Fix ArmA choppers now!

[Raz0rx 0]

The ArmA flight model was awesome before 1.02, when it was apparently "fixed" or made "better".

At least back then you could turn at high speeds, but from 1.02 onwards chopper flying feels so wooden.

But i guess most people here wouldn't have gotten to play the early Czech versions...

[-ZG-BUZZARD 0]

Monty, the reason why it's hard-coded into the game is probably the only reason why it has to be BIS that has to change the game through a patch so as to give us the choice - it's not something a mod could do. If anybody is able to change the FM it's BIS, and I don't think that they'd consider such a task "impossible" - it would be hard work but not "impossible". But, since so many of us would appreciate it that much, I think BIS should try to give us that choice between an OFP-like FM and an ArmA-like FM.  

[The-Architect 0]

I was playing Evo last night and the pilots ferrying us to and fro were outstanding. They seemed pretty competant even if my flying is still amateur.

It's fine.

[sanctuary 19]

BUZZARD @ April 28 2008,15:23)]Monty, the reason why it's hard-coded into the game is probably the only reason why it has to be BIS that has to change the game through a patch so as to give us the choice - it's not something a mod could do. If anybody is able to change the FM it's BIS, and I don't think that they'd consider such a task "impossible" - it would be hard work but not "impossible". But, since so many of us would appreciate it that much, I think BIS should try to give us that choice between an OFP-like FM and an ArmA-like FM.

Reading one of the vbs2 patch changelog here

Quote[/b] ]

[...]

* ADDED: Simple helicopter flight model (activate through difficulties)

[...]

If BIS/BIA can do that on their vbs2, i highly doubt BIS can't do it on ArmA too.

hopefully if it does not make it in ArmA for unknown reason, at least BIS should really implement such options in their future game, more options = good , less options = bad.

[charliereddog 9]

I fly with Keyboard and Mouse too although I wouldn't mind a joystick. The rudder you just have to get used to. I would be all in favour of a harder landing being less damaging.

I find it quite funny that people trot out all this "infantry simulator" stuff. Taking Evo as an example (not ideal I know but it's a good one for this because of the availability of aircraft), the number of people wanting to go in as infantry, and the number who want to fly is usually about even. I've frequently seen 5 helos in the air, plus a harrier or two, and maybe only 10 ground pounders.

[Buzz 0]

Is it me or if my chopper takes 50-75% damage it's unflyable.

It should still be able to work to some extent; shouldn't it?

When you come in to an LZ and you hit auto hover you shoot up about 100 feet into the air, and you cannot come down fast enough how about toning that down a bit, .

Pulling out of a nose dive is extremely hard.

Now I'm not a helo pilot in any way shape or form, but these are the things I find annoying,

[Daniel 0]

The rotor machinery in ArmA is very fragile, so any hard bumps are prone to knock your engine out. You should be able to land most of the time softly enough, but as some have said, choppers like the Blackhawk are designed to take hard landings...

Also if you practice enough, you shouldn't need or want to use auto hover.

Just my opinion though.

Also yeah, some choppers like the Cobra seem to have a lot of speed but a lot of momentum too, so you have to plan your moves ahead. It's pretty easy to get over confident with the Cobra and plough it into a hill. The Littlebird doesn't have this problem though, I can rag it round the cities like a sports car.    Does the Cobra having less rotors have anything to do with this?

[-ZG-BUZZARD 0]

Daniel @ April 28 2008,16:54)]Does the Cobra having less rotors have anything to do with this?

Actually, the Littlebird could do with only one rotor, instead of the Cobra's two... (there have been tested versions of the Littlebird without the tail rotor)...  

If you're talking about rotor blades though, it's a different matter... Could be that it's very well the case though I'm no expert on the matter, but the fact that after the first generations of helicopters almost all subsequent helos are having more than 2 blades per main rotor could be evidence of it...

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

I don’t know why people just don’t practice more.  The ArmA flight model, while flawed compared to FS etc, is far more realistic than most FPS games. What is the point of taking a huge backward leap to the OFP flight model.  I prefer to see it brought up to a flight sim standard as much to improve the "simulation" aspect of the game as to drive out the BF2/selfish types that want a helicopter to "pwn pplz".

