All Mods For Different Countries Are Bad Idea?

[SlipperyJim 0]

First off I need to make it very clear that this thread is not meant to be disrespectful in any way towards the hard work that mod makers do. You guys are the best.

Last night I was looking through all the mods in development shown at Armaholic and two things struck me that I wanted to post about:

1) A lot of great mods in development are ruined (if you pardon that expression) because the mod maker wants to make it a "Greek" tank or a "Italian" helicopter or a "Chinese" uniform. They may be modeling an American made vehicle but they want to add a country flag from where they live on the side of the vehicle. Why limit your mod so much? It seems a shame to do this. It is great that you are patriotic but more people would enjoy your mod if it wasn't so restrictive. Perhaps also release a different version of your addon that isn't so restricted?

2) So many mods won't ever get finished because they are biting off more than they can chew. For instance they plan on making all these vehicles for a large "Chinese" mod or a large "Turkish" mod but the cold hard reality is that 90% them will NEVER get finished. Perhaps team up with other mod makers instead and make a mod not based on a specific country (or do the countries involved in Arma instead).

These is a lot of amazing freaking talent in the community but it all seems splintered. Everyone is off doing mods for their own country.

Hopefully people will not take this thread in a negative way. A big thanks to all mod makers for your efforts and good luck with your projects!

[sparky 0]

Well here is the point of my view....

Speaking about HWM-Greek.

There is a difference between an addon and a mod, (in fact any addon is a mod). So I analyze further and say Total Conversion Mod. That means in simple words something like an unofficial expansion or whatever you like to name it.

So this mod has to have addons (vehicles,weapons,units,islands) missions/campaign, config/scripting enhancements, sounds GUI etc etc etc... Somehow almost everything has to be changed in order to achieve that.

Now since HWM, means Hellenic Warfare Mod, naturally the development will be focused on Greek Army. The same goes for other mods.

So it's hard to expect for small teams that usually do this for fun (not patriotic reasons) to focus on other things other than the achievement of the purpose of the mods target. If we haven't a target for a specific mod creation, but simply we wanted to demonstrate our skills and create new content then we wouldn't be a mod group but an addon group.

[abs 2]

I think you put it well, XSparky. I also see where you're coming from, SlipperyJim.

The thing is, it's also hard to find talent in the community. Take a look around, and you'll see that there are far more people requesting addons than making them. In order to work on a mod, you've got to be interested in making the content or else it all just turns into tedium. To be honest, I wouldn't be very interested in making American stuff, even though a lot of the Canadian gear in use is similar.

That being said, I wouldn't mind letting other talented addon makers modify my work and convert it into American gear...but only after I release my stuff. Selfish? Maybe. I've just put too much work into ONS to want other people to release my stuff first.

Abs

[Sniperwolf572 758]

Besides, camouflage and country designations are more than just tagging a vehicle with a specific country flag or some other kind of insignia, as there isn't a magical generic camo pattern that will make it authentic to any force that uses it in a given scenario.

[Benoist 0]

1) If anyone wants to modificate those vehicles you ask for permition (normaly they agree) and then, retext (or use O2 to modificate somethings).

2) Yeap, that the problem when you don't have a solid group, the group is lazy, big expectatives, they are tire or because they think that what the have done it's enough.

Normaly a mod maker wants to create a WHOLE new world, but if he do that the release date will be in, let's say, when ArmA has Ragdoll physics.

[SlipperyJim 0]

XSparky I understand what you are saying but to me a mod and addon are the same thing. It modifies the game or adds content in some fashion.

A total conversion is just a larger collection of mods/addons that completely changes the look or feel of a game.

As for making a mod/addon country specific when I look at screenshots of the "HWM-Greek" mod, as an example, I look at the model of the Huey and I think "wow, freaking fantastic work but I would prefer it to be American". Perhaps this is just me being too North American (I am Canadian) but when I think of a Huey I think of America in Vietnam.

