counter measures for aircraft

[kavoven 4]

And with that theory of yours we shouldn't have Surface-to-Air or Air-to-Air Missiles either.

Than perhaps we shouldn't have any air activities at all?

You have to draw the line at some point. Since the islands in ArmA are so small, you can't use planes in a realistic way. I mean, in RL the US would set up some satellites, spy the enemy positions and bomb them to hell.

As you can see in the ArmA campaign, this isn't the case. So why put in flares if you do not have any use for them? The question would be different if ArmA had landscapes much larger than Sahrani.

But asking for couter measures for aircrafts in ArmA is like asking for portable AT weapons in a flight simulator. Nice extra, but time can be spent otherwise.

[Frank-O 0]

My RPG request;

http://www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin....t=72618

My Veh request;

http://www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin....t=72619

You're right. There's other addons that prob has priority to implement.

But the human factor makes the flare/chaffe addon more important.

If there's a human vs human factor on the firing of AA missiles, it adds to the playing environment.

Portable Mortars

GPS/spotter artillery and air strike scripts

Smoke screen for tanks and wheeled veh

Firing as a passenger on a helo (as a selling point, I feel this is useless too)

[ricnunes 0]

Than perhaps we shouldn't have any air activities at all?

You have to draw the line at some point. Since the islands in ArmA are so small, you can't use planes in a realistic way. I mean, in RL the US would set up some satellites, spy the enemy positions and bomb them to hell.

As you can see in the ArmA campaign, this isn't the case. So why put in flares if you do not have any use for them? The question would be different if ArmA had landscapes much larger than Sahrani.

Look, I see where you're getting into but notice that HELICOPTERS also use Flares (and Chaff, ECM, IR jammers as well) and a bit as opposed to fixed-wing aircraft you definitly can use Helicopters in a realistic way in ArmA! And Flares are one of the most important defensive "system" that any modern military helicopter has.

Also while the US military can have all of those resources such as Sattelites, Superior Air Power, etc... to destroy the enemy all of that power can NEVER effectivelly neutralize (at least completly) a simple man with a Strella or Igla

And regarding to your question "So why put in flares if you do not have any use for them?" I have the following answer:

-Speak for yourself!! You see, I usually play as a helicopter pilot in ArmA (both multiplayer and when possible in Single player as well) and I was shot down countless times because of those pesky soldiers with Strellas, and I'm sure that if I had flares in those helicopters like the real ones have I would probably have survive an another countless times!

Quote[/b] ]But asking for couter measures for aircrafts in ArmA is like asking for portable AT weapons in a flight simulator. Nice extra, but time can be spent otherwise.

If in that flight simulator you could play as a foot soldier than yes, it would be reasonable request. You see, the diference is that ArmA isn't a dedicated flight sim and it isn't also a dedicated foot soldier simulation (like Ghost Recon for example), it is a WARGAME simulator which allows the players to play as foot soldiers, pilots, tank crew, etc..

Also ArmA is designed to be a realistic WARGAME (Yes, it was the developers themselfs that said this) and being a REALISTIC Wargame it must be as realistic as possible, so if we have aircraft in ArmA like in real war scenario and we also have SAMs in ArmA like in real war scenario, we must also have countermeasures like in real war scenario as well. Period!

Let me give you a full list of reasons why we should have countermeasures (at least Flares and Chaffs):

1- Because it's realistic and ArmA is a realistic oriented WARGAME simulation.

2- Because most combat aircraft (Helicopters and fixed-wing) have Flares in reality and ArmA is a realistic oriented WARGAME simulation.

3- Because there are SAMs in ArmA and if there are SAM there are countermeasures as well as if there a gun there's also ammo. A bit of an "universal truth".

4- Because ArmA already models foot soldiers with the best realism in terms of foot soldier so it's time to evolve and improve the other parts of the game, as for example AIRCRAFT.

5- As opposed to what you said, player that prefer or play with aircraft REALLY NEED Countermeasures (again there are SAM out there in ArmA).

6- Because it's possible! Like I previously said in a previous post there are Addons out there for ArmA that already model and have Flares (and even perhaps other countermeasure types).

7- I'm sure that I could come up wih many many more reasons, but I think those are enough for now...

