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Clarification on the MLOD release issue.

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Its allright saying " what could be done in flashpoint can be done here " but myself and probably many others were not involved much with flashpoint and dont realy have a clue what the practices were then.

whats needed is a basic yes or no answer:-

1:- Skinning a BIS models for reuse in Arma - YES/NO?

2:- Re using/modifying a BIS model for use in ARMA -YES/NO?

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If essentially anything based on unofficially released BIS MLOD's is illegal, then I am afraid that my mod (the oldest surviving mod from OFP) may disappear as it will die or at a mnimum, ...

Any time you use any copyrighted work without a permission of the copyright holder, you risk the copyright holder may not like it and may request you not to use it, or in severe cases might take a legal action.

This does not mean the copyright holder will act on any such use, but he may act, once he sees a usage which he thinks could cause him some damage.

If someone wants to be 100 % sure, the best way is never to use a copyrighted content without a permission, and to never violate EULAs you have accepted. Once you start trespassing those borders, you are in the gray area - as long as you do not cause any damage, the copyright holder will most likely do not mind your activities (why should he?), but you are "left at his mercy", and sometimes it may happen (like it was in this case of MLOD models) that even when somebody meant no harm, the copyright holder had reasons to think some harm was done and acts accordingly.

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I must admit that the new policy somewhat restrains the freedom in terms of "Modelling".

In my judgement, the best way to fix the current issue is to make all MLODs public, but as stated above, by implementing a hexadecimal encryption process (64 Bits or above/Making O2 core system compatible as well) in order to make the models exclusively and solely usuable with O2.

Regards,

TB

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Quote[/b] ]As for the MLODS: documentation is 10x more important. Since the beggining of my ArmA modding I had to redo my models every few months and now I have again thanks to only recently announced "actually it's the number of sections that causes problems".

Would have been much easier if I knew it a year ago...

The Sharing of Information should start somewhere.

If it didnt start with others, why doesn't it start with you? (Or others like you?).

Everyone is asking for documentation, but nobody is up to sharing his information, except with some local friends here and there.

The community should work better together. There is 1 Central Storage, which is the BIKI. All (few?) different guides that are out there should be incorporated into it, and all handy details and ins and outs should be listed. Wiki's are great for this because you can make and discuss changes and additions.

Kinda like my MP Scripting Editor Guide...

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The Sharing of Information should start somewhere.

People who have real informations have no time to share them.

Sharing my misconceptions with others leads to nowhere.

If information doesn't come from developers I cannot guarantee it's not the other way around. I will not share bogus info that I have no way of veryfying.

How engine works is a mystery. I cannot tell if the lack of AS maps on BIS weapons is due to performance considerations or lack of time. How can I either recommend using or not using AS maps?

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I must admit that the new policy somewhat restrains the freedom in terms of "Modelling".

IMHO you have that backwards. If your going to rely on the work of others to produce models then you are restricting your "freedom" and creativity.

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Quote[/b] ]But is good to know that a game licensed by Codemasters and developed by BIS belongs to the licenser and not to who did it.

As far, as i know, You are wrong. The name "Operation Flashpoint" belongs to Codemaster, the game (engine, models and all the stuff) belongs to BIS. Thats why we have ArmA, not a OFP2. So, it's strange, that one says Arma is complitely new game.

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I must admit that the new policy somewhat restrains the freedom in terms of "Modelling".

IMHO you have that backwards. If your going to rely on the work of others to produce models then you are restricting your "freedom" and creativity.

Yes, this can be seen from this point of view as well.

But what was meant, is simply that MLODs are necessary, not only for beginners but for long-established modellers too, as MLODs are for sure, what kept OFP alive so long.

- (Save efforts = [You don't have to build a complete new version of a vehicule which is already available in ArmA])

- (Save time = [spend more time to polish little details => Increase the addon's quality])

And I'm sure, a lot of modellers of these boards will give more reasons for having MLODs.

regards,

TB

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Yes, this can be seen from this point of view as well.

