N00b questions, calling out enemies & squad manage

[horrgakx 1]

Guys, whenever one of my squad sees an enemy he calls it out.  I've spotted enemies myself but never been able to tell anyone about it.  Is it possible?

Also I've been doing all the leg-work myself; scouting, attacking, etc. even when I've got a squad of 8 soldiers.  I just can't get them to stay alive most of the time, they'll stand up in fire-fights, run round a corner into the enemy, get stuck in trees... generally perform very poorly indeed.  Even when in a tank they'll take absolutely ages to drive anywhere or open fire on a target. And in a helicopter they will let the Shilka attack before anything is done about it. I just do it all myself.

Is there some sort of instructional video or something that shows you how to effectively manage your squad???

Thanks.

[mr_centipede 31]

hi... you call out enemies by aim at them and right click on them. this will made your squad mates aware of that target.

as for commanding, i really dont have any suggestions. just that as a commander, you should be commanding, not fighting. let the ai fight for you. how to do it effectively needs training and experience. hence why do you think officer train longer than regular grunt?

fire up the editor and create some kind of scenario for you to practice

[Ezekiel 0]

Im sure I've seen these questions answered before but Ill give it a shot....

You basically need to practice using some of the more advanced orders for your troops - telling them to stay low, take cover, flank left etc are all good ways of getting them to perform. The enemy AI already uses such techniques themselves, its important to remember that they cant do anything that you cant..

To call out an enemy HOLD RMB down over them (by default).

Sadly there's no way that I know of to make choppers or tanks target more effectively without using extra scripting, but I may be wrong.

[horrgakx 1]

Guys, the right mouse button pulls up the sights on the weapon so if I press it over an enemy it just zooms to scope or iron sights...

[CarlGustaffa 4]

I tend to "command" like this: If I see an enemy coming towards us while we are holding position, I right click on him to call him out. Then I assign a soldier to target him. This soldier might be in hold fire mode (all usually are until I cancel it). I keep aim on this approaching enemy unit, and only if I see him raise his weapon for a shot and none of my guys are shooting, will I open fire at him.

As a squad commander, your rank is usually between corporal and lieutenant (sergeant being most typical, but can vary for other game specific reasons). With a high rank, your "rating" increases unless the mission designer has removed some "rating points" from the beginning. This "rating" adds to the desire for the AI to target *you*. And shooting AI doesn't help as this also increases your "rating". This is also a reminder to let the AI fight for you on your command, do not shoot too much yourself, although it can be VERY hard at times to restrain yourself when stupid teammates doesn't do what they're told.

Squads can be messy to deal with. Sometimes you're on your own. Sometimes in a small 4-5 guy black ops team. Sometimes you're part of the typical 9-man squad, usually divided into two fireteams or two fireteams and a backteam (specialists such as AT and medic/sniper). If in a Stryker you might have 11 guys, and up to 13 guys to control if you're lucky enough to have an M113 (I prefer this over the Stryker since it's easier to "command" from the gunners position).

Controlling all these guys would have been a nightmare if you don't assign them into teams. If I design a mission, I try to keep squad organized and grouped in such a fashion that red team is on my right and green team is on my left (in a wegde/line/vee formation). That is, all even numbers on my right and all odd numbers on my left. If I'm a sergeant and my team leaders are corporals, these higher ranking units will be placed closest to the squad leader. I think in real life, they will be positioned between automatic riflemen and grenadier to assign them targets, but I think we can live with this limitation. Anyway, this means that you have team leaders assigned to F2 (red) and F3 (green). If you prefer to have specialists (blue team) instead of additional riflemen assigned to fireteams, you can have these two on F4 and F5 (blue).

And here comes the point of it all: You can issue commands to whole teams by holding the shift command while selecting the unit, i.e. Shift F2 for red team, Shift F3 for green team, and Shift F4 for blue team. Then you can assign combatmodes to whole teams and issue go commands either from the view or even from the map! Beautiful Unfortunately, I'm having some problems ordering individuals and teams where to look; they instantly turn in some other direction sometimes.

