One question that MANY fans care about.

[walker 0]

Hi TurkeyBurgers

As I pointed out ArmA runs to all forms of PvP and not just the twitch forms of CTF and Death Match but also the slower paced C&H and PvP Coop (You may have played something like that in BF) and yes it plays Coop too.

You can, just play confined paintball style CTF missions in ArmA if you want, the mission editor is second to none so making whatever you like is easy and many people create such missions so there will be 100s to download, but that is a little like taking a Bugatti Veyron for a tootle to the corner shop; you might look good doing it to some people but really if that is all you do, the people who count will think you are a numptie.

I do not think you should equate ArmA AI with anything you have seen in any other game. The litany of former BF/COD4/CS players who made the assumption ArmA AI was stupid and then got their Leet backsides kicked from one, end of mission, to the other because they did not learn basic TTP, is endless.

And the amount of them that then come and whine on the forums because the dumb AI beat them is amazing. I would be ashamed to admit a dumb AI beat me, being beat by an intelligent AI on the other hand...

If you are not good enough to beat the ArmA AI, at least some of the time, it is obvious you will not last a second in ArmA PvP against the people who can. That said ArmA clans are always looking for Leet/Noobs they can batter into shape. Assuming you are going to beat everyone in ArmA because you are Leet in BF project reality is only going to embarrass you.

One thing you may not be aware of, is the number of real soldiers who play ArmA. They do so because of all the FPS games ArmA is closest to reality. That is also why its pro version VBS has become the "De-Facto simulator" for NATO. Those people who you see one day playing the coops in ArmA and another the PvP ArmA games are often serving or former special forces guys in their day job.

Kind Regards walker

Edited April 15, 2009 by walker

[maddogx 13]

I don't know if this has been said before (didn't bother reading the entire 30+ page "threadnought"), but whether or not ArmA (or ArmA2 for that matter) was/is "made for PvP" is beside the point. The community runs the servers, the community makes the majority of the maps, the community decides which maps are popular and which aren't - so people crying "moar PvP!!" and "coop is for noobz!!" might aswell be shouting at a brick wall. All you're really saying is, "I don't like the way everybody else is playing this game. Play it differently!".

That's just not going to work. Even if BIS makes a vast array of PvP missions, mission makers will still be making their own - many of which will be coop, and some will still be very high quality. Fact is, if the majority of players prefer to play coop, they will play coop (*gasp*). It's not like BIS can start dictating which missions are to be hosted and played on third party servers anyway. At the end of the day, if PvP is still unpopular in ArmA2, there's nothing anyone can do about it - except if you want to try creating and promoting extremely high quality PvP missions and host them (exclusively) on a couple of high performance servers.

[Cardhu 0]

That's a funny statement.

You're wrong, these "noobs" just like diff kind of gameplay, it is not they aren't capable of, they just don't want/don't like to.

I think you pretty much missed the point, ArmA is a good game for PvP battles, just the game is even more suitable for people looking for a strategic and slow paced gameplay which involves cooperation and tactics.

...

Exactly.

Hi TurkeyBurgers

As I pointed out ArmA runs to all forms of PvP and not just the twitch forms of CTF and Death Match but also the slower paced C&H and PvP Coop (You may have played something like that in BF) and yes it plays Coop too.

You can, just play confined paintball style CTF missions in ArmA if you want, the mission editor is second to none so making whatever you like is easy and many people create such missions so there will be 100s to download, but that is a little like taking a Bugatti Veyron for a tootle to the corner shop; you might look good doing it to some people but really if that is all you do, the people who count will think you are a numptie.

I do not think you should equate ArmA AI with anything you have seen in any other game. The litany of former BF/COD4/CS players who made the assumption ArmA AI was stupid and then got their Leet backsides kicked from one, end of mission, to the other because they did not learn basic TTP, is endless.

And the amount of them that then come and whine on the forums because the dumb AI beat them is amazing. I would be ashamed to admit a dumb AI beat me, being beat by an intelligent AI on the other hand...