But what was meant, is simply that MLODs are necessary, not only for beginners but for long-established modellers too, as MLODs are for sure, what kept OFP alive so long.

- (Save efforts = [You don't have to build a complete new version of a vehicule which is already available in ArmA])

- (Save time = [spend more time to polish little details => Increase the addon's quality])

And I'm sure, a lot of modellers of these boards will give more reasons for having MLODs.

regards,

TB

I have to agree with you, this is exactly what I tried to explain before, save efforts and save time. smile_o.gif

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@ Feb. 05 2008,13:24)]
The Sharing of Information should start somewhere.

People who have real informations have no time to share them.

Sharing my misconceptions with others leads to nowhere.

If information doesn't come from developers I cannot guarantee it's not the other way around. I will not share bogus info that I have no way of veryfying.

How engine works is a mystery. I cannot tell if the lack of AS maps on BIS weapons is due to performance considerations or lack of time. How can I either recommend using or not using AS maps?

If we keep on saying and believing that (those with knowledge are too busy), then we're only ourselves to blame for our weak dispersion of information and large question marks on how things work.

We expect and demand it all from BI, but we're all too good to write ourselves smile_o.gif

1. Work together on getting experience. Experience is knowledge. Knowledge is power. You can measure results by trial and error as you're doing already. It doesn't have to be 100% valid, it should work, and anyone finding an error can fix it in the docs, just like with any other user-made-documentation on wiki/biki.

2. Ask Suma or whoever knows about Model and Texturing. I have always had success with asking specific Questions. Listening to Jerry's Interview with Suma, does reveal that they do answer some specific questions, whenever possible

I truelly believe that Community Cooperation is vital. We can't rely on BI; they're gamedevelopers, they don't document every aspect. As such those with knowledge, in any area, should save this into the BIKI as much as possible. You only need a couple of ppl doing this to book some results.

For scripting etc I see it happen everywhere,

for Modelling/texturing/island creation I see it a lot less (Altough I must admit im not really into that 'scene' myself, so I could be wrong tounge2.gif)

Maybe the problem is the competition, why share your super optimized and cool mod skills, if you can use them to be better than the rest or whatsoever. Just throwing up some food for thought here, im not too much involved in such affaires myself.

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I must admit that the new policy somewhat restrains the freedom in terms of "Modelling".

What new policy? It's been said numerous times now, the problem arose because someone decided to rip open every ArmA model and post them on a website where anyone and everyone can download them unrestricted with no EULA or anything, if that was done with Flashpoint the same drama would have arisen, it's not a policy....

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I must admit that the new policy somewhat restrains the freedom in terms of "Modelling".

What new policy? It's been said numerous times now, the problem arose because someone decided to rip open every ArmA model and post them on a website where anyone and everyone can download them unrestricted with no EULA or anything, if that was done with Flashpoint the same drama would have arisen, it's not a policy....

So as i understand it,

the old & new policy says that:

Quote[/b] ]Anyone can rip open any and all Models from ArmA and use them for their own work as long as nobody can download such resources from webspace freely accessible to anyone.

If so, we´ll soon only see addons/mods from a very small part of the formerly so called "community".

Not good .. not at all confused_o.gif

PS: And plz don´t start questioning my theory with EULA quotes. You know it will be like that if no sample modells are released soon.

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Quote[/b] ]What new policy? It's been said numerous times now, the problem arose because someone decided to rip open every ArmA model and post them on a website where anyone and everyone can download them unrestricted with no EULA or anything, if that was done with Flashpoint the same drama would have arisen, it's not a policy..

Sorry, this is just confusing as I was convinced that it was authorized to convert the original ODOL files to MLODs, and even make them public as long as they belong to BIS.

Regards,

TB

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@Sickboy

Sounds to me you're blaming the community for lack of progress.

I have allready, on these boards, shared everything I know.