I would love to see the Huey released without the Greek markings so that people can use it in their regular Arma maps. Yes, I guess I am just being selfish but it would be great to have all the vehicles match with the existing countries in the game's story.

I didn't mean to single anyone out. The HWM-Greek mod/addon was just a good example of what I was trying to communicate (no doubt badly).

[JdB 151]

XSparky I understand what you are saying but to me a mod and addon are the same thing. It modifies the game or adds content in some fashion.

When looking at the categories of large OFP sites, and what they're filled with, a mod is a collection of addons, that enhance the game not just with new units but also with new animations, often a campaign and new effects. The term "mod" as being a single addon, or even an alteration of original files, has only been in use since ArmA, when people from other communities came in and started using it.

I've seen the term "total conversion" used only scarcely, and when it was used, it was often in the context of an "uber-mod".

People working on what they want is something you simply cannot stop, no forum post will make people developing addons or mods change their mind about that. It's not just a matter of national pride, it's can also be that resource material is easier to come by, people having served in the armed forces, working at a factory that produces something related to the military etc, and above all: excitement about the subject. For some people the armed forces of their own nationality isn't interesting enough, but they enjoy working on Russian aircraft, someone else may not like tanks etc.

People shouldn't just concentrate on the major players because others want them too, if those people want to have an addon in a different camo or with a different flag, they should make it themselves, or hope the author can be pursueded to make more variants for them, instead of stopping to work on "lesser countries".

In the end, everyone should be happy that he gets anything at all, it's not like anyone besides BIS is getting paid for being here.

[oyman 0]

and then people will complian about not enough addons out

[SlipperyJim 0]

People working on what they want is something you simply cannot stop, no forum post will make people developing addons or mods change their mind about that.

No of course not. Just like your posting won't necessarily change anyone else's opinion either, lol. It works both ways

In the end I am putting out the idea that mod makers should think about releasing non-country specific versions of their addons/mods (by that I mean make a version that fits into Arma's theme). After they have done such fine work it seems silly to limit their audience.

[abs 2]

Does it really limit the audience, though? Look at OFP and FDF. Who didn't play that mod? Before that mod was released, I didn't even know about the Finnish Defence Forces - yet I had a blast playing it. Same applies to CSLA.

Abs

[arigram 0]

Any vehicle, unit or weapon will be country specific. There is no way around it. First you have the big cold war divide of NATO-Soviet/Russian weaponry and their client countries. Then you have the countries within those groups producing their own weapons such as Germany and China and selling those to their clients. Unless a said country is a producer of weapons, it will use equipment manufactured from other countries. There are some that carry a mix of equipment of different origins, lets say Greece, that I am familiar with of which arsenal comprises of American, German, Russian and Greek-made weaponry.

Americans tend to have a certain arrogant viewpoint that anything not American is alien and foreign and not acceptable. Frankly there is plenty of content to please North Americans as it is the largest market and companies want to cater to their desires. Frankly, it is quite possible that the rest of the world is tired of pretending to be the All American Hero and that is a main source of the desire for creating mod content.

Often, a model created of a certain weapon/vehicle is not country agnostic. The greek H&K G3 can well be carried by certain armies such as the Norwegian troops, but it the Turkish G3 is somewhat different in shape. At the same time, the greek Huey may well be similar to the american vietnam version, but may have a different configuration, including the weaponry, which is not limited to the camo and insignia.

In the end, it boils down to the desire of the content creator to cater to specific countries. One can limit themselves to their national origins or select a couple of other countries to cater to. For example, airplanes in Flight Simulator come with a limited set of livery which may or may not include the one you desire.

The problem with Armed Assault from the start is the fact that it includes two fictional armies, but also one of an existing country, made only to help expand to that market. Thus, members of that market are in a sense spoilt and demand that all extra content to cater to their desires, the A-10 for example.

Armed Assault has covered most of different types of weaponry and vehicles. For example, the Huey is just a transport helicopter, not different to the Blackhawk. Its gameplay differences are minimal.

