Grass

[bravo 6 0]

bravo 6, AI is probably affected.

yet not in to the degree and way you want it to be.

i am not saying its fine as it is, yet $cruffy has a point.

No!

From all kind of tests i have done with wheat fields as clutter, even if you are in the lowest possible position in ArmA, (prone position), enemy or friendly AIs, can see and follow the target with no difficulty, as if nothing was there to stop their sight. Both teams, friendly and enemy, were in these wheat fields as clutter.

Once tested from a 800m distance from enemy AIs, my AIs squad and the enemy AIs were in prone position and both squads were in the wheat fields as clutter.

All AIs could see every thing, detecting every target! My AIs squad detected and communicated all enemy AIs targets.

The only blind one there was the human.

edit: I forgot to mentioned that all Ais started to fire once they found a target while in prone position and in these fields as clutter.

[scruffy 21]

bravo 6, so the problem is the clutter model, not the grass layer, right?

Because the grass layer definitely works, there is a difference when playing with grass deactivated.

So the problem now is that you can't change the height of the grass layer according to the clutter model you use?

That really should be changed for ArmA 2

[.kju 3239]

bravo 6 there are scripting commands to check ai.

plain subjective observation does not count.

[bravo 6 0]

@$cruffy: I wouldn't say the problem is in the model it self, its more how the clutter "sees/set" the model.

Per example: if you define a tree model as clutter, i believe AIs will be able to see trough it as if the tree isn't there. See what i mean?

My wheat fields work properly if they are set as objects like a tree but the exact same model do not have the same behavior if used as clutter.

@Q: since i don't understand much of scripting, nor build such in order to test it properly, i use common sense based on what i have experienced and what i have seen/felt in game.

edit: Q: can you please direct me to a good script so i can test it with it?

edit2:

So the problem now is that you can't change the height of the grass layer according to the clutter model you use?

$cruffy, I don't understand what you mean?

[scruffy 21]

bravo, the AI seems to be only affected by the grass layer by what you say. This layer is everywhere where clutter is, in a small radius around the player it is shown as the clutter model. At least that's what I understand.

So if you use a bigger clutter model it should be able to influence the height of the grass layer, because this is the one actually influencing the sight of AI?

[bravo 6 0]

arggh..

What I'm saying is that AI do not recognize clutter at all in ArmA1.

Clutter does not affect AI sight in anyway.

AIs are only affected by Objects with Geometry, View Geometry, Fire Geometry LOds (with correct properties)

When an Object is set as Clutter it losses the LOD properties i mentioned, there for it will not work as we thing it would, meaning AI will be able to see trough it and fire.

edit1: i really don't understand what you mean when you use the word layer.

edit2:

Quote[/b] ]o if you use a bigger clutter model it should be able to influence the height of the grass layer

No. Thats what i mentioned in previous posts, didn't you read?

If my wheat fields (or if you prefer high grass) are taller then a house it does not affect in any way the Ais!

[SaBrE_UK 0]

Aren't the wheat fields unofficial clutters? Maybe the games can't code in different heights of grass. I'm sure Arma II will fix this, seeing a it has many different types of clutter.

[bravo 6 0]

Yes the wheat fields are unofficial, they were made by the community.

From several pictures and videos we can see there is high bright vegetation, maybe clutter, maybe not. But if they are clutter and if clutter have not been fixed due to this situation already mentioned, we will have a lot of problems with AI in those areas.

I hope your right, and hope BIS really fixed the problem of AI sight while in these clutter areas.

[.kju 3239]

try these:

http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/knowsAbout

http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/nearTargets

[scruffy 21]

bravo 6, that's what I meant. The grass layer is shown in my screenshot, it hovers approximately 20cm above the ground and is tied to the clutter, only when there is grass then there is also this layer in the distance. If you see it the other way around, the layer is everywhere where there has to be grass and is only shown as clutter models to the player when near.

So the AI does not need to react to clutter models if it already reacts properly to this clutter layer above the ground. But this layer has to properly correspond to the size of the model, because it seems to stay only a few centimeters high, no matter how big the clutter model actually is. The tech is there, it just needs to work properly.

[Second 0]

Yes the wheat fields are unofficial, they were made by the community.

From several pictures and videos we can see there is high bright vegetation, maybe clutter, maybe not. But if they are clutter and if clutter have not been fixed due to this situation already mentioned, we will have a lot of problems with AI in those areas.

I hope your right, and hope BIS really fixed the problem of AI sight while in these clutter areas.

I believe in (vanilla) SLX mod AI wasn't able to see thru grass if it was tall enough. Atleast it seemed that my ambushing troops were pretty much unable to do anything at some moments as they kept lying down.

One ArmA's and OFP problems (which is hard thing for many to understand in general) is that AI sees and AI "sees" (gets info from it's mates and gets glues from fired shots). Setting 12 AI's in one group wields generally very different results than 12 AI's which are all alone (not assigned groups).

AI's seeing abilities are modelled pretty well. Best system in any shooter game i think.

AI's "seeing", by which i mean information received from other group-mates, it's accuaracy and speed how it's delivered, is overmodeled.

[Maddmatt 1]

When an Object is set as Clutter it losses the LOD properties i mentioned, there for it will not work as we thing it would, meaning AI will be able to see trough it and fire.

Well clutter is only spawned a small distance around the camera so it would be weird if it had those properties. It is only meant to be visual, with a grass layer system affecting visibility.

If you want an object to have collision and be used as cover, then it should be made into an object and not clutter.

What is the point of having the clutter models block view like that when it's only spawned around the player?