I've been experimenting with the flight model for over a year now. While I can’t change everything I have been able to make helicopters and planes fly more 'realistically'.  I've been able to improve handling in most regimes.  Even been able to change the rate of climb and affect pitch, roll and yaw rates in custom models quite easily.  

- Damage resistance is easy to change.   It’s all a function of the config.

- Climb/collective rate is a config issue and easily adapted.

- Handling issues in the cobra etc are all easily over come using a small config change and a bit of practice.

- yaw rate =  is model based (different to rudder authority)

- roll rate = as above

- pitch rate = as above

[Maddmatt 1]

I don’t know why people just don’t practice more. The ArmA flight model, while flawed compared to FS etc, is far more realistic than most FPS games. What is the point of taking a huge backward leap to the OFP flight model. I prefer to see it brought up to a flight sim standard as much to improve the "simulation" aspect of the game as to drive out the BF2/selfish types that want a helicopter to "pwn pplz".

Agreed. Having the devs dumb down the flight model (even if it's an option) to OFP standards is a waste of their time.

It's not a simple case of 'copying the OFP flight model' into ArmA.

The only real differences are the fact that the OFP model limited roll and pitch and followed the terrain a bit. More realistic? Hell no!

The autocentering may bother those using a mouse to steer, but that's nothing do do with the flight model - it's the way the game handles mouse input for vehicles. Maybe that's the real problem when some people ask for the old flight model back, they just want the mouse input to be handled in the same way. Am I right here?

I do think that rudder control should be improved (stronger at higher speeds) and choppers should be able to handle harder landings so as not to take damage from landing with autorotation. Maybe collective should be more reactive too. The flight model should be made more realistic - these changes would actually make choppers easier to use.

But bringing back a flight model from 2001 just because you lack the skill to handle one that doesn't restrict your movements? No thanks

Come on, it's not that hard

[Bad Pilot 0]

I was reading above about autocentering and thinking "what autocentering?" but I see how that would happen with a mouse. Surely if you're going to play at pilots, the first thing you do is buy a joystick? Or is complaining more appropriate?

There's no point having two settings for old and new flight models cos you can't have some helos zooming around like UFOs whilst others obey laws of physics. The laws of physics are a lot of fun with the right tools for the job

[wamingo 1]

I was reading above about autocentering and thinking "what autocentering?" but I see how that would happen with a mouse.  Surely if you're going to play at pilots, the first thing you do is buy a joystick?  Or is complaining more appropriate?

Yes, complaining is more appropriate.

Actually the answer is... Why have autocentering? I understand the cause, but insufficient programming is not reason to keep it around.

A joystick is inconvenient in any regular computer setup. Having to switch inputs around to go flying/infantry/driving is just not convenient. The fact is the game should be playable with mouse and keyboard, why shouldn't it? Forcing a joystick down people's throats is silly.

So, remove autocentering, it results in nothing but annoyance.

[BraTTy 0]

I followed the whole topic and to give some input I can say....

We can't expect uber realistic chopper flight dynamics , as the many many driving sims out can't even match a cars physics as of yet. Many dedicated driving sims.

How do the real pilots rate MS Flightsims flying model? Must be far from perfect.

I fly with key/mouse but do have a joystick and it is annoying switching when you hop in a flying craft but If I flew more it wouldn't be a problem.

I was a plane ace in BF42 and the majority of aces used joystick maybe around 10% used key/mouse mainly at a disadvantage of switching views quickly using hat control.

I do agree with fixing the landing damage in Arma , its too unforgiving

And it seems like one bullet hit and you only have less than a minute its flyable, loses fuel and engine stops.

[shinRaiden 0]

BUZZARD @ April 28 2008,15:23)]Monty, the reason why it's hard-coded into the game is probably the only reason why it has to be BIS that has to change the game through a patch so as to give us the choice - it's not something a mod could do. If anybody is able to change the FM it's BIS, and I don't think that they'd consider such a task "impossible" - it would be hard work but not "impossible". But, since so many of us would appreciate it that much, I think BIS should try to give us that choice between an OFP-like FM and an ArmA-like FM.