Since I mentioned greek armed forces, having being a number of the HWM in the past, I have been a witness to the problem in selecting the content to be created. Unlike let's say the german or french mod teams, the HWM team has the problem of creating equipment produced by other countries in its goal to build a realistic arsenal of the Hellenic Army. Certain vehicles and weaponry created originally in Greece has been considered but at present for many reasons not dealt with. The Huey has been the first vehicle to be requested in other than greek versions, even though the first pack contained the M113 and Leopard 1, all foreign designs. The fact that the members of the HWM took time to create a US army version to please North Americans is something to be taken as lets say generosity, not bending to demands. The RACS version is more suited to the Armed Assault world and is country-agnostic.

In short, if a mod maker does not comform to your nationalistic demands, then, tough luck.

[Teliko 0]

Look at OFP and FDF. Who didn't play that mod? Before that mod was released, I didn't even know about the Finnish Defence Forces - yet I had a blast playing it. Same applies to CSLA.

Quoted for truth, that's a really good example of how having different nations doesn't limit anything.

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

I'm sorry if this is an over simplification but your post reads like "I want more American units".  What about diversity? You seem to assume people are making stuff for you to play with and that perhaps a bit selfish and unrealistic.  Most people make addons for themselves first and the community second.  I know I do.

Frankly I'm more than a bit tired of playing as an American.  I am, like a lot of non american mod makers making stuff that represents my own country's equipment for my own use.  I want something different than ACU and Strykers.  Not everyone wants to drive around with their nation’s flag plastered a US/generic vehicle.  They want their own nation’s vehicles and camo schemes.  Even now I still get 4 or 5 requests a month to make US kit, which we mostly reject.  Where perhaps we maybe different is that we do intend on making international versions of our addons where appropriate. But it does add to our workload and does drag out release dates.  To make generic addons may make it easier for you to play with and make missions you want to make but it defeats the object of making their own country’s kit for most people.

It takes time to make addons, and with ArmA it’s really not as easy as it was in OFP.  Most mods are thinking in terms of months if not longer, if you look at FFUR for OFP the only reason they can reissue version after version in such a short time is that they are leeching content from pre-existing community made addons. ArmA doesn’t have that resource.  Realistically we’ve only had the tools for a few months and people are still learning how to use the game engine so to expect addons to start pouring out now is ridiculous.

I’d suggest you be more patient, or if you cant be ask people that are making addons you are interested in to make a version for you or ask permission to convert them once they are released.

[SlipperyJim 0]

In short, if a mod maker does not comform to your nationalistic demands, then, tough luck.

It is a shame that people take such a view instead of thinking about how could their work also fit into the original existing Arma design.

Release a Huey addon for instance with Greek markings and release a Huey with American markings and see which one gets used more by map makers. I am not saying that the Americans are more interesting but it fits in better with all the rest of the existing original weapons and vehicles in Arma.

No need for anyone to get defensive here, lol. I am Canadian and our country is certainly not represented by game developers either.

I wish there was a way to change the title of this thread. When I made the thread I modified the title twice and didn't notice how badly I mangled it until after I posted. I wanted it to read "Are Mods For Different Countries A Bad Idea?"

[arigram 0]

In short, if a mod maker does not comform to your nationalistic demands, then, tough luck.

It is a shame that people take such a view instead of thinking about how could their work also fit into the original existing Arma design.

Release a Huey addon for instance with Greek markings and release a Huey with American markings and see which one gets used more by map makers. I am not saying that the Americans are more interesting but it fits in better with all the rest of the existing original weapons and vehicles in Arma.

No need for anyone to get defensive here, lol.

I wish there was a way to change the title of this thread. When I made the thread I modified the title twice and didn't notice how badly I mangled it until after I posted. I wanted it to read "Are Mods For Different Countries A Bad Idea?"

Maybe if you didn't ask for units from a specific country while at the same time rejecting immediately all other ethnicities, then it wouldn't read as "I am a American, I want only American units".