[Peter_Bullet 0]

This morning I played ArmA. All my teammates were shot dead and I was lying in the grass and AI was running around. They didn't shoot me. When I got up (to shoot) the AI nailed me down pretty quickly.. Okay sorry, this is pretty subjective..

I think we all agree that it's not possible to fire a weapon when in prone position, because the grass blocks your view. So I think it would be nice if there were grassles patches (or patches where the grass is shorter) all over the fields so you could fire a weapon when In prone position. Like in the mountains. Also I'm not sure if in real world grass grows as tall as in ArmA...

This is kinda a pain in the ass because the grass is everywhere. I really do love the Full-auto firing mode

And for those interested in Hardware rendering:

Someone was talking about hardware and that reminded me...

http://developer.nvidia.com/docs/IO/8230/BatchBatchBatch.pdf

3D cards are getting more and more powerful all the time (more triangles), but processors aren't (not so much more batches). So efficient Batching becomes crucial in any game. But couldn't all the grass be rendered in one huge batch, thus taking full advantage of the growing capabilities of the 3D hardware?

I think that in no time 3D cards will be powerful enough to render pretty grass at long distances...

I didn't know you could tweak the grass draw distance in Arma. Wich file, wich line?

[De_little_Bubi 1]

I think we all agree that it's not possible to fire a weapon when in prone position, because the grass blocks your view. So I think it would be nice if there were grassles patches (or patches where the grass is shorter) all over the fields so you could fire a weapon when In prone position. Like in the mountains. Also I'm not sure if in real world grass grows as tall as in ArmA...

This is kinda a pain in the ass because the grass is everywhere. I really do love the Full-auto firing mode

What? You're not sure if in real world grass grows as tall as in ArmA? Never saw grass? Anywhere? TV?

If you don't cut it, it can grow very tall. (normal gras up to 50cm, special sorts up to 2,5 meter and above!

And i cant remember, that there is gras on stone hills?

[Peter_Bullet 0]

In my country we have only forests (thee trees haven't been cut down like in the rest of Europe), so all the grass I see is in the cities and has been cut... :P didn't get to see any grass even in the army, only trees

In the ArmA mountains there are these rocky spots where there is no grass and then these green spots where there is grass.. Something like that could also be used in the fields so you could find a better firing position.

Anyway, it's truly a pity that you can no longer use full auto.. But I'm very glad that BIS didn't go overly realistic with their weapon handling. In real life you couldn't shoot while standing..

Ps. BF2: Point Of Existence had grass that rendered very far away.

[De_little_Bubi 1]

some spots out of my region: Moor

Fields

Old Castle

More fields^^

As you can see, there arent much spots without gras :/ Maybe on some dirty pathes between the fields.

Yeah generaly on streets you wont find grass

[Pyronick 21]

arggh..

What I'm saying is that AI do not recognize clutter at all in ArmA1.

Clutter does not affect AI sight in anyway.

AIs are only affected by Objects with Geometry, View Geometry, Fire Geometry LOds (with correct properties)

When an Object is set as Clutter it losses the LOD properties i mentioned, there for it will not work as we thing it would, meaning AI will be able to see trough it and fire.

edit1: i really don't understand what you mean when you use the word layer.

edit2:

Quote[/b] ]o if you use a bigger clutter model it should be able to influence the height of the grass layer

No. Thats what i mentioned in previous posts, didn't you read?

If my wheat fields (or if you prefer high grass) are taller then a house it does not affect in any way the Ais!

This is why we really need full realtime raytracing.

And not only on graphical level, but the whole game should operate from the drawn map, including the audio processing layer.

Realtime raytracing can also do sound occlusion, AI visual sensory would be affected by a WYSIWYG-like recognition.

[Second 0]

In my country we have only forests (thee trees haven't been cut down like in the rest of Europe), so all the grass I see is in the cities and has been cut... :P didn't get to see any grass even in the army, only trees

This is so true. Luckly there's few small meadows (old wheat fields left to grow wildly in middle of forest) in vicinity of my living place, i like to hike thru them often. 50-100 cm is regular length there at middle to late summer. Well it' not green grass (to which i associate word grass to), but more like wildly growing hay (which has hollow cane). Dunno which is technically correct term thou in english.

In ArmA we have pretty tall (wild) hay, to groin height at least, it's density per square meter is just very low. In meadows i've traveled that wild tall hay has taken control.

[dm 9]

What I'm saying is that AI do not recognize clutter at all in ArmA1.

Clutter does not affect AI sight in anyway.

Why do the civilian AI hide behind the clutter rocks when you shoot at them then?

[bravo 6 0]

What I'm saying is that AI do not recognize clutter at all in ArmA1.

Clutter does not affect AI sight in anyway.

Why do the civilian AI hide behind the clutter rocks when you shoot at them then?

I would like to see a picture of those "clutter rocks" you refer.

I ask this because the clutter rocks that exist, normally the model is smaller then the grass.

Though if you mean the big rocks we eventually see in the map? Those are objects, not clutters.

[dm 9]

I would like to see a picture of those "clutter rocks" you refer.

As long as you can wait until tuesday

(Am on my eeepc atm, and arma does not want )

[bravo 6 0]

hey dumb ass shall we wait more for your pic or what?

[Sniperwolf572 758]

hey dumb ass shall we wait more for your pic or what?

bravo6, +1WL and 48 hour PR.

[HKFlash 9]

bravo 6 you should really take a pill and forget all this "grass" stuff! LOL Its getting on your nerves!

[Jensen1 0]

How about having the grass like in joint ops? It worked no matter how far out you were looking and it concealed soldiers quite well.

Loved how it was in Joint Ops...