Reading one of the vbs2 patch changelog here

Quote[/b] ]

[...]

* ADDED: Simple helicopter flight model (activate through difficulties)

[...]

If BIS/BIA can do that on their vbs2, i highly doubt BIS can't do it on ArmA too.

hopefully if it does not make it in ArmA for unknown reason, at least BIS should really implement such options in their future game, more options = good , less options = bad.

You think there's riots now, you really don't want 'simple' flight model. It's basically automated auto-hover, you set a notch for altitude and airspeed, and step away from the computer. There is a legitimate training purpose to this, but in practice trying combat maneuvers is impossible because that's not what it's intended to do. The purpose is for non-flight crews to do an otherwise unassisted transport, or for crew chiefs to practice their ops. That and plus or minus 5 off of 0 automatically auto-hovers you, so precision maneuvering is also disabled.

@RockOfSL :

You lie, all that's impossible, simply for the fact that as it's not in the BIS content it is thus clearly impossible, for the sole fact of BIS holding out to extort the community because we all know they're evil. How dare you present evidence contrary to what we wish to believe in our own petty little opinions...

[subs17 9]

I followed the whole topic and to give some input I can say....

We can't expect uber realistic chopper flight dynamics , as the many many driving sims out can't even match a cars physics as of yet. Many dedicated driving sims.

How do the real pilots rate MS Flightsims flying model? Must be far from perfect.

I fly with key/mouse but do have a joystick and it is annoying switching when you hop in a flying craft but If I flew more it wouldn't be a problem.

I was a plane ace in BF42 and the majority of aces used joystick maybe around 10% used key/mouse mainly at a disadvantage of switching views quickly using hat control.

I do agree with fixing the landing damage in Arma , its too unforgiving

And it seems like one bullet hit and you only have less than a minute its flyable, loses fuel and engine stops.

Well to honest it ain't that big a deal anyway switching from keyboard/mouse to HOTAS or joystick. Its good being able to use both in game as the need arises. The better approach is to have auto-centering on or off switch that way everyone can use the one they prefer although to the keyboard/mouse approach in most sims is quite impractical. You can get away with it in Arma since alot of the FM is toned down enough to let you get away with it.(keyboard mouse approach won't work with FSX accelerations EH101 missions you would have a very frustrating time trying to use the hoist or slingload) Regarding FS well you can't carry other people online and you most certainly can't shoot anything so it can't really be compared to Arma unless you're looking at avionics or flight characteristics. As far as MS flight model for the R22 its quite close(from a friend of mine whos an R22 pilot) but the EH101 lacks FBW modelling for the FCS and also lacks auto-hover and auto-pilot which IRL makes alot of the flying much easier. Some things that are interesting though are the ground effect on slopes/buildings and also the effect of crosswinds whilst trying to hover. I think it would be quite cool to be able to see a future version of Arma with helicopters on the same level as the ones in FSX or better. Theres alot of features that would add more to the online experience that are probably just out of reach with Armas setup.

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

@RockOfSL :

You lie, all that's impossible, simply for the fact that as it's not in the BIS content it is thus clearly impossible, for the sole fact of BIS holding out to extort the community because we all know they're evil. How dare you present evidence contrary to what we wish to believe in our own petty little opinions...

Is that sarcasm or are you smoking something again? The reason I ask is that it is often difficult to see if you are trying to be genuine or trying too hard to be a smart arse.

[CameronMcDonald 146]

Hot tip: he's on your side this time round.

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

Hot tip: he's on your side this time round.

I know. I was being sarcastic and a little caustic.

[monty67t 0]

I hope he's just being sarcastic. Maybe he doesn't exactly know who you are Rock. If anyone has been in the community for any amount of time they would know that you of all people certainly know what you're talking about. You know how some of these people can be Rock, don't let them get to you. Most people in the community know exactly how much you have contributed and how smart you are when it comes to addons.