As it stands, I agree with RockofSL.

I personally don't care if I am playing with Chinese, German, Finnish, Nigerian or Argentinian units, but there is far more content for the US Army than anything else which makes asking for more a bit of greedy.

For example, do you think anyone but US citizens care about the dozen or so versions of US troop uniforms? Plus, I rarely get to play a mission with additional content, let alone that specific.

Similarly, do you think that national clans and mod makers play missions with US troops in them? For example, HAC-HWM doesn't.

Lastly, if all content was converted to please Americans, they wouldn't want to try out content from other countries.

After all, you can very well make US-based missions with the present content.

And if I am not mistaken, there is a Vietnam mod in progress as there are other US-specific mod teams.

I find that the present situation, of different nationalities making their own armies, fits better an international model and they tend to be more focused and productive.

[sparky 0]

Rockofsl, i think you set an interesting variable there..

"Frankly I'm more than a bit tired of playing as an American. I am, like a lot of non american mod makers making stuff that represents my own country's equipment for my own use. I want something different than ACU and Strykers."

Well to tell you the truth me too, i'm sick of playing the "good" American soldier in any game. So let's see it from an other perspective.

Isn't it strange that since ofp there were mod -groups that were country depended. Examples (BWMmod, CSLA,FDF,ONS,Turkish Mod etc.etc..) and why is that in particularly this game??

Well the answer is simple. Because for all of us that we are not US or Russian (OFP) for 1st time we had the chance to create our country Army in a serious game (modding capabilities).

Abs, set also an other interesting variable....

"Look at OFP and FDF. Who didn't play that mod? "

Almost the majority of the community had for OFP BWM addons, FDF etc etc... was the majority German or Finnish??? well i don't think so..

Then what?? simply it was quality addons. (The same goes for ArmA)

For me things are simple. If you make your addons with high quality people will appreciate it in the end and use them..

Now let's set an other variable. Why is Greek, German,Turkish or whatever Army not fitted in ArmA??? Isn't so hard to create a mission with that armies as a peace keeping force or as an alias with an other side already presented in game.

[SlipperyJim 0]

Okay, I get it already. You are proud of your country's military. Can we stop waving the flags for a second, lol.

You are of course completely free to make any mod you want. No one is suggesting otherwise, lol.

[fasad 1]

I'd love to see some more generic SLA/RACs type units, simply because they seem more plausible when used on a small, fictitious island setting. A conflict involving one large super-power on a small island is possible, while two seems very unlikely (OFP did very well to create such a scenario).

Generic sides also allow greater creative freedom for mission makers.

[arigram 0]

Okay, I get it already. You are proud of your country's military. Can we stop waving the flags for a second, lol.

You are of course completely free to make any mod you want. No one is suggesting otherwise, lol.

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't you start the flag waving yourself by creating this thread?

After all, you complained that the mods are of different countries other than the US and that you wanted the content to please you and your countrymates.

Because as it is, mods for different countries make for an international ArmA and not focusing only on the US just because the game ships with them.

Would you complain if the Huey for example was released only for the RACS?

[SlipperyJim 0]

I'd love to see some more generic SLA/RACs type units

Careful now, those are dangerous thoughts. This crowd will get angry lol.

I totally agree. More stuff that fits into the Arma theme.

Quote[/b] ]After all, you complained that the mods are of different countries other than the US and that you wanted the content to please you and your countrymates.

How many times do I have to type that I am Canadian?! This is not about Americans but about the addons/mods fitting with the existing original Arma vehicles and weapons.

Some people really need to stop being defensive and/or anti-American for a second and read what I am actually saying. Go ahead and release your Greek Huey or your Chinese Dog Sled or your Turkish Golf Cart. Be proud of your work. At the same time you might want to think about reskining the mod/addon so it fits in with Arma's storyline/theme and so your hard work is seen by a maximum audience.

Sheesh!

