Schmalfelden, Germany Map

[Sudden Death 0]

@N.Bell

let me say it with some short words: Thanks for your work. Keep up you´re on the right way. That is, what I wish how ArmA should be (the map not the FPS) ;-)

S.D.

[Nicholas Bell 0]

Quote[/b] ]To get better FPS while in the forests, you could use some tree models from OFP. They have less detail and no shaders so they have a much smaller FPS impact when up close.

Well, unless I can download them and drop them into Visitor it's a great idea with no way for me to impliment. I have no knowledge of modeling.

Quote[/b] ]How about using the old OFP forest clutters like Sgt.Ace did with his Everon island fpr ArmA?

Yes, they have great frame rates but don't really look too much like real forests, IMO. This is a last resort, but if there's no other way...

Quote[/b] ]Also, instead of using the dark green North Sahrani grass from 1.08, use the new grass that was added since the 1.09 patch to help FPS in some places.

I'm a little confused. The patch is supposed to fix/replace the existing grass P3D. My map rvmats refer to existing grass P3D so in theory the grass in this map should be "patched" when using 1.09 - no? I located the "fixes" in the hotfix pbo, but the rvmats are binarized so I can't see what is going on. Any ideas?

Quote[/b] ]They were from Burns AEC Island pack for OFP, as far as i'm aware of... Shaderless and with still cool optics i think.

Yes they do look good, but as I noted above I have no idea how import OFP models.

Quote[/b] ]is it planned for some other version to implement typical german reflector posts and some guardrails at the roads?

Yes, that is on the "to do" list. Unfortunately another hit on the FPS though...

[kuIoodporny 45]

I'd like to play some kind of CTI / Berzerk there neeeeed moooore poooower!

[franze 196]

This runs fair on my system @ 2000m view distance, although like others I do notice a slowdown when looking at the forest areas. I believe it'd be possible to create dense forestry objects, but to make it playable they'd need to be relatively low detail compared to standard ArmA trees. I'd even be willing to do them for you.

My suggestion at this time would be to keep the version you have, but make a second parallel version with a massive tree reduction.

Also, is the map intended to be in winter or summer? I'm a little bit confused as it looks summer but some areas look like winter.

Beyond that, this is a excellent and well-done map. The size isn't much good for anything outside of tactical level scenarios, but I gather that was the intent. The edges of the map do lend themselves for off-map support units however, so it could be plenty possible to simulate a large-scale battle using this extra space. The feeling of the map definitely matches the cold war era.

Well done!

[Serclaes 0]

Also, is the map intended to be in winter or summer? I'm a little bit confused as it looks summer but some areas look like winter.

this is also something that makes me wonder.

These autumn trees could add another dimension of reality feeling to the island

err forgot the link: http://www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin....=autumn

[mrcash2009 0]

I hope Nicholas gets a bucket load (sort of) of PM's from modders to help with this area I really do (hint hint )

Quote[/b] ]These autumn trees could add another dimension of reality feeling to the island

Now THATS a good heads up

[the.d 0]

Ok, I just had a quick test run and ... wow!

You can really feel that "Baden-Württemberg"-type of landscape. The wide open fields, small agricultural towns, the woods - that's southern Germany alright. Impressive!

Anyone up to the task to re-create the Black Forest ingame? That might be something for ArmA3 I guess :-D

But seriously, thanks for sharing this with us, Nicholas!

[fasad 1]

Congratulations, this is a very nice map! I've always loved rolling terrain!

Observations :

- Some more fences in the towns would be good.

- Quarry satmask texture looks like snow. I'd make it a little greyer, less blue and give it a stronger MCO to suit the detail texture.

- There are a couple of fields that also look like snow.

- Areas of small pine trees in forests are completely impassable to AI.

- Some parts of the forests and towns give the AI path finding a hard time.

- Low performance in dense forests really outweighs the benefits IMO. Custom low-detail forest trees may be the only way to achieve usable dense forests in ArmA.

- High contrast between various field types on the satmask looks strange while the 4 terrain type limitation makes all fields look the same up close. This is hard to overcome with a map based on a real place since you can't "optimize" the location of various areas to suit the limitation. Have you experimented with a using smaller satmask segment size? I'd personally reduce contrast between field types on the satmask either way.

- I have to agree that some parts of the satmask (the patches of light green grass) are over-saturated.

[Nicholas Bell 0]

Fasad,

Thanks for reporting these problems. I will adjust the quarry - others have mentioned that. Where is the other "snow" area - can you give me a direction from a town? There are some very light grain fields which I have not touched.

The areas you say are impassible to AI - the areas with the small pines only - or the areas which have been logged (cut trees and stumps)?