[the unknown 0]

I suggest you simply put a group in the editor with you as the leader, then simply try out stuff and see what the ai does.

Once you know that you can use that knowlage to make decisions.

Dont forget there are some tools to help you with the commanding task, if you didnt switch of 3rd person you can use the tactical view to command your units around, also there are some extra options under the Commanding mode.

Look those up in your controles and see what key to use.

About the calling in enemys its called reveal target in your controle settings just look it up in game.

[Dallas 9]

The key command is called 'Reveal target', it's combined with 'zoom in' on your right mouse button per default. I always advice multiplayers to divide 'reveal target' and 'zoom in' to each their own key, because it can be bloody anoying to hear all those reposts, whenever a teammate uses his zoom key.

[The_Captain 0]

Quote[/b] ]And here comes the point of it all: You can issue commands to whole teams by holding the shift command while selecting the unit, i.e. Shift F2 for red team, Shift F3 for green team, and Shift F4 for blue team.

I didn't know this. All this time I thought it was bloody difficult to select a full team without using the spacebar command mode. Thanks!

[sprite 0]

im OK with most of this stuff, but when my team call "where are you" how can I reply like the AI does with my co-ords?

[horrgakx 1]

I might be able to answer this - one easy way is this; Say your number 3 asks where you are, just select him with F3 and point to the ground near you, click the mouse, and this tells him to move to you.

Not sure if its the correct way, but it works.

[Sevan 0]

I never understood why there wasn't a command to tell the AI on away, your exact position, the same way an AI commander could.

[kylroy 0]

I never understood why there wasn't a command to tell the AI on away, your exact position, the same way an AI commander could.

exactly. if you order him next to you, you need a 2nd command to return him into formation. it should work with one single command.

[frederf 0]

The "where are you?" AI thing is mostly a big clue that you, as a commander screwed up and not actually a request for any information.

AI in the "return to formation" state believe it is their place by your side. It's not "the dumb AI" when you get in a HMMWV and hit the gas leaving them in the dust, but rather you asking the impossible from them. If you want the AI with you, don't move faster than they can go and make sure they all keep up. Otherwise give them orders to move apart from you and they'll never complain.

What would be nice is a "Move here and rejoin" command. This would direct a stray unit to move to a certain location and rejoin with your formation once it could. The game has a "Wait for me" option which I think does the "Stop and rejoin when I come to you" but very few people use it AFAIK.

I notice a lot of people are trying to operate without the commanding mode when leading. My advice is to embrace it rather than trying to fight it. Definitely use the color groups alot and give very simple orders.

Say if I have 8 solders, I would break them up into 4 2-man color teams. Entering a town I'd set all their stances and such properly and then move the four groups and give them watch directions as I bounded through town. Only 2 groups moving at once max and under the cover of the other groups the best I could.

One mistake is asking too much too fast of the AI. Taking a city block might take a whole day in real life. Go slow.

Try things like setting 1/2 of your group to "Advance" which places them 50m ahead of you and 1/2 of your group to "Stay Back" with their weapons on hold fire. Congrats you've just made traveling overwatch. When the front guys come under fire tell 'em to get down and stay put. Have the rears start to flank immediately and go ahead and lead them.

Whenever you have an AI AT-gunner engage a tank, always set his targeting to "hold fire" and then wait for him to give you the "ready to fire." Make sure he also isn't in "Engage" mode which will cause him to run up and kiss the tank. You'll get a lot more success with the AI AT-gunners.

In fact Hold Fire should be the NORMAL mode for your soldiers when patrolling. Ambushes are critical to having a good ratio of enemy to friendly dead. Always avoid the fair fight! Only in situations where a soldier is covering and stealth is not needed should you allow free fire.