[CameronMcDonald 146]

This is getting better and better.

[sanctuary 19]

BUZZARD @ April 28 2008,15:23)]Monty, the reason why it's hard-coded into the game is probably the only reason why it has to be BIS that has to change the game through a patch so as to give us the choice - it's not something a mod could do. If anybody is able to change the FM it's BIS, and I don't think that they'd consider such a task "impossible" - it would be hard work but not "impossible". But, since so many of us would appreciate it that much, I think BIS should try to give us that choice between an OFP-like FM and an ArmA-like FM.

Reading one of the vbs2 patch changelog here

Quote[/b] ]

[...]

* ADDED: Simple helicopter flight model (activate through difficulties)

[...]

If BIS/BIA can do that on their vbs2, i highly doubt BIS can't do it on ArmA too.

hopefully if it does not make it in ArmA for unknown reason, at least BIS should really implement such options in their future game, more options = good , less options = bad.

You think there's riots now, you really don't want 'simple' flight model. It's basically automated auto-hover, you set a notch for altitude and airspeed, and step away from the computer. There is a legitimate training purpose to this, but in practice trying combat maneuvers is impossible because that's not what it's intended to do. The purpose is for non-flight crews to do an otherwise unassisted transport, or for crew chiefs to practice their ops. That and plus or minus 5 off of 0 automatically auto-hovers you, so precision maneuvering is also disabled.

You misunderstood my post, the intent of it is not to say "bring the simplified flight model from vbs2 to Arma1/arma2 , that kind of flying model i don't care at all, i prefer to use the ones from the various flying simulations i like to toy around with.

The purpose of this was to point out that it is possible for the developers to implement 2 different flying models, selectable by option menu in their game engine.

After that, it is not a technical problem, they already proved they are seasonned coders with their ofp/arma/vbs products, it is just a matter of do the developers want to, or do they not want to.

[Daniel 0]

ok, couldn't read the WHOLE thread, but the chopper flight model's not that bad.  Survivability on the blackhawk would be nice.

This thread doesn't address the REAL issue of the S**t-awful throttle on planes.

+7million.

Was just thinking that.

[W0lle 1044]

After that, it is not a technical problem, they already proved they are seasonned coders with their ofp/arma/vbs products, it is just a matter of do the developers want to, or do they not want to.

Wrong, it's not a question if the devs want or not want to add this option. It's a question of time, such an option and two different flight models is not implemented by pressing some keys. It takes time to implement it, beta test everything and fix the bugs.

Time the development team can spend on ArmA2.

Besides that, the flight model has been changed in the past because the community asked for it. Now the changed flightmodel should be changed again... and even if it would be changed I guarantee you that some other real chopper pilot comes up and claims that it's not like the real thing and starts another thread demanding a change.

Get used to the current one, it might not be perfect but you can learn to use it. I did and so can anyone else.

And drop that constant ArmA vs. VBS2 comparison. Two different worlds, two different products with totally different customers.

[LFO 0]

it has been mentioned countless times: if you think a joystick is too cumbersome, impractical or whatever, you can always get yourself a decent pad (the poor mans HOTAS ). for me, the xbox360 controller works flawlessly.

i also needed time to get used to the helicopter fm, but since 1.05 (or was it 1.08?) it got really flyable and is imo great fun now. still not perfect, but fun. as mentioned before i also think the major gripe is tail-rotor authority, but if you learn to fly helicopters in arma you can do with the current values. sometimes i wish the choppers would feel a little *heavier* though.

i'm really looking forward to the hind by ericM and RockofSL, because i'm curious how the mi-24 will behave with the right values tweaked!

[boomboomer 0]

Get used to the current one, it might not be perfect but you can learn to use it. I did and so can anyone else.  

I have got used to the flight model, it's not that bad after all and more realistic than OFP, IMHO.

It's only the lack of ground effect that keeps catching me out - swooping down on a target with FFAR then realising you're not going to pull out, bang, six feet under - as helo's fly at 30m and 300m in exactly the same way.