I am continuing to eliminate trees to the point where I am not particularly happy with how they look - that is they look like the open forests on the BIS island. I eliminated another 10,000 trees and gained 1 FPS in my distant test. In the "forest" where I have been thinning trees the frame rate doubles or triples, but it doesn't look like a forest anymore. If I could add some bushes I would be happier but that would defeat the point of eliminating the trees.

(note to self: next island project to semi-arid treeless, uninhabited wasteland)

There are 2 types of field terrain masks, one representing the green fields and one the tan wheat fields.

Attempting to reproduce:

[Nicholas Bell 0]

Examples of how dense real German forests are:

Note the different heights of growth, and the dense plantings - these trees are really crops:

[Nicholas Bell 0]

Remember to use the fog setting in your scenarios to help the frame rate.

(note the paved farm field trail and also the gravel cross track)

[fasad 1]

Fasad,

Thanks for reporting these problems. I will adjust the quarry - others have mentioned that. Where is the other "snow" area - can you give me a direction from a town? There are some very light grain fields which I have not touched.

There is a small patch in B3, E of Schmalfelden, S of a 484m highpoint. A larger field is at E2, ESE of Wolfskreut. There are other fields I feel look too white, but these two are the worst. I think making them a little darker and more brown would look more natural. Satellite photos don't always provide true to life colours (although I can't claim to have ever seen crops in Europe).

Quote[/b] ]The areas you say are impassible to AI - the areas with the small pines only - or the areas which have been logged (cut trees and stumps)?

Just the small pine trees (for example the sides of the main road running through the forest ENE from Kleinbaerenweiler). The AI also have trouble with the cleared/logged areas, but can generally get through.

Quote[/b] ]I am continuing to eliminate trees to the point where I am not particularly happy with how they look - that is they look like the open forests on the BIS island. I eliminated another 10,000 trees and gained 1 FPS in my distant test. In the "forest" where I have been thinning trees the frame rate doubles or triples, but it doesn't look like a forest anymore. If I could add some bushes I would be happier but that would defeat the point of eliminating the trees.

(note to self: next island project to semi-arid treeless, uninhabited wasteland)

Good performance in a realistically dense forest is not going to be easy to achieve. It's a limitation of ArmA (and every other game). Finding the balance between low performance and making a dull and sparse forest is going to be a very tough balancing act.

edit (new feedback) :

- I notice the terrain surface definitions are very smooth, making the entire map almost as fast to drive on as the road.

- The small map grid squares should ideally appear at a lower map zoom level

[dr_eyeball 16]

Very well structured and complex road system, varied surfaces and not just staight roads.

Some feedback (most has already been said):

- It would be nice to see some fences surrounding some of the various fields. One of your tank photos shows it has fences.

- Some areas in the centre are totally baren of trees along roads, even single ones every so often would be nice, regardless of real life.

- My stats on the forests: It can bring the FPS from 40 down to about 7. Much larger Sahrani forests usually bring it down to about 25.

If the cause is purely due to density, then just reduce it and add undergrowth. It may be a realistic density but unnecessary.

But somehow, the cause seems to be related to more than just density since the forests are fairly small. Consider that the trees are intersecting too.

Good work.

[gsleighter 0]

I'd love to see the berghoff vegetation packs implemented, they were very realistic, and if the VTE mod is an indicator, massive amounts of trees with no shaders are very FPS friendly. Or, make it dependent on the ACE islands and use the OFP Res trees?

Another bug with the dense forests, since you can't see the sky much of the time, it overwhelms the HDR engine, and everything on screen becomes washed out and white.

Of course, I don't know how hard it would be to import those models into the game, I'm not a modder. Just know that I've served in the Army over there, and I'd love it if the map was playable, just can't use anything but the open areas, even with fog, and that's with a dual core with an 8800GTX and 2 gigs of RAM.

[.kju 3239]

Did you guys tree Lowplants with it?

OFP single trees should have better performance.

Yet OFP woods should NOT. Haven't see this woods ingame yet though.

[mrcash2009 0]

I had a very good go on this map last night, using a small fireteam to take out a patrol in one small town area, great tactical enjoyment and concealment with road bushes was a joy. Very addictive map to be used for that kind of thing for sure it "felt" right.

I did walk through a road that passed direct through the end of one of the forests to reach the town. I stopped my men and wandered in, my conclusions:

1. FPS inside the forest is beyond playable (I know thats obvious)

2. I noticed that you cannot really "use" the forest for much as the tree models used are the very stocky wide leaf versions which have leaves and branches very low to the trunk, this means that unless you crouch the entire time you cannot really use them to fight in nor navigate too well (and especially drag team AI into to expect them to pathfind LOL).

