Weapon handling, whats need to be next gen?

[twisted 127]

In another thread there were some good ideas about how the weapons system in Arma2 should be evolved.

it makes sense, especially with new games like COD4 that make the weapons feel more 'immersive'.

so to keep up with the Joneses (as well as compete with the upcoming OFP2 - I've just read the preview and OFP2 actually looks pretty damn impressive), Arma2 should have some real improvements and enhancements to how weapons are handled and simulated.

things that could be improved are:

* more weapon operating animations (like reloading by actually putting a a magazine in and then pulling the bolt back for example, or deploying a bipod, or the actual manual bolt action on certain rifles, etc)

* a new recoil system - one that better reproduces the experience of shooting and takes weapon weight, bullet calibre, internal firing system, rof, weapon support (bipod, foregrip, wall and this should be switched on at right time by engine), way the weapon is held (from the hip or with a carry belt or sighted or using support), length of burst (when shooting you tend to lean in to counter recoil a bit with most assault rifles), recoil direction (some assault rifles tend to pull more to the side than up), etc into consideration. All to make it 'the experience' of firing a weapon more tactile.

* More customisable 'touchpoints' so the hands don't hold the assault rifles wrong.

* Fewer concessions like the reloadable LAW.

... in armas case, weapons are just Single shaped lifeless objects without proper weaon animations.

For example when reloading, seeing the player interact with the weapon will increase the feeling of actually interacting with the 3D environment.

seeing the magazing physically taken from the weapon, switched and put back in (and together with the appropriate steps to feed a round into the chamber) would increase immersion tenfold. Other animations can be used to create other realistic features of a battlefield such as Stopages, different ways of holding a weapon, using forgrips etc.

The magical wizardry of ARMA and OFP should stop with ARMA2, in a sense that we should not be subject to waving ones hands over the weapon to perform all weapon functions.

But of course this is the tip of the iceberg, AI, physics, Sounds can all be improved, but what i have mentioned above is what has bothered me since day one.

-Shwiing

and

... add the following to it.

Partial reloads and the extra round in the chamber.

Diferent reload times depending on the weapon.

Bolt action rifles using single rounds instead of magazines.

Being able to control grenade throwing.

These are not the most important features... but i think they can be found in pretty much any shooter, dont think the ultimate combat simulation should be missing on the basics.

[Heatseeker 0]

First person weapon animations are far from anything "next gen", they are present in plenty of ancient games, reloading, ataching bayonets, switching firemodes, etc.

It would be nice, no doubt about it but many weapons are diferent so they would have to make many diferent anims.

It would also make it harder for addon makers to include new weaponry in the game (big drawback).

There are so many areas worth improving upon that i wouldnt prioritise a visual feature with little to none gameplay impact.

I wouldnt say no but it wont kill me .

[jmcorp 0]

First person weapon animations are far from anything "next gen", they are present in plenty of ancient games, reloading, ataching bayonets, switching firemodes, etc.

It would be nice, no doubt about it but many weapons are diferent so they would have to make many diferent anims.

It would also make it harder for addon makers to include new weaponry in the game (big drawback).

There are so many areas worth improving upon that i wouldnt prioritise a visual feature with little to none gameplay impact.

I wouldnt say no but it wont kill me .

thats not the point, the point is ARMA is lacking horrifically behind in regards to technology, the weapons barely animate when fired, as you said, some 'ancient' games have had these features, and yet doesn't it bother you that ARMA doesnt?

IMO they need a much bigger workforce, 30 or so people is not enough to make such a higly demanding game, OFP2 on the other hand have 70 or so staff just working on weapons models and animations, you can expect all the OP posted to be in that game...

[Inkompetent 0]

First person weapon animations are far from anything "next gen", they are present in plenty of ancient games, reloading, ataching bayonets, switching firemodes, etc.

It would be nice, no doubt about it but many weapons are diferent so they would have to make many diferent anims.