If you are not good enough to beat the ArmA AI, at least some of the time, it is obvious you will not last a second in ArmA PvP against the people who can. That said ArmA clans are always looking for Leet/Noobs they can batter into shape. Assuming you are going to beat everyone in ArmA because you are Leet in BF project reality is only going to embarrass you.

One thing you may not be aware of, is the number of real soldiers who play ArmA. They do so because of all the FPS games ArmA is closest to reality. That is also why its pro version VBS has become the "De-Facto simulator" for NATO. Those people who you see one day playing the coops in ArmA and another the PvP ArmA games are often serving or former special forces guys in their day job.

Kind Regards walker

Very well said.

Edited April 16, 2009 by Cardhu
Added content.

[whisper 0]

1) Imho you'll see that many PvP addicts or, as Coop noobs like to call them, Twitch Kiddies (after all, if we are going to only post brainless generalizations, then let's do it in true style form) are not really agreeing with OP's idea to force BI to make PvP "maps" (simply because the OFP/ArmA mission editor and mission download system makes it a moot point)

2) BUT (and this has nothing to do with the OP), they'd like to have a fun and playable form of somewhat twitchy PvP (not asking for Quake, here, mind you), something ArmA failed to deliver, unlike OFP. Because of bugs, performance and animations, things that were fine (or fine enough) in OFP.

If you really think such demand (point 2) is irrational, plz answer this : What necessary ArmA feature destroyed the fun that Twitch Kiddies had in OFP? I see none, so I don't see any drawback in making both Coop Noobs and Twitch Kiddies happy of the ArmA2 product.

Stop acting like the 2 communities (is there really 2?) can't coexist, they did in OFP

[4 IN 1 0]

1) Imho you'll see that many PvP addicts or, as Coop noobs like to call them, Twitch Kiddies (after all, if we are going to only post brainless generalizations, then let's do it in true style form) are not really agreeing with OP's idea to force BI to make PvP "maps" (simply because the OFP/ArmA mission editor and mission download system makes it a moot point)

2) BUT (and this has nothing to do with the OP), they'd like to have a fun and playable form of somewhat twitchy PvP (not asking for Quake, here, mind you), something ArmA failed to deliver, unlike OFP. Because of bugs, performance and animations, things that were fine (or fine enough) in OFP.

If you really think such demand (point 2) is irrational, plz answer this : What necessary ArmA feature destroyed the fun that Twitch Kiddies had in OFP? I see none, so I don't see any drawback in making both Coop Noobs and Twitch Kiddies happy of the ArmA2 product.

Stop acting like the 2 communities (is there really 2?) can't coexist, they did in OFP

+1

orthrough i dont like being marked as "Coop noobs":D

[Nigelwow 10]

the evolution maps in ArmA are great and i played it every time again

[PuFu 4591]

the evolution maps in ArmA are great and i played it every time again

evolution maps don't really stress coop really, and if you ask me, is one of the worst thing that happened to public servers in arma.

even so, this whole thread is pretty much useless. Throwing words at each other rather than finding a solution (in most cases), not to say that requesting PvP to work similar to other PvP games out there is idiotic since arma is on the other end of the game spectrum

but hell, everyone has the right to post whatever he wants as long as it stays within bis rules

[-Total- 0]

As I stated earlier in this thread, I made several missions using the AAS template. From urban infantry only to infantry w/ tanks, and all out war using infantry, armor, and air assets.

So, if I take Domination off of my server (which keeps it populated nightly I might add) and replace it with PvP missions that utilize the communication, strategic, and tactical requirements ArmA employs then my server should be expected to fill up over the following week with the hordes of PvP seekers right?

If they are out there waiting, then why didn't this happen the last 5 times I uploaded PvP missions from AAS to Berzerk, to whatever Pvp mission I downloaded at armaholic and advertised it here that a PvP server was up?

The answer: Cuz those same PvP players came up with every reason in the world as to why PvP cannot work in ArmA. The simple fact of the matter is that PvP in ArmA takes too much coordination and strategic sense as an entire team for most random pubbers.

[Louden 10]

Does CTI count as PvP? Because I remember that being very popular on OFP, and obviously couldn't have been further away from arcade style fps?