If you want me to collect it all in one thread I can do it, np.

Then you'll see results and we'll speak about it.

One more thing: wiki is a mess.

If you want to clean it up - do it.

Don't tell others, just do it yourself.

As it is now putting anything in there will result in people comming in and asking me the same thing many times afterwards - noone reads it.

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ok, ok, i think i've got it.

correct me if i'm wrong...

BUT.

In this CASE, the models, were decoded, and published as standalone, on a ftp, so can, anyone access them... no matter if he owns ArmA or not. So this is illegal.

Also, in OFP, we used to have ODOL Explorer a converter, that required, to download set up -etc etc so you could able to unbinarise, the models, from the pbo, that you supposed to have, (Cause you have bought ArmA).

So, it's like putting ArmA bis pbos somewhere, for download, (and since that is illegal) then MLODs for download it's illegal too.

So, we come to a conclusion, that if someone makes a tool, (like ODOL exploere for OFP), then there won't be a problem, if someone decodes a model to MLOD, from BIS pbos, do the changes, and put publish it (only for ArmA usage)..

So is that the case? that we spent 6 pages, to make it understandable?

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@ Feb. 05 2008,16:29)]...
Quote[/b] ]Sounds to me you're blaming the community for lack of progress.
You got that right. Pride, whining and Personal Agenda's; the cause if you ask me. If half would whine less, and the other half wouldn't let their pride come in the way, I bet it could've already been better smile_o.gif

We build the community, mods, addons and information resources while they (BI) builds the game(engine).

The info we can not retrieve ourselves by trial and error or looking stuff up, we can ask to them (BI).

Quote[/b] ]I have allready, on these boards, shared everything I know.

If you want me to collect it all in one thread I can do it, np.

Then you'll see results and we'll speak about it.

Sure, a good start, altough such information belongs in a wiki, not in a thread. For things to work, one must start, others should follow.
Quote[/b] ]One more thing: wiki is a mess.

If you want to clean it up - do it.

Don't tell others, just do it yourself.

I never said the wiki was a mess, so "do it yourself" is far from accurate here. I work on the wiki, where needed and where possible.

I do not believe the wiki is a mess. A wiki is not an ordinary site. A wiki is a wiki; An information resource where you can look up specific information for what you're looking for. Wiki is just perfectly fine as it is if you ask me (structure wise, not content wise).

Quote[/b] ]As it is now putting anything in there will result in people comming in and asking me the same thing many times afterwards - noone reads it.
Sure nobody will read it and everyone will keep asking. When they ask, you send the link to the wiki. We get a webring of friends together who put the links to the Model / Texture wiki in their Signatures. We contact OFPEC, armedassault.info and other news sites to report the news about the great guide and information resource that was setup on the biki. etc. etc.

Solutions and ways to go are endless. It's only limited due to narrowmindness and unwillingness.

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ok, i remembered something else....

a question i asked, in this thread.

thread about addon rules (A&M complete).

i've copied Placebo's answer... and pasted here.

Quote (XSparky @ Jan. 15 2008,14:56)

since OFP time , i was wondering.

Do we need permission to use BIS addons, for the same game??

and in particular, for retextures of BIS units, or remodell etc etc...

No you do not need BIS' permission for using our stuff within our own games, as long as it's not for any kind of commercial product.

Now, i believe it's still the same..

But, the difference is, that with MLODs for public ftps available to download, you can't control who downloads them (owns the game or not).

Now i'd like to suggest, since this discussion, has gone too far...Maybe we should find a talented coder, to create an ODOL/MLOD converter... biggrin_o.gif

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But, the difference is, that with MLODs for public ftps available to download, you can't control who downloads them (owns the game or not).

Anyone in need of ArmA Modells who also has the appropriate knowledge to work with them can still illegally download ArmA from numerous filesharing networks (or even buy it).

FADE isn´t of help anymore either, that´s why Suma expressed in the JerryHopper interview that he´s happy about every player who bought ArmA, but not about people who hadn´t bought it.