It would also make it harder for addon makers to include new weaponry in the game (big drawback).

There are so many areas worth improving upon that i wouldnt prioritise a visual feature with little to none gameplay impact.

I wouldnt say no but it wont kill me .

thats not the point, the point is ARMA is lacking horrifically behind in regards to technology, the weapons barely animate when fired, as you said, some 'ancient' games have had these features, and yet doesn't it bother you that ARMA doesnt?

IMO they need a much bigger workforce, 30 or so people is not enough to make such a higly demanding game, OFP2 on the other hand have 70 or so staff just working on weapons models and animations, you can expect all the OP posted to be in that game...

But if BIS used that many employees ArmA 2 would have to become a "13 in a dozen" mainstream, soulless game everyone has forgot in two years but that sells many, many times more, since they'd need a big pile of stockholders to afford that crew, and the stockholders doesn't care about good games as much as they care about their stock increasing in value.

And as we all know from the two major publishers lots and lots of money doesn't mean the same as good games.

Personally I'd like the fancy stuff, but a game can be good without supah dupah craphics and stuff. What's more important is actual changes to the gameplay.

Could for example be systems for jamming, barrel changing, adjustable sights, working bipods, one-shot AT launchers, and so on. They require proportionally less work than the graphics do, and can thus be implemented for less money than fancy high-poly models, super-advanced shaders, normal- and bump-mapping on all objects, HDR lighting from all light sources, etc. and an expensive graphics engine.

So yes, new animations and stuff to more properly reflect the handling of each individual weapon would be sweet, but not as a big difference to actual gameplay and modding as other changes to the core engine can be.

[MehMan 0]

Now now, weapon handling is something that is sorely missed by a lot. I'd love to see proper bolt action rifles, proper vertical handgrip usage, properly held bullpup weapons, etc etc.

[rstratton 0]

dont hold your breath

[smellyjelly 0]

In Arma the weapons too solid. If you watch the first few seconds of this you can see how much the AK47 bends when shot. Though it may have to be exaggerated a little, adding this in Arma II may increase the immersion a bit.

[JeRK 0]

In Arma the weapons too solid. If you watch the first few seconds of this you can see how much the AK47 bends when shot. Though it may have to be exaggerated a little, adding this in Arma II may increase the immersion a bit.

"Slowed down 14 thousand times..."

That alone says why we DON'T need anything like that.

[MehMan 0]

In Arma the weapons too solid. If you watch the first few seconds of this you can see how much the AK47 bends when shot. Though it may have to be exaggerated a little, adding this in Arma II may increase the immersion a bit.

What? We're not talking about that, you missed the point.

[twisted 127]

Looks are nice but it's the action and 'feeling' that count most.

the more authentic the weapon operation the better.

Many things about Arma have evolved since OFP days. But the weapons have changed only a bit in look - although the ability to define a separate prone recoils stance is great.

a simple example would be bipods. Deployable bipods should be more than just eye-candy, and actually make a difference to the way a weapon works. Deploying a bipod takes time and your movement would be restricted when the bipod is down but there'd be the extra stability and reduced recoil. a tactical advantage that would be more authentic than simply going prone like now for instant bipod like recoil on machine guns.

certainly not holding my breath like the troll advised.

But to put a little other perspective here's a quote from OFP2 development. who knows whether that games going be good or shit as nothings really been seen of it. But the thinking behind the quote is nice.

"The core of the game is the gun in your hand, and it either keeping you alive or not keeping you alive," explains Clive Lindop, the game's senior designer, when I meet up with him later on. "We've put an enormous amount of work into replicating weaponry, both in terms of the physical thing in your hand - models and texture-wise - and everything that surrounds it: ballistics, different ammunition types, weights of ammunition, characteristics of the weapons themselves."

[JeRK 0]

ArmA already simulates the weight of weapons, you notice it if you aim a heavy weapon then switch to a lighter one..

What I'd really love to see is resting/supporting your gun. Red Orchestra does it brilliantly.

