KA50 can shoot down aircraft in ArmA why?

[walker 0]

Hi all

This thread is just clear up some miss information about the VIKhR on the KA50 in ArmA and why it can shoot down aircraft but the Hellfire on the Cobra cannot.

It is particularly for the education of ricnunes and Legislator.

ricnunes I bow to your assurance of your superior knowledge of military aviation magazines.

However on the matter of the 9K121 VIKhR I have to point out that 90% of book and magazine sources from the 1990s and even to this date wrongly identify the 9A1472 VIKhR  (NATO Reporting name AT-16 Scallion)  as the 9M120 Ataka-V (NATO Reporting name AT-9 Spiral-2) and this was even reported in Jane's Air Launched Weapons, Issue thirty six but since most people in on this Forum do not have direct access to a full Janes subscription or the three or four thousand dollars it would cost them I refer you to the Federation of American Scientists. FAS is well respected on this forum.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/army/docs/st100-7/chapter03/C3V.htm

Which has the correct designation and description.

I will now detail why a VIKhR can be used as an AA missile but the Hellfire cannot; though the basics can be described as the KA50 with the VIKhR is a modern weapons platform and Cobra with Hellfire is a venerable but 40 year old platform.

1) KA50 and VIKhR  electronics are designed to target both Ground and Air targets. The Cobra and Hellfire electronics are not.

2) VIKhR  has a proximity fuse which allows a near miss of 5 m to detonate the warhead the Hellfire does not.

3) The VIKhR  has a speed of 600m/s, Mach 1.8 The Hellfire is only capable of Mach 1.3 425 m/s

4) The VIKhR  is designed to engage airborne target at closing speeds of up to 800 kilometres per hour the Hellfire is not.

5) The VIKhR  has a multi-purpose warhead; HEAT plus a fragmentation belt  the Hellfire does not.

And now to the real meat

6) The Hellfire on the Cobra is a Laser Designated ATGM where as the VIKhR  is "Laser beam rider SACLOS (lock on before launch)" I point you to the key words "Laser Beam Rider" there on the in FAS page. That is the key difference and why the VIKhR  can engage air targets where as the Hellfire never will. This then is the key reason why the KA50 armed VIKhRs in ArmA can shoot down aircraft as well as hit tanks where as the Cobra armed with Hellfire cannot.

7) The laser designator method used by the Cobra with Hellfire works in the same way as the old laser guided bombs of a decade ago. You light up the target with the laser designator and the Hellfire is fired toward it and a seeker on the front of the Hellfire guides the missile toward the light reflected back from the target.

7a) A "laser beam rider" is a whole different kettle of fish. There are only few of these weapons so far in the world the UK Star Streak has it for the terminal stage of the 3 warheads; the Russian Kornet that took out so many Merkava tanks in the Lebanon is another. There is a Swedish one designed by Bofors and another by a South African company who's name escapes me at the moment.

7b) A "laser beam rider" does not have a seeker on the front; instead there are rear facing non-imaging detectors that look back to the weapons platform in this case the KA50. So the Laser does not illuminate the target instead it provides a rail of light down which the VIKhRs guides itself.

7c) Because the laser designator has to illuminate the target there are a lot of disadvantages

7c i  ) Laser designators have to be big heavy and expensive in order to be powerful enough so that some of the light is reflected back for the seeker to guide on.

7c ii ) The seeker on a laser designator weapon has to be very high quality and consequently more delicate as it has to guide on the small amount of light reflected back from the target.

7c iii) The high power laser designator gives away the fact it has a lock to the target who can then employ countermeasures and evasion manoeuvres.

7c iv) With a laser designator the target can reduce reflection by use of absorbent paint and even netting

7c  v ) The  laser designators works best if it is reflecting off a tangential face on the target

7c v i) The laser designator has to be held on the target for the missile to guide, imagine how much time you can hold bead on a fast moving aircraft and when it is not painting the target it is painting clouds or ground clutter or thin air.

7c vii) With a laser designator the aspect ratio for the seeker is very narrow any fast moving vehicle can move out of the guidance cone.

7d) Because the "laser beam rider" or laser-beamrider does not illuminate the target there are a lot of advantages!

7d i  ) The laser used for a laser-beamrider can be much less powerful as it is direct light from the laser that guides the missile not weak reflected light from the target and therefore it can be lighter, cheaper and more rugged.

7d ii ) The detectors on a laser-beamrider are cheap mass produced rugged non-imaging detectors.

7d iii) The low power laser of the laser-beamrider is less likely to trip the laser lock detector of  the target as it is not as powerful and does not have to paint the target. As the Merkava tanks in Lebanon found out this means no laser lock warning in fact so much so that many Kornet kills were wrongly identified as unguided weapon kills in the early assessments which have since been revised.