[NoRailgunner 0]

At least some kind of chaff and flares would be better than nothing. Some little visual effects and possible 50/50 damage or lethal hit from Stinger/Strela and more people would be happy with ArmA. In modern combat LGB are standoff weapons - pilots in planes will fire those from safe distance. For gameplay issues many things are simplified. Maybe a simple CM and ECM will be in ArmA2 with first release....

ricnunes and k@voven maybe you both try Mando Missile

[subs17 9]

Yeah Chaff and flares is quite important as its also needed for dogfights between the jets. The IR jammer would work well against rear aspect missiles maybe they could have a script that if the jammer is on then the missile loses track and flys off somewhere away from the tgt. Thing about jammers is that its a double edged weapon by using them it makes radar lock more difficult until burn through but by using it, it lets the enemy know the area where you are using it. Although Arama is a war sim I think such features would add to the game.

[subs17 9]

OFP/ArmA never was and won't be a flight-sim. The areas are simply too small.

I think flares are some kind of extras which just eat up time that could be spend on other, more important things.

Actually you are quite wrong the area is large enough for a good air battle but it depends on the type of aircraft used. eg A-10 and the AV8B are well suited and so too would Mig29A and the F/A-18 because of the shorter range. Is Arma 2 going to have a bigger area than Arma is the question.

[kavoven 4]

ricnunes, I admit that you're right with helicopters, I like flying them too and they could use flares. I wont argue any longer since we wouldn't get anywhere, so lets see what BIS will do about it

[ricnunes 0]

Hi k@voven,

I just want to say that I understand your point about the fixed aircraft, specially about the "high performing" ones such as the Su-34 present in ArmA and I also have my reservations about the inclusion of those kind of aircraft in ArmA because of same reason that the ArmA map seems too small to operate such aircraft.

In terms of fixed wing combat aircraft I prefer to see Close Air Support aircraft such as the A-10 and AV-8B (present in ArmA) and Su-25 (for the "East" forces), between others instead of "high performing" ones (such as Su-27, Su-34, Mig-29, F/A-18, F-16, F-15, etc...). But nevertheless those "high performing" aircraft are well present in these games (ArmA has the Su-34, ArmA2 will have the F-35 JSF) and if you can model countermeasures for Helicopters you could as easily model for fixed-wing aircraft...

[ricnunes 0]

Actually you are quite wrong the area is large enough for a good air battle but it depends on the type of aircraft used. eg A-10 and the AV8B are well suited and so too would Mig29A and the F/A-18 because of the shorter range. Is Arma 2 going to have a bigger area than Arma is the question.

Actually according to this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ArmA

and this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ArmA_2

It seems that the ArmA map (Sharani) has an area of 400 square kilometers while ArmA2 map will have an area of 240 square kilometers, which of means that the map of ArmA2 will be considerably smaller than the one of ArmA (Sahrani).

But agree that Countermasures (such as Flares and Chaffs) would also be very usefull during dogfights/air-to-air combats.

[mandoble 1]

Already present in ArmA,

.

[max power 21]

Already present in ArmA,

.

That's not present in ArmA, Mando, that's modded into it.

[mandoble 1]

Er well, 90% of "things" (scripts, functions or addons) available for ArmA are not present in stock ArmA. that's true

[JeRK 0]

Actually you are quite wrong the area is large enough for a good air battle but it depends on the type of aircraft used. eg A-10 and the AV8B are well suited and so too would Mig29A and the F/A-18 because of the shorter range. Is Arma 2 going to have a bigger area than Arma is the question.

Actually according to this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ArmA

and this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ArmA_2

It seems that the ArmA map (Sharani) has an area of 400 square kilometers while ArmA2 map will have an area of 240 square kilometers, which of means that the map of ArmA2 will be considerably smaller than the one of ArmA (Sahrani).

But agree that Countermasures (such as Flares and Chaffs) would also be very usefull during dogfights/air-to-air combats.

That's counting water. Land-wise, Sahrani is smaller I think.

[mr.g-c 6]

Er well, 90% of "things" (scripts, functions or addons) available for ArmA are not present in stock ArmA. that's true

Hehe yes, but please answer me: How long did it take for you to script these flares?

Do you agree with me that a complete team like BIS would need "just" a day of programming to implement something like this?

If so, then there is NO reason for BIS to NOT implement it...

