny during the first Chechen War". The outcome of that war was notorius - more than 4500 dead during 2 years of intense fighting and Hasaviurt peace treaty, resulting in de facto loss of the rebel territory.

Speaking seriously, 48 Polish Air Force Block 52+ F-16s is already an air force of really formidable strength if it's command is able to manage it properly, cause they can:

- establish air superiority over all territory of Poland

- carry out precision strikes at russian strategic objects in Kaliningrad region, cutting off supply routes from Russia's mainland

- jam and destroy S-300 SAMs

I consider Polish Air Force to be one of the Europe's strongest and most modern one at this moment.

[PhilippRauch 0]

Yes, i also believe its not so much about firepower these days but more of controlling/commanding those assets properly AND even more important in shortest time possible! And this is where most western countries excel, at their level of communications compared to other. I believe if all had the same realtime and quality of communications the wars would really rely on firepower or number of assets, or rather even the fighting spirit and there the westerners (and even soviets) lack quite a lot due to 'happyhappyjoyjoy' livestyles back home...

[Baff1 0]

No Mr. I'm sorry, that's a nice airforce and all, and I'm sure Polish pilots are all excellently skilled. I'm not trying to knock them in anyway.

But they are outnumbered. Massively and vastly outnumbered.

Can every Polish fighter expect to kill 5-10 Russian fighters, is their tech advantage that pronounced? Can they even carry enough missiles to shoot that many down? No.

Can they carry enough bombs to stop a Russian armoured advance on their airstrips? No.

Can they re-arm after their runways have been destroyed by cruise missiles? No.

That is not an air superiority force vs Russia.

It is a strategic point I am attempting to make to you.

There is such a thing as overwhelming force. It is not just a question of how smart your weapons are, how many you have is also a factor.

Given that you raised the conflict, I think it's only fair to point out that the Chechen Airforce didn't get off the ground. Had they had F-16's or even F22's it would have made exactly zero difference to that conflict.

@ Placebo.

Message received loud and clear Sir, thank you for your patience.

Edited April 22, 2009 by Baff1

[Saint Warrior 10]

Can every Polish fighter expect to kill 5-10 Russian fighters, is their tech advantage that pronounced?

It is very likely, you know. Remember all Israeli-Arabian wars, especially air battle over Bekaa valley, where Syrian and Egypt planes were downed one after another, just like drones at training sessions.

[Baff1 0]

@ Bekaa valley, a 4:1 numerically superior air force defeated a numerically inferior one.

What a surprise.

The Israeli's said that the Syrians were not able to mount a massed attack on them but instead were simply picked off one by one.

The Polish Airforce can expect the same from the Russians.

In the Six Day War most of the destroyed airplanes never made it off the ground. (Again defeated by a numerically superior force).

It makes no difference whether you are flying a Cessna or F22 when you are parked on the runway.

At the end of the Six Day War new Russian made SAM's were installed which defeated the IAF.

At Bekaa valley, the Israeli's had full reconaissance of all enemy SAM sites and had planned for, practised and pre-targeted the assault for two years. They destroyed the lot.

Today, Russians have mobile SAM sites.

The Israeli's make radar jamming EW and AWACS systems in conjunction with the Russians, not the Polish.

These systems have proven themselves in battle over Syria within the last 12 months.

Edited April 22, 2009 by Baff1

[Dwarden 1124]

you two please stop the poland bickering ...

everyone knowns that only way how stop overhelming force is to own WMD la nukes (just look on France and Israel) ...

in that case 1 single bomb or missile (from submarine, mobile launcher or plane) stops any though of invading ...

so wanna peace ... more nukes needed ;)

[fumo 0]

so wanna peace ... more nukes needed ;)

That's sadly true :(

[Baff1 0]

you two please stop the poland bickering ...

everyone knowns that only way how stop overhelming force is to own WMD la nukes (just look on France and Israel) ...

in that case 1 single bomb or missile (from submarine, mobile launcher or plane) stops any though of invading ...

so wanna peace ... more nukes needed ;)

That's not wholly true.

NATO wargames planned for lightning assaults.

If the enemy can get in close enough fast enough, you can't nuke them because they are in your cities or your allies cities.

The Soviets were predicted to do lightning invasions and keep their armies too close to ours to get nuked.

An example of how fast they move was Kosovo airport. They were at their objective before our intelligence reported they had left.

In the Cold War, it wasn't possible to plan for a nuclear defence only, conventional parity was still a requirement.

Edited April 23, 2009 by Baff1

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

I found this while surfing the Aerospace news sites this morning. Seems the F-22 is getting shot down by trainers now :rolleyes:

All good fun. But it just goes to show even a $8million 40 year old plane flown properly can ream a $210 million "Stealth" aircraft.