I'm new to this debate so forgive me. But I played OFP and skipped ARMA and now I want in again on ARMA 2. I'd be sad and confused if there were no CTI style matches going on in ARMA 2, of course making small little maps and CTF like Hexenkessel holds not alot of appeal to me, it's like using an F-22 to settle a bar dispute, but do people believe there wont be large scale PvP like CTI on arma 2? :confused:

[wipman 1]

Hi, the main problem that i see on the PvP games are the number of players that can play

on the same map (area) without take down the performance; you can't place 50 vs 50 human

players on the same map without ruin the game's performance. Also, where do you think that

you gonna find 100 players to play ones versus others?, not only in a serious way, just that

want to play; and PvP on which conditions? an assault to take one possition?, a hill? a valley?

a bridge? or a part of a city?. Because the people refuse to play let's say... a defend the

base mission; with the internal guard patrols, the exterior patrols, sniper teams arround the

base, posibility of use the base's ground and air vehicles, people assigned to the defend of

certain vital structures of that base or FARP; where you think that you gonna find people

with the patience, will, time and disciplyne to do all that as they should?.

What the people want it's quick fun, something not that limited and where they've a good

ammount of "rambo style" freedom of movement/action. No one whant to play something

like that; half of the players on booth teams go "rambo style" while the other half becomes

defenseless because half of the vehicles and men go at their own while they try to follow

the orders with half of the resources for the attack or the defense. A serious PvP mission

it's impossible with the engine, the players and the computers that we've. The serious PvP

it's more for a Squad/Squads based PvP VBS2 (training engine) than for this one. Let's C ya

[Frantic 0]

...A serious PvP mission it's impossible with the engine, the players and the computers that we've. The serious PvP it's more for a Squad/Squads based PvP VBS2 (training engine) than for this one. Let's C ya

Sorry, but i have to disagree on that one.

The engine offers nearly everything what many PvP players like me are looking for.

I can create a lot of different styles of PvP game-modes with the mission-scripting language and i can create a lot of missions with different scenarios with the missions-editor.

Furthermore, ArmA already offered great player numbers possible on a good server, so i dont think that ArmAII will suddenly have lower numbers possible.

In addition, clan PvP matches are really a different story compared to public PvP action.

In OFP we had clan sizes of max 15 players online and ready for a match and normally the maximum of players were just something around 7vs7.

In ArmA we can have double as much players possible on a normal server without having a lag-party and therefor im really curious how many players will be possible on a standard server at ArmAII.

However, for clan PvP matches like in CTF are player numbers of 10vs10 big enough, but if you wanna play C&H more than 15vs15 are definitely better and i see a great potential for nice C&H action in ArmAII.

Many old PvP players from OFP days fear that ArmAII will be just a better looking ArmA with more weapons and vehicles and no changes at the animations, movements and controls of the infantry units.

Personally, I just wanna have that great feeling back from OFP where i really thought that im running over that field or sneaking through a forest and not that robotic feeling of ArmA where i always think that i control a robot.

Many PvP players just wanna have fluid movements and instant controls in ArmAII for the infantry units because thats missing in ArmA compared to OFP!

The rest of the great features of OFP is still available in ArmA and will be in ArmAII, like a whole world to move on without borders every few meters and the freedom of doing whatever you want on that world or with the engine! ;)

[rasdenfasden 12]

Hi, the main problem that i see on the PvP games are the number of players that can play

on the same map (area) without take down the performance; you can't place 50 vs 50 human

players on the same map without ruin the game's performance. Also, where do you think that

you gonna find 100 players to play ones versus others?, not only in a serious way, just that

want to play; and PvP on which conditions? an assault to take one possition?, a hill? a valley?

a bridge? or a part of a city?. Because the people refuse to play let's say... a defend the

base mission; with the internal guard patrols, the exterior patrols, sniper teams arround the

base, posibility of use the base's ground and air vehicles, people assigned to the defend of

certain vital structures of that base or FARP; where you think that you gonna find people

with the patience, will, time and disciplyne to do all that as they should?.