Here have a read: http://www.israelmilitary.net/showthread.php?t=3749

For explanation read this

https://dspace.lib.cranfield.ac.uk/handle/1826/1047

7d iv ) Since the laser-beamrider does not have to paint the target absorbent paint or any other such countermeasures are nullified.

7d  v ) Laser of the beam rider does not need any reflecting surface

7d v i ) The laser beam rider does not need to be held on the target so it reflects for the missile to guide it only needs to be close to the direction of the target

7d vii ) With laser beam rider there is no seeker cone to worry about.

The SACLOS bit and the Lockon before launch bit should have given it away essentially this is a new variation on the wire guided missile. Except in this case it is laser not a wire. It is directed by the KA50s automatic locking on via a separate laser range finder and computerised lock on from FLIR and Radar which the pilot can supplement if they wish. The KA50 VIKhRs weapon system can lock up to 4 targets at once and can fire the VIKhRs in pairs against air targets to raise hit probability close to 100%

So that people is why the world ain't fair and neither is ArmA; and why the KA50 can knock down aircraft in ArmA but the Cobra can not.

Kind Regards walker

[sparks50 0]

Interesting, thanks.

[maddogx 13]

Wow. Great, detailed and convincing explanation.

Walker nails it.

[ARM505 0]

Perhaps it should be added that the Vikhr is not good against fast movers such as jets (which can move fast and pull a lot of g's to expend the missiles kinetic energy), and that it only has a '2D' control system, ie only one set of fins has a control surface. In practice, this results in the typical spiralling flight path, as it tries to keep itself centred in the beam, as seen in video's of it, as well as the simulation 'Lock on' with the FC addon, by Eagle Dynamics. The missile is therefore not so great at keeping up with a rapidly changing beam angle. Again, more reason that it cannot target fast or agile targets.

In practice, it's not as easy as ARMA makes it. The targeting system has to be slewed to the target (which doesn't just show up as a red block), and must then 'lock' the image of the target and be able to track it in order to make a successful shot. This is a lot more complicated than the 'press Tab' in ARMA, especially for a single pilot. The Russian system also seems to have restrictions on the time the guidance laser may be active before it risks overheating, and thus automatically shuts down.

The currently in development sim 'Black Shark' from the Lockon guys will no doubt present the best available PC simulation of the KA50 and the Vikhr system, on it's release (in one billion years time ).

Nonetheless, the OP is correct: The Vikhr CAN be fired against airborne targets, while the Hellfire CAN'T.

[whisper 0]

True, but ArmA representation is too easy, hit TAB, lock, fire, kill. Not really tested on targets moving fast. It was during Warfare mission, I killed most of my air opponents out of sight, I didn't know their real speed.

You'd expect Ka-50 to be one of the most difficult chopper to pilot and combat with. Simplified ArmA weapons systems kills that.

I'm going to take a look at technical ArmA specs for Ka-50

[sv5000 127]

Thanks for the informative read and the typing it took you to post it

[walker 0]

Hi all

ARM505 and whisper you are both correct in assessment of the weaknesses in the system.

ARM505 I missed that reference to the guidance laser overheating was that in the Janes article or some other source. Israeli assessment perhaps? Could you point me to the source article please?

Yes the spiral flight is a double edged sword as well as being a cost cutting and simplification exercise. I would like to see the VIKhRs in ArmA spiral more.

Designation of targets is by hand the computer then takes over by remembering what the target looks like in the Avionics sensor package.

A second problem is that while the guidance laser will not trigger a lock-on alert the KA50s laser range finder would!

In ArmA Lock-on Alert is needed.

In ArmA threats are automatically identified. A threat assessment package would not be out of the question in a later model such as the Ka-50-2 Erdogan from the Israeli company but no such auto aim is available in the KA50 and should not be available in ArmA.

You are correct that really fast moving aircraft are not threatened much by the VIKhRs.

Slower moving but agile fixed wings should be able to dodge VIKhRs but this depends on the Lock-on alert as stated above.

Kind regards walker

[whisper 0]

Shkval system in Flaming Cliffs (simulating a Su-25T platform, which has the same targetting than Ka-50, which is btw why ED is going to simulate a Ka-50 in their next sim, they already had the targetting pretty much done ) has a laser overheating in like 30s.

Lasers overheating exists on every laser guidance platform.

Aricraft lasing targets for LGB drops are limited in the same way, they can't lock and illuminate for ever.

As for laser lock detection, I doubt such a system is onboard of any chopper today. Meaning a lock by Ka-50 Shkval system will most probably NOT generate any TWS alert in the cockpit of the target.