No matter if Arma2 will be a flight-sim or not, Countermeasures are one of the small things, quick programmed, but adds much immersion and realistic playability to it (Its called " The Ultimate Military Simulation") in which ARMA and OFP are truely lacking. Even on small Rhamadi this makes sense (at least for Helicopters), or do you guys still want the always-hit-their-target anti-air-missles still in Arma2?

Regards, Christian

[mandoble 1]

Do you agree with me that a complete team like BIS would need "just" a day of programming to implement something like this?

Of course nope. Chaff, flares or even ECM require not only some funny visual effects, there are much more involved there to make sure the playability, fun and "fair game" will not be negatively affected while at the same time you try to resemble how these systems works in RL. Just a small example, a player in a plane vs an incomming AMRAAM. First the game should provide you a warning, as your current visuals and head movement control will not allow you to identify the menace visually. So you need a warning, but not only a warning, in fact you need a RWR showing at least the bearing of the missile (or missiles). Then you will decide when to drop chaff, drop and break, drop and break and always considering the direction of the incoming missile. Now the missile needs to be able to know "which" target is more attractive at each time, the chaff of your plane? And even after passing through the chaff cloud, the missile might pretty well keep tracking you if you are still into its detection cone. Now add the AI into the equation, as the AI should be able to use countermeasures too, and in the correct way, and also depending on AI skill (which mando missiles has a reaction time and distance from missile to start any reaction). Definitively not a day, definitively not a week and probably definitively not a month.

[ricnunes 0]

Obviously implementing countermeasures in ArmA or ArmA2 isn't a one of programming but nevertheless it will be 100% possible to implement that in ArmA2.

If the ArmA2 devs don't want to spend too much time implementing countermeasures in ArmA2 all they need to do is to use the excelent Mando Missiles work.

[mr.g-c 6]

...... Definitively not a day, definitively not a week and probably definitively not a month.

Im not a Programmer, but:

Are you sure? You tell me that a whole bunch of Programmers and modelers need this long for it when they working around 8 hours a day on it? Are you kidding?

Please would you be so kind to tell me honestly how long you took, JUST for your countermeasures system (in hours please) within mando-missles.

I'll also ask Thunderbird84 as he has also a great countermeasure system realized in his FFUR mod for OFP. Same goes for WGL....

I don't believe a programming-crew will take this long to program it (without the testing-phase of course).

Best Regards, Christian

[subs17 9]

The time taken to model such features depends on how detailed its going to be. If you look at Armas current missile lock system it is very basic involving simply facing the tgt and pushing the lock button to lock the tgt. If they model IR counter measures then they would also need to model the IR homing sensor on the missile. Its something that would take quite a while to perfect particularly when you add terrain/objects/sun/water effects/gimbal limits for the seeker etc. Then theres probability of lock tgt aspect and then the effect of a flare or IR jammer and probability of missile losing lock. Its definately something that would take more than one day to make especially what Mandoble said about the AI could take months of testing to perfect something like that to get it to work properly. But its still a good feature maybe alot of such work has already been done anyway I wonder how IR missiles are modeled in Arma2 did they make it more detailed or is it just copied across from Arma?

[mr.g-c 6]

No, i'm at the point that i think we have a slightly different picture about how such a countermeasure system should work.

I personally think the "basic" and "fully automatic" Systems like in the OFP mods FFUR and WGL are more then enough.

So the AI-part falls nearly completely away. The AI fires the missiles like usual and then there is a randomized probability based on the rocket-type, if the missle take the plane/chopper as target or the deployed flares/chaff. So the AI don't need to be aware of the countermeasure because its automatic.

The mentioned OFP mods show it pretty clear and good that it works flawlessly and that it adds a lot of immersion and realism.

Regards, Christian

[Thunderbird 0]

Achieving a script of this nature depends on the objectives you set in advance: (Realism factor = The highest the realism is, the more time you will need to develp the script in question [Velocity of Flares/Chaffs - Efficiency, Speed, Form, Size...] according to specific military references).

But a very basic and simple script of this nature, (by taking into consideration the bug fixes/enhancements during the development) shouldn't take that much of time (A matter of a few days).

The one included in the last version in FFUR has been carried out by the BAS MOD, since the ancient FFUR scripts were causing huge performance drops.

Regards,

TB