What the people want it's quick fun, something not that limited and where they've a good

ammount of "rambo style" freedom of movement/action. No one whant to play something

like that; half of the players on booth teams go "rambo style" while the other half becomes

defenseless because half of the vehicles and men go at their own while they try to follow

the orders with half of the resources for the attack or the defense. A serious PvP mission

it's impossible with the engine, the players and the computers that we've. The serious PvP

it's more for a Squad/Squads based PvP VBS2 (training engine) than for this one. Let's C ya

What you basically did with this post is say something that's been done before in ArmA very often is impossible.

Really. Look into the numerous PvP tournaments.

[celery 8]

...

Exactly.

I have NEVER played PvP in ArmA where people truly co-operated with their team to accomplish the objective.

And the *current* engine simply does not excel in CQC, in which many PvPs take place. I have played a few PvP games, and it truly degrades to a crappy wannabe CoD.

If you want CoD - or BF2 - go play either one of those. I am a CoD player. And I love it, it is brilliant for some quick fun. But don't try turning ArmA into CoD or BF, and certainly don't turn it into a competition. This is the only game of its kind which the public can readily access. Don't degrade from its sim qualities.

How can you declare your ignorance about the things you talk about and still keep a straight face? If you have NEVER played pvp in ArmA, I suggest that you don't talk about it because you look quite stupid that way. Pvp in OFP was lots of fun and it's very fun in ArmA as well if you don't let the animations get to you, so don't try to tell that the engine isn't good enough when it's better than in Call of Duty or Unreal Tournament.

"Go play game X" is the epitome of the lack of understanding around here, congratulations. Why would I want to play Call of Duty or Battlefield 2 when I want to play Armed Assault against other humans? How is it difficult to understand that they are completely different games? The only thing that's the same is that you can play against fellow humans in all of them, and in all of them it's still radically different.

[guerilla -MCY- 0]

somehow it's funny how the same discussion goes on 'n on since years without a comment by BIS. well no comment is also a comment. i just checked the latest demo vids by some Hungarian ArmA 2 Preview and i'm still seeing the same controls. it seems like moving over a pdf file with the hand sign instead of having this old ofp1985 feeling, to be in the action. i guess we have to bare in mind, that this same engine is used for vbs, where those control bugs (i call it so, sorry) seem to be wished for a proper sim, even doh you should be able to take full control over your equipment with experience, what's actually not possible like in arma1 and arma2 as it looks. well actually i don't care anymore as i gonna buy both games anyway and i guess i'll end up in ofp2 as they try make a game simulating war instead of a simulator which simulates a game -> fun?.

[An-225 0]

I have played PvP in ArmA. I thought that was clear. My point was, that hardly anyone actually worked as a team! Don't counter with a "but you are not playing in a clan" argument. There is more teamwork in public servers in BF and CoD.

I've seen numerous geometry problems, as well as difficult handling in close quarters. I'm sure everyone here has gotten stuck while navigating through a house. ArmA just does not excel at being a twitch game.

For a game that I just want to play out of the box, without the hassle of clans, BF and CoD seem far superior.

[Binkowski 25]

I enjoyed PvP in ArmA however, my heart's with the classic co-ops that are SUPER realistic, down the the right load outs, no weapon crates where you can magically change your weapon. Etc etc.

[S!fkaIaC 10]

I was reading through a lot of posts in this thread, it is obvious that we all have different understanding what PvP is about. What are the characteristics? Once this is common, we could finally start to struggle.

PvP missions must have IMHO:

- no respawn

- no AI

- utilization of realistic mods like WGL/ACE

If you think I am wrong, slap me.

[walker 0]

Hi all

Everyone has their opinion of what PvP is.

They are all valid.

I must admit I too am not much of a fan of the paintball forms such as DM and CTF.

I do not think they are the forms of PvP that MANY fans care about.

True PvP for me has to be realism based. I want complexity not simplicity. If I want simplicity I will play space invaders.

Kind Regards walker

[celery 8]

I was reading through a lot of posts in this thread, it is obvious that we all have different understanding what PvP is about. What are the characteristics? Once this is common, we could finally start to struggle.

PvP missions must have IMHO:

- no respawn

- no AI

- utilization of realistic mods like WGL/ACE

If you think I am wrong, slap me.