[The_Captain 0]

Frederf, those points are very useful. I also make heavy use of hold fire, assigning targets, and overall slow movement. It's very satisfying when all of your AI are ready to fire, and you tell them to open up on an unsuspecting enemy. Also, retreating or displacing immediately after such an ambush can be the difference between losing one soldier and losing the whole squad!

A few other quirks that help me when managing my AI:

Stay Back is a very useful command for getting your AI to retreat when under fire (they move 50m behind you, a la advance, but reverse), especially if the point 50m behind you is behind a ridge or other cover. This is much more effective than running backwards and expecting them to follow you. Plus, you can give your retreating AI cover fire!

Stealth + Stand Up is an effective way of getting AI to move tactically in formation without going crazy, especially with a column (compact) formation and the hold fire engage mode. I find this combination more useful than simple danger or aware, especially in urban areas. When I want them to keep low, I tell them so. I use this in urban areas to great effect.

Return to formation: Using this command seems to reset the formation direction to the direction you're facing/traveling, which can be a lifesaver for getting your AI formation to actually face in the direction you want them to (IE, along a ridge). it's aggravating when you're on top of a ridge, but your formation is misdirected, with half behind the ridge and half in plain view...

Teamswitch: Sometimes teamswitching into your soldiers is one of the only solutions to commanding AI in a tight situation. I have a custom MP teamswitch script that overrides the Arma teamswitch keys (Y and U default), and lets me switch into any of my squad members instantly (using selectplayer), while staying the group leader. This is insanely useful for managing stubborn AI for the few seconds they need to target the proper enemy, quickly return to formation, shoot a tank without dying, or move into a dangerous area. Though you can fairly quickly give commands to the AI to shoot a specific target or move to a location, sometimes it helps to be able to perform the exact operation yourself... The Ai do what you tell them, not necessarily what you want!

Also, taking control of my soldiers and doing such actions myself, I find I often have just as much trouble succeeding as the AI does. I think we give them a bad rap because we expect them to perform miracles while under fire, while watching them get mercilessly cut down, but to be fair, it's still quite hard to take control and get what you want done without dying...

[mr_centipede 31]

That is a very good point frederf... and you to captain. maybe you guys should write a whole FM for future to be squad commander. setup a training mission maybe... bis squad leader training mission is kinda tip of the iceberg... officers should have a thorough training to keep their men alive

[frederf 0]

I just ran a few simulations. I'm having trouble with one fire team conducting a flank or a fall back as they want to stand still and fight when they are in the presence of enemy.

The way the AI move is rather retarded as well. They walk around arms "at the ready" too much. If I was given to code the movement states I'd do (stances assume "keep low" as in, up to the AI):

Danger: Sprint everywhere, formation adherence tolerance is very low. When at a halt drop to knee after 3 seconds, prone after 7. Weapons always ready when stopped. Heavy on the trigger.

This should be your combat formation when in contact and seconds matter. Movement should be completed decisively and quickly without delays to engage while moving except in close combat circumstances.

Aware: Walk/Run everywhere, formation adherence medium. When at a halt drop to a knee after 10 seconds, prone after 30. Weapons ready only when stopped and targeting. Medium on the trigger.

This should be your movement to contact / patrolling formation. Ground should be covered quickly but in an organized way. Smart-stance should be to lower gradually when halted.

Safe: Walk/Run everywhere, formation adherence high. When at a halt disperse slightly and random stand/sit after 30 seconds. Weapons always at port arms until firing.

This should be the non-tactical traveling formation. Formation is adhered to the most strict for easy control. Soldiers tend to use walk more than run.

Stealth: Move slow and with weapons at the ready. At a halt they assume a low stance nearly immediately. Prone movement is done for short distances, crouched and standing for longer movements.

The stealth mode never really caught on with me. I figure this would make a decent "move at the ready" mode.

==========

The command to "STOP" should be replaced with the command "Hold" and "Freeze" where soldiers seek nearby cover and conform to the terrain when told to Hold.