[NoRailgunner 0]

I guess people moaning about KA50 AT+AA Vikhrs is only because they want to have another balanced shooter gameplay. They don't want little bit more realism or only if that fits into their fun mission concept. Maybe they are now a bit "lazy" to rework and update missions - its summer time

On the other hand proper working countermeasure system in default "vanilla" ArmA would've been great. But then you have again people complain about these things - its hard to try to suit everybodys expectations.

[whisper 0]

I guess people moaning about KA50 AT+AA Vikhrs is only because they want to have another balanced shooter gameplay. They don't want little bit more realism or only if that fits into their fun mission concept. Maybe they are now a bit "lazy" to rework and update missions - its summer time

On the other hand proper working countermeasure system in default "vanilla" ArmA would've been great. But then you have again people complain about these things - its hard to try to suit everybodys expectations.

Honestly, I could easily understand the moanings of the people I shot yesterday out of nowhere and with complete ease and impunity.

In fact, I played really bad cause pretty much all I'd have had to do was stay over friendly territory and I could have stopped most inbound without them seeing more than a red dot 2kms away.

I did attack too much into ennemy territory and was brought down by small calibers and 12.7 (perhaps a Stinger, once).

There's realism, and there's playability. With a less agile & precise Vikhr, and less easy targetting, I could have been downed by another chopper or I could have let slip some air insertion.

[walker 0]

Hi all

How to deal with whisper in his naughty KA50.

The general needs to send a covert stinger team in to his back yard. Say 12 soldiers broken in to teams of 4 armed with stingers in a human controlled squad.

This is what was learned in Chechnya and Afghanistan.

Shoot down enough of the KA50s and the other side is strategically bled to death economically speaking.

When they stop putting up KA50s it probably means they are out of cash. That is the time to send in a M1A1 spearhead or human wave attack.

A covert ops squad should always be looking to blow their aircraft factory.

Kind Regards walker

[LFO 0]

and you can also install william1's and franze's standalone flare addon. i played the quite interesting gunship 2000 campaign with 1.12b, ant there is one mission where you have to go head to head with 2 ka-50 in a ah-1. with the flares i was able to compete that mission.

Quote[/b] ]In practice, it's not as easy as ARMA makes it. The targeting system has to be slewed to the target (which doesn't just show up as a red block), and must then 'lock' the image of the target and be able to track it in order to make a successful shot. This is a lot more complicated than the 'press Tab' in ARMA, especially for a single pilot.

the same goes for hellfires and mavericks in the game also. but nobody complains that targetting with these missiles is to easy.

[MehMan 0]

Yes I do! I hate the tab fire system immensly and I love the mods that take that away. Like the NWD mod for tanks. Now we just need something for airplanes and helicopters.

[whisper 0]

the same goes for hellfires and mavericks in the game also. but nobody complains that targetting with these missiles is to easy.

Apache is a 2-seater, Ka-50 is a single seater.

The workload in the russian bird is really, really heavy for the pilot.

So heavy in fact, that Kamov has installed a huge bunch of auto-piloting functions to relieve the pilot of the piloting actions a bit and leave him time for his other tasks.

In the eye of the Cobra pilot, the targeting and firing (apart for firing rockets, which is mainly in his hands) is not his job, ie, is quite easy

to sum it up, issues :

- Too easy lock on system

- Combined with AA capabilities of Ka-50, it makes for an over-easy Ka-50 platform.

[Beagle 684]

The big Problem is the wrong choice of platforms. No one would have a probleme with the AA capability of the Ka50 (which was badly hampered by the fact that its cannon is fixed not pivoted like the real one) IF it's counterpart would be a AH-64 with AIM-92.

Next problem...missile dodging is currently impossible in ArmA AND ArmA missiles do not loose energy.

[hailstorm 4]

Missile dodging is currently HARD to do, but far from impossible in ArmA. depends on how the missile approaches it's target and in which relative direction the aircraft is flying. problem is, you don't know when or how many missiles are flying at you at any given time.

[lugiahua 26]

I agree that KA-50 should have AA ability, but it is too powerful in game.

You can even shot down a Super Hornet around 400knots

(although I did this with 10 missiles)

and it is really unfair in mutiplayer, I think...

[mr.g-c 6]

But doesn't this in real-life mean that the KA50 Pilot needs to point his flight direction towards the to engaging enemy?

The laser beam-riding pointing device (even if its automatically) isn't on a 360° rotating turret as far as i know.

But in Arma its "Fire and Forget". You can Lock-on air target with it, fire, turn 180°, lock on the next and fire again, and so on....

This i what annoyes me at most.