The only requirement for a pvp mission is that a player fights against another player. Everything else is details up to personal preference, pvp is a category containing almost every multiplayer game mode that isn't coop. Pvp in ArmA is simply ArmA against other players instead of AI, the game is the same.

Call of Duty pvp = Playing Call of Duty against other people

ArmA pvp = Playing Armed Assault against other people

There is a difference.

[Crazyfox 0]

So who will set up a TvT server for arma2 then?

A server with mandatory team play, containing only TvT missions with no respawn.

Ive never seen such server on Arma.

Plz set one up for Arma2 and I'll play there all the time. :292:

[maddogx 13]

ArmA just does not excel at being a twitch game.

That's one point I agree with.

Other than that, looking at the last few posts, there seems to be some disagreement over the actual definition of PvP. I tend to agree with Celery, i.e. PvP simply means playing a game against other players. Any further definitions are just subsets of the general concept. For example:

- no AI = "Pure PvP"

- no respawn = "Ultra-Realistic PvP"

- mission based PvP (i.e. attack/defend) = "Counter Coop"

etc.

All of those are variations on PvP and are perfectly possible in the ArmA engine.

[Kitafe 10]

I think that the current type of PvP games mostly used by other games are not suited for ARMA(2), But this doesn’t mean it cannot not be done, they have to come up with new type of PvP, that will make teamwork and cautious(not sure I spelled it correct), the most fun way to play. Without making it boring.

They have to use the things that make this game different.

Use the big world, by given pvp objectives that follow each other up. This make traveling important, but will concentrated most players toward 1 point.

You could place some NPC’s at the objectives so that rushing is out of the question.

Make respawn only available but only if your helped by one of your teammates.

There are tons of possibilities, and I think that PVP can be a lot of fun in ARMA2

[maddogx 13]

Use the big world, by given pvp objectives that follow each other up. This make traveling important, but will concentrated most players toward 1 point.

You could place some NPC’s at the objectives so that rushing is out of the question.

Make respawn only available but only if your helped by one of your teammates.

What you are suggesting sounds a bit like a mixture of ArmA Warfare and Enemy Territory Quake Wars. Could be a lot of fun if done properly. ;)

There are tons of possibilities

Correction: the possibilities are almost infinite. With a lot of scripting and (in some cases) a bit of modding, you can turn ArmA into almost any game you want. With a forced camera view, a bunch of dialogs and some fancy scripting you could even emulate Command & Conquer.

[An-225 0]

I should elaborate, my experience with PvP in ArmA has only been a disorganised one.

Horrible mission designers placing tonnes of obstacles and objects just to "spruce" it up, which is really what ArmA is not about or should really be about.

Today I had a brilliant PvP experience. Today I took on a friend in a scenario where we both had a squad of five people, four computer controlled units and one human. The town of Pesto was being contested. Through superior placing of each of my units, I was able to conquer the city and destroy his squad. I can only imagine how much fun this would be with other players in my squad.

But mission designers tend to think otherwise. They spam useless objects, repeating the same ruined buildings/water towers/barrels/walls over and over, making gameplay extremely sluggish and unrealistic.

Deathmatches quickly degrade to CoD 4 run and gun gameplay, and to repeat myself, ArmA is not twitch friendly.

I should have elaborated more on my experiences with PvP earlier, and to summarise my point, most are simple deathmatches with horrendous object placing, which the game does not handle well.

[Crazyfox 0]

Having respawn in PvP missions automaticly makes it into a run n' gun game. Even if you have some respawning time or the respawn points are placed far away from the action this happends.

If you play without respawn, as soon as you enforce a little bit of team play you get an advantage.

BI should add some sort of round feature for Arma2. Something that could restart the mission fast when a mission is over. All this to lower waiting time for dead players which is the main reason people don't play without respawn.

Also if you play it right there isn't any long waiting. If you stay in your team, you either die with your team or kill the other team.

Ai can surely be used in PvP. They can add some flavour to the mission, like blocking some paths for one of the sides. But the main purpose shouldn't be to fight Ai when there are human players around.

Since some people here seems to long for some good PvP i hope we get some PvP servers for Arma2.