[mr_centipede 31]

sometimes its just the way you said it... and you to being defensive and sarcastic like that doesnt help.

fasad's way of saying was much more simpler and direct. easily understood.

the way you said from first post was more like dont do this.. do this instead kind of thing.

rocko had a point. modmaker made their mod to please themselves first, then the community second.

and yes, a generic model/texture not representing any country is good. that way you slap any countries camo/flag by yourselves. if you dont know how to do it yourself, you can ask, or learn it. or wait for someone else to do it. i for one is too lazy to learn 3d modelling. so i just retexture. when i see an addon that could fit my country's army, i just retexture them for personal use. if i decided to release it, then permission will be requested.

[abs 2]

I don't think he was being disrespectful at all. Maybe people just read with different tones on the Internet, and the folks who were offended were having a bad day.

Abs

[sparky 0]

hmmmmm...

I think i saw and an other interesting variable set here..

The issue of current ArmA scene... Maybe you don't know it, but one of the things that didn't make ArmA a success game like OFP, was the fiction Armies and StoryLine go back in OFP, and remember the story. Yes the place was fictional and that was the clever trick, but all the other things were real.

I can't get out of mind a thing that someone said in this forums and i thought it really interesting...

"Who gives a f**k about Sahrani". This is all about, it wasn't the bugs. For me it was the thing that Everything Is Fiction, and when you talk about a Tactical FPS shooter, that wants to call it Military Combat Simulator (or at least he's small brother) There are is no room for fiction......

For me all the work that is done by mod groups and which is Country Specific is really an advantage that ArmA lucks right now.

[Tankbuster 1733]

I'm sorry if this is an over simplification but your post reads like "I want more American units". What about diversity? You seem to assume people are making stuff for you to play with and that perhaps a bit selfish and unrealistic. Most people make addons for themselves first and the community second. I know I do.

I can see his point to an extent. I'm lucky; I'm British and I've got a fine bunch of chaps making good addons. He's looking rather enviously at all the fantastic kit we have coming bearing RAF roundels and UJ flags.

Of course you do it for yourself. Human's aren't naturally altruistic. I've got into making stuff missions because I find it a challenge, especially working with half czech, half english terms. If someone else gets a kick out if it, well that's all the better.

On the other hand, Slippery is complaining about something that was always going to happen. Of course, some idiot will pipe up and say "make the addon yourself" and link them to the biki, which is as useful as a chocolate teapot.

I see dozens of slightly ropey retextured infantry out there. Already, one can have much of the worlds' soldiers holding Armalites in the game. For example, the Malaysian infantry (picked at random) is of no interest to me. Likewise the Serbian stuff, unless I wanted to revisit the civil genocide they practiced in the '90. But it adds to the whole of the game and enriches it. Long may they continue.

[arigram 0]

Some people really need to stop being defensive and/or anti-American for a second and read what I am actually saying. Go ahead and release your Greek Huey or your Chinese Dog Sled or your Turkish Golf Cart. Be proud of your work. At the same time you might want to think about reskining the mod/addon so it fits in with Arma's storyline/theme and so your hard work is seen by a maximum audience.

Nobody's being anti-american, here. The whole idea here is diversity and internationality. That is the whole point of creating new content. As far as "maximum audience" is concerned, as people have mentioned, mods are created for their creators amusement first. They are not sold, so there is no profit in being seeing by the "maximum audience" apart from maybe a bit of fame which might come anyway if the content is good enough. As it was for example with FDF and the Turkish Mod.

If someone is being offensive and defensive at the same time it is you with your ironic comments.

The Huey is being made with a RACS skin. Pleased?

Doesn't that fit the ArmA story?

Can't you make missions with the present content?

Somehow I feel the whole point of starting the thread is that said helicopter as I have hard time imagining a north american complaining for not having Leopards or Eurofighters with RACS skins as the modded russian equipment is being made with SLA colors.

So, "not fitting the ArmA storyline" is kind of a moot point.