So ... this map has FPS issues with forests becuase they are too dense and as a result not worth venturing into ... which begs the question, why have FPS hits on a map with an unusable Forrests which in theory just makes it eye candy? Im talking in terms of ignoring the realism a bit and looking at the facts of gameplay.

So, to make the forests less dense (try some groupings of shrubs and a sprinkle of the trees you have on edges), and in my mind use different tree models than the current ones, for example the taller pines with longer bear trunks so you can stand and view further, this would also in turn let in more light and sort the HDR thing out too. I know I repeat but please check out Gardinasis Island forest as its the best example of having the forrests "look" like yours from a far, plus playable as hell (check out the dips and bumps in terrain for concealment too), and fps friendly.

I would also agree that more shrubs and a tree or so grouped down roads and paths a bit more would be perfect, I automatically used this kind of thing when playing last night. I dont know if you ever played Ghost Recons "The Farm" map but drainage trenches down side of crop fields and a few more dips/sunken soil in large open crop areas would be a neat thing to use for concealment when on foot and going prone too. I know the terrain isnt "flat" but im referring to obvious dips to specifically lay in and crawl through.

This map wouldn't suffer for it only benefit hugely, it would make it so much more, more scope to fight in forests and use them for concealment more, more hinding ad concealment in open areas when you need to go prone from patrols, all that rather than spend time staying away from forrests and having FPS issues just for unusable eye candy.

Although, if you simply wanted to it to match the map in real life exactly, and didn't want people to use forests and only really want it for sniping tank battles and fps dodging, then I take it all back (joke)

PS - I just want to throw this input in as this map is perfect in what I like in maps, and these things are the triad off from realism to playability ... I hope you give it a go

[Stewy 1]

Finally got to have a blast on this map - it's GREAT! I love it so much!

The forests aren't too bad on my rig, but agree with the rest, it's perhaps a little 'too' dense for ArmA purposes .

But a killer map nontheless - thanks for ALL of your hard work!

[icebreakr 3100]

All maps should have a line of bushes infront of forests to make them more realistic, not to mention great for ambush. You know what I mean if you drive from Bagango to a farm uphill in direction West.

[Cibit 0]

Hi Nick,

nice map. I have just transfered one of my Company sized missions onto your island with playable results.

414 units with FPS of between 14-35 on a 6600, 2Gb RAM and a 8800GTX.

SetTerraingrid 50; // reduces grass to allow for an increase in FPS and better visibility for firefights

Obviously you have to live without grass and loose some units but a compromise nontheless

Keep up the good work mate

[Nicholas Bell 0]

Quote[/b] ]Also, is the map intended to be in winter or summer? I'm a little bit confused as it looks summer but some areas look like winter.

Franze - That is probably the quarry.

Quote[/b] ]There is a small patch in B3, E of Schmalfelden....

Fasad - thank you for the specifics.

Quote[/b] ]So, to make the forests less dense (try some groupings of shrubs and a sprinkle of the trees you have on edges), and in my mind use different tree models than the current ones, for example the taller pines with longer bear trunks so you can stand and view further, this would also in turn let in more light and sort the HDR thing out too. I know I repeat but please check out Gardinasis Island forest as its the best example of having the forrests "look" like yours from a far, plus playable as hell (check out the dips and bumps in terrain for concealment too), and fps friendly.

MrCash2009 - Good point about the tree types. I did a quick FPS test here at, *cough* work, on a trail with deciduous trees on one side and tall pines on the other and the frame rate more than doubled when looking at the pines. I also did look at Gardinasis - those woods are similar in density to those on the ACE Everon island. If my current tree thinning doesn't work that is the solution of last resort. I agree that if it isn't playable there's not much point in the map.

Thanks for all the comments. Even if I don't respond directly I am reading all and taking notes.

[W0lle 1042]

Cibit

4 of 5 pictures in your post was over 100kb. You're a member since 2004 so by now you should know the rules.

I think +1 WL is fair enough.

[Nicholas Bell 0]

Quote[/b] ]nice map. I have just transfered one of my Company sized missions onto your island with playable results.

414 units with FPS of between 14-35 on a 6600, 2Gb RAM and a 8800GTX. SetTerraingrid 50; // reduces grass to allow for an increase in FPS and better visibility for firefights

Cibit - Good workaround. Pretty massive engagement!

[Cibit 0]

Cibit

4 of 5 pictures in your post was over 100kb. You're a member since 2004 so by now you should know the rules.

I think +1 WL is fair enough.

Please accept my apologies then delete this post

[gunnyhighway 0]

Great Work Bell!....Thank you W0lle for spreading it to VBS2.

Sincerely,

GHWY

[dob 0]

Very nice island! Merci!