Regards, Christian

[walker 0]

Hi all

Just did some testing in SP

Two wings of AV8B (sidewinder armed ones) both set to guard waypoint then a guarded by west trigger over Corazol.

The AI are holding their own.

Next test

Two wings of AV8B (sidewinder armed ones) both set to guard waypoint then a guarded by west trigger over Corazol.

Against

Two wings of KA50 both set to guard waypoint then a guarded by East trigger over Corazol

Me in RACS AH6 set to friendly to both to observe with an MH6 in my squad so I can get commander view.

If others can run a similar mission in the editor we can assess the effectiveness with some degree of scientific objectivity.

After this I guess the next test is to have a few human duels between an AV8B and KA50s.

Try it on a Dedicated server with both players similar ping.

Also client hosted from first one client then the other both pilots do four duals playing on each aircraft.

If enough of us do this we can get some real statistics instead of just peoples inestimable opinions

Kind regards walker

[LFO 0]

Quote[/b] ]Apache is a 2-seater, Ka-50 is a single seater.

The workload in the russian bird is really, really heavy for the pilot.

So heavy in fact, that Kamov has installed a huge bunch of auto-piloting functions to relieve the pilot of the piloting actions a bit and leave him time for his other tasks.

i'm aware of this fact, though i have to admit more through watching the producers notes of DCS' blackshark than through real research. if the ArmA ka-50 had all this automatic stuff like turning the helicopter automatically to point the cannon at the selected target or helmet mounted visual targeting even more people would complain. btw the a-10 is also a single seat aircraft.

with sophisticated avionics- and countermeasures-modeling completely lacking in ArmA it seems that irl quite capable equipment has to either be toned down ingame or come across as "cheap".

Quote[/b] ]Missile dodging is currently HARD to do, but far from impossible in ArmA. depends on how the missile approaches it's target and in which relative direction the aircraft is flying. problem is, you don't know when or how many missiles are flying at you at any given time.

i agree, and with the aforementioned flare addon you also get a missile-warning with the direction the missile is coming from.

Quote[/b] ]

(which was badly hampered by the fact that its cannon is fixed not pivoted like the real one)

yeah, it's quite impractical that you cannot attack targets while hovering with the ka-50 ingame (unless like flying 2 feet above the ground). i hope this will be fixed in ArmA 2.

[mattxr 9]

I agree that KA-50 should have AA ability, but it is too powerful in game.

You can even shot down a Super Hornet around 400knots

(although I did this with 10 missiles)

and it is really unfair in mutiplayer, I think...

Then my friend what is needed is ... ... Mando Misslies Flare/Chaff Scripts added into the mission  

Plus the KA-50 missiles arnt as powerfull as a Ah1z's...

[walker 0]

Hi all

Ok So far the AV8Bs are wining 4 to 1 in most tests.

So as far as AI goes it seems to be the correct balance but human duels are still needed to assess the human pilot balance

That said we want tab locking only available to pilot IDed threats and a Enemy Lockon indicator and counter measures. I seem to remember these mods already exist.

A few mission improvements should solve any Warfare balance question.

Kind Regards walker

[USSRsniper 0]

Never had problem with that, why balance, balancing all weapons removes the fun. if you are going to simulate modern warfare, tere is no room for balance.... Here si video by the way, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z03y04imhQg where plane is shot down.

Ka-50 is too powerfull in arma? Give me a break, in ArmA ka-50 is not even close to what real KA-50 ahs to offer. What i'm saying Ka-50 is not good enough in ArmA, but people want balance, you can't balance AH-1 to KA-50, because AH-1 is crap compared to KA-50. AH-64 is needed instead

[Beagle 684]

Never had problem with that, why balance, balancing all weapons removes the fun. if you are going to simulate modern warfare, tere is no room for balance.... Here si video by the way, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z03y04imhQg where plane is shot down.

Ka-50 is too powerfull in arma? Give me a break, in ArmA ka-50 is not even close to what real KA-50 ahs to offer. What i'm saying Ka-50 is not good enough in ArmA, but people want balance, you can't balance AH-1 to KA-50, because AH-1 is crap compared to KA-50. AH-64 is needed instead  

Thats the kind of balance we want...like 1.75 T-72 equal one M1A1...but....even 10 Ah-1 have no chance against the Hokum...because as now...the Hokum is the one and only Helicopter with AA capable-Missiles in stock ArmA Game.

This has introduced another big missbalance into the game concept. (like the presence of BMP-2 without any M2A2)

[LFO 0]

Quote[/b] ]That said we want tab locking only available to pilot IDed threats and a Enemy Lockon indicator and counter measures. I seem to remember these mods already exist.

word! being able to lock targets bvr (beyond visual range) with the current "ArmA super radar/IR" is really annoying.