[Frank-O 0]

Weapon jams... totally missing in ArmA.

Statistically speaking, a round jams about 0.2-0.3% for a non-M-4/M-16 rifle, and 0.5% for a properly maintained M4/M16

in an extreme dusty combat condition.

Worst case situation? Using your trusty iron sight M4 and out of

every 2 clips, 1 round will jam... compared to 15 clips in say, an XM-8.

***

2006(2)-2007(2) inconclusive test.

Out of 6,000 rounds fired from 10 rifles of each type. the following jams occured in each rifle;

M4 had 882

FN-SCAR had 226

HK416 had 233

HK XM08 had 127

Summer test with lubrication applied to the M4

M-4 had 307

Fall test

M4 had 882

[twisted 127]

ArmA already simulates the weight of weapons, you notice it if you aim a heavy weapon then switch to a lighter one..

What I'd really love to see is resting/supporting your gun. Red Orchestra does it brilliantly.

yes, that's the dexterity setting in the config. but weight should also introduce fatigue so we see less machinegunners walking around with the m240 held up to their eyeballs.

then the choice of weapon would be more importnat in relation to the type of fighting (CQB vs longer range engagements).

[Frank-O 0]

Wall hugging? You almost never see infantry in urban settings walking down the middle of the street...unless we're playing a Judge Dredd sim?

Anyway to define walking/running paths down sides of the road instead down the middle of it for infantry?

You know how there's preset locations inside buildings? Can preset locations be put on each side of the windows inside the building, so they're looking out at an angle? This is inline with Dsylexci's combat manual, and which I follow for better survival in CQB.

Can preset locations for buildings have outside corners and doors? So that a 1 door building will have 2 presets at each corner on the outside, and 2 presets on either side of the single door entrance outside?

[Heatseeker 0]

Wall hugging? You almost never see infantry in urban settings walking down the middle of the street...unless we're playing a Judge Dredd sim?

Anyway to define walking/running paths down sides of the road instead down the middle of it for infantry?

You know how there's preset locations inside buildings? Can preset locations be put on each side of the windows inside the building, so they're looking out at an angle? This is inline with Dsylexci's combat manual, and which I follow for better survival in CQB.

Can preset locations for buildings have outside corners and doors? So that a 1 door building will have 2 presets at each corner on the outside, and 2 presets on either side of the single door entrance outside?

Thats way off topic but i believe its being worked on for Arma II (increased a.i. precision + cqb).

On topic..

Im sure most of you have realised that what you see in 1st person or 3rd person in Arma is identical .

I dont know how to explain it in technical terms but most other fps games often use a fake/inacurate 1st person animation of your shooting actions.

Thats why in most other fps games your bullets dont exit nor follow the direction/trajectory of the weapon barrel.

Its all very pretty but its all very fake, in Arma that thing you see yourself holding in 1st person view is real (in a virtual sort.. of.. reality).

I think i can elaborate on this .

What i would like to see BIS concentrate on is on the actual simulation of the weapons (getting the numbers wright).

[twisted 127]

What i would like to see BIS concentrate on is on the actual simulation of the weapons (getting the numbers wright).

Not sure what Frank is on about. but i agree with you heatseeker. that's the whole point - get the numbers right, but extending those numbers beyond the limited set now available. It's about raising the stakes on what can be done.

[Big Dawg KS 6]

thats not the point, the point is ARMA is lacking horrifically behind in regards to technology, the weapons barely animate when fired, as you said, some 'ancient' games have had these features, and yet doesn't it bother you that ARMA doesnt?

It doesn't bother me when a game doesn't have something it was never designed to need.

If you believe that because in ArmA your character holds a gun and is directly controlled through a first person perspective it needs to be a shooter, which is something that actually places primary emphasis on the shooting gameplay mechanic, then you're very close-minded.