This all let´s the MLOD issue look staged and pardox as the only ones who suffer from it are the comunity.

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@Burns:

I believe the community doesn't suffer if the MLOD's may not be hosted without EULA's on public sites.

What is the suffering of the community? Having an EULA file inside the zip with mlods they downloaded?

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@MrBurns.

I believe that you can't control that, you can have

addonmakers with illegal ArmA

MP players with illegal ArmA

even generally players.....

so, if we start thinking this way, maybe, bis should stop, supporting the community at all. Cause you don't know who has a legal and who has an illegal copy of the game.

@Sick boy, i agree 100% with you. I believe, that every time, that someone finds something that isnt' so convenient for himself the whining starts.

Also who asks, should receives answers, and who searches shall find.

As far as me and my MOD, we believe that BIS has provided us (and the whole community too) with every mean necessary.

(OK maybe visitor is too hard to understand). Plus, they are there, every time we send, a pm, asking for questions. (God Bless Armored Sheep biggrin_o.gif ).

Ok, i'll give an other example, of how, i understand BIS position.

Since, i'm a modeller, and everything that i'm modelling is for OFP/ArmA, i would be VERY ANGRY, if tomorrow, i see one of my modells stripped down, in a site, on a ftp.

I believe that every modeller,feels the same. wink_o.gif

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I'm not a modeller by any real measure (just getting into it), but it would appear as though if it were possible to convert from ODOL to MLOD, do your alterations and then convert back to ODOL, you should be able to host BIS content anywhere, yes? If it's even possible to do that. Binarize? Because if not, that means to me, that you'd have to model the objects yourself for any models that are not released from BIS(i.e: UH-60), from scratch. That's inefficiency at it's best.

@Sickboy

I see what you mean about the community working together and knowledge, and availability of information. From someone just getting acquianted with scripts, modelling and texturing for the first time, in OFP or ARMA, I do believe the WIKI is a rather 'head-scratching' location for info though. %100 better than nothing at all though.

@Thunderbird

Exactly.

@BIS

This seems like a hasty, retalliatory undertaking which I think will only really effect those un-seasoned addon makers/modellers that still have the enthusiasm to get in the thick of it. I understand the stance taken, but I do believe the MLOD stance should have been taken in tandem with the solution BIS is proposing; if any.

Anyway,hopefully RockofSL will have some time to work on a tutorial. Maybe a combined plethora of tutorials will help people get past the ODOL editing issue and create their own. Hopefully.

confused_o.gif

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so, if we start thinking this way, maybe, bis should stop, supporting the community at all.

http://files.filefront.com/suma+fi....fo.html

If you take the time listening to this interview you´ll notice that BIS actually plans to withdraw from the PC community already.

This was first stated in an interview with placebo around the beginning of 2007 btw.

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.

We build the community, mods, addons and information resources while they (BI) builds the game(engine).

The info we can not retrieve ourselves by trial and error or looking stuff up, we can ask to them (BI).....

You can tell a lot about a person by the wordings..THEY...WE ..THEM,not a bloody war m8.

The community lack of progress,u agreed on this question?screw you!i know some guys who spend bloody hours of thier free time doing stuff.look whos doing the addons/mods then look at the whining etc.And it seems to me that you expect peope like me who cant make shit,but enjoy using addons/scripts,etc,to sort of worship you?ermmm no m8,..anyway back on topic.

Its been explained to me in simple ginger welsh terms what the hype is about,so some1 has ripped certain BIS files/models models for every1 to use,when they knew that they were not allowed??

no wounder they pissed off

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This does not mean the copyright holder will act on any such use, but he may act, once he sees a usage which he thinks could cause him some damage.

I'm quite sure Suma dont think addonmaking will cause him some damage..

If I'm not mistaken, use of BIS mlods:

Nothing will happen as long as it doesnt hurt BIS.

And thats fair and as it always have been.

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