Shooting is a very small part of ArmA. If you're playing this game with the hopes of finding an immersive and/or accurate shooting simulation then I suggest you look somewhere else. ArmA isn't all about the firearms or first person perspective, not for me at least. There are plenty of games that do this much better, why should one game have to do everything?

[twisted 127]

It doesn't bother me when a game doesn't have something it was never designed to need.

If you believe that because in ArmA your character holds a gun and is directly controlled through a first person perspective it needs to be a shooter, which is something that actually places primary emphasis on the shooting gameplay mechanic, then you're very close-minded.

Shooting is a very small part of ArmA. If you're playing this game with the hopes of finding an immersive and/or accurate shooting simulation then I suggest you look somewhere else. ArmA isn't all about the firearms or first person perspective, not for me at least. There are plenty of games that do this much better, why should one game have to do everything?

To me Arma is a battlefield simulation - and if you are not accurately simulating the weapons of the infantry (who are the core of the game) then a big chunk of the games premise is being massively under-capitalised.

Accurately simulating weapons can encourage greater teamwork and tactical deployments more similar to real world engagements. which is the point really isn't it? teamwork, big battlefields, feeling part of a battle and a team, working together, thinking tactically. they all are part of a process with the end aim of SHOOTING the enemy while not being shot oneself.

hhmmm, I think I may have misunderstood why they put weapons based on real ones in the game. If it's just to have things to point at the AI or players online then BIS could have put paintball guns in and maybe a few harry potter wands.

in fact what is the point of adding many newer features to the game if not to make the experience more immersive? why move beyond OFP then with it's base weapon and vehicle set?

[SHWiiNG 0]

I agree with the above statement.

I dont understand why BIS are adding so much graphical Buff when even with the best mods for ARMA i still dont feel like im in a battlefield

[SaBrE_UK 0]

There are times I think ArmA 2 has a lot going for it, yet threads like this do pick out things that could give the game so much immersion and detail that it so badly needs.

[Frank-O 0]

@twisted.

Topic heading. What needs to be next gen.

I'm talking about wpn jams and infantry road paths and exterior building locations for ai locations. I'm sorry if you don't feel these are next gen suggestions. It's up to the moderators to move my suggestions to another topic.

If you want to split hairs about not just how you hold a wpn and worry about where it's fired from. How many ai have you tagged firing around corners? It's the other end of the wpn, aka, target behavior I'm talking about. It's more immersive if I'm tagging an ai standing at the side of the window on the inside rather than a pop-up ai standing in the middle of the window. AI also run down the middle of the street. My suggestion is to have them run down the sides of roads sticking to cover by building walls, or off the road in ditches next to roads when not in the city.

Specifically dealing with wpn handling on the shooter side;

hot ejecting cartridges that do damage if you get hit.

Back blast from launcher fire.

Concussions from firing AT inside a room.

wrapping forearm around carrying strap to steady shot.

Knee bracing the barrel grip when crouched.

non-linear drop-off from ammo computation.

ricochets that maim/kill.

resting wpn barrels on sandbag walls/slits or window sills, chairs inside.

Do these stay on topic, or am I losing peeps again?

[Heatseeker 0]

That sounds so easy but lets give it some more though...

There is a.i. in this game so if you create a function/feature you will expect the a.i. to be fully integrated too.

You will expect the a.i. to take rocket back blasts into serious consideration, know how, where and when to deploy that MG bipod, etc.

So.. it ends up not being that simple .

But we are still off topic so its better to let it go or use another thread .

[twisted 127]

resting wpn barrels on sandbag walls/slits or window sills, chairs inside.

yeah this would be great.

[Lou Montana 101]

hot ejecting cartridges that do damage if you get hit.

Pretty hard to deal with, especially if you are left-handed

[SHWiiNG 0]

hot ejecting cartridges that do damage if you get hit.

Pretty hard to deal with, especially if you are left-handed

Hot cartrages dont do that much damage, really i think that would be bit over the top, that way you wouldnt be able to go in all round defence in a tight formation, which would be rather pointless