Also there should be a "Get Firing Positions" command that makes all soldiers in a color-group move toward a soldier's target (using the ENGAGE routine, freezing once they have LOS) until they too can hit it. Say "Group Blue" had 2, 3, 4, and 5. If you told "2, target that RPG gunner" and "Blue, get firing positions" then 3, 4, and 5 would move if necessary such that they could also hit #2's target. Would prevent a lot of times when you tell 10 soldiers to open fire but only 1 can hit it and it makes a really weak and suicidal attack.

===========

Finally a SET RALLY POINT / BREAK CONTACT-FALL BACK TO RALLY set of commands would do wonders for survivability. The current "Disengage" command simply tells a soldier to stop engaging and return to formation and it hasn't worked in my memory at that.

Real life leaders do this in the field. "Hey guys, if all of this goes pear-shaped and I say fall back, we'll meet here."

[Sevan 0]

These are all very interesting suggestions for improving the command system, that hasn't changed since OPF. I hope BIS takes this approach in reworking the control system for ArmA2. The commands should be based on what real world group leaders would use. I really like the idea of setting a fall back point.

the Command system is definetaly one area needs to be redone.

[Wolfrug 0]

As a general note: try the "find cover" command on your AI sometime.

Do NOT do it on a whole bunch of units simultaneously: then only the highest ranking member of the new "formation" takes cover, the rest remain in formation around him. Use it on singular units one at a time.

As far as I can tell, what they will do then is run to the closest "cover" (be it a bush or a rock or a tree) and take whatever stance their combat mode tells them to. I believe they also check the way you were looking at the time of giving them the order, and assume the enemy is at your 12 o'clock, and hide accordingly.

This is, of course, fairly useless in an urban engagement, but out in the fields (if you have time to go through each of your soldiers and give them individual "hide!" orders) it does do a pretty good job of dispersing your forces.

Just a hint!

Regards,

Wolfrug

[horrgakx 1]

> The "where are you?" AI thing is mostly a big clue that you, as a commander screwed up ...

> you asking the impossible from them

Sorry, but there are plenty of examples where the AI DOES screw up, such as simply getting stuck in trees. Sometimes they will be ordered to move, tell you they're on the way, then just say "Ready" and stand there. Extremely annoying.

About Teamswitch - I didn't know you could 'jump into' any of the other men in your squad...?! Thats useful. I've only been playing it since Operation Flashpoint

> Stealth + Stand Up is an effective way of getting AI to move tactically in formation ...

> When I want them to keep low, I tell them so. I use this in urban areas to great effect

I find the interface REALLY clunky, and by the time I've issued commands half my squad is already dead. Hence, due to these AI issue and clunky interface I like to do things myself and if I get killed I just reload. Sad, I know, and not realistic, but its a means to an end.

[The_Captain 0]

Frederf, i've been looking at your suggestions, and I wonder if that can't be done with FSM scripts that run on each soldier. I think the basic "between contact" type of actions you described could be run before arma's native FSM scripts take over (when the bullets start flying, the soldiers ignore custom FSM scripts and start behaving on their own...). It would be quite nice to simply give the command for the squad to assume one of the above postures without having to mix and match a dozen or so different arma commands, one after the other, while also trying to fire back at the enemy... "ALL... DANGER.. ALL.. OPEN FIRE.. ALL.. STEALTH.. ALL.. STAY BACK.. ALL.. REPORT STATUS...OH NO.. 2 IS DOWN..." :-/

I think the need to apply a few different commands all at once is where the command system is difficult. Just to get my soldiers to assume stealth, stand up, column compact, and hold fire I need to memorize a bunch of number commands and hit them all quickly in order, when it would be nice to use a one or two keypress system to give the same suite of commands... to simply hold spacebar and hit Q or W for an appropriate squad-handsignal, like frederf's DANGER or AWARE, allowing the AI script to take over basic control of the AI... :-/

Also, as a squad leader, I would prefer to only manage individual vehicles or fireteams rather than having to manage all the individual soldiers in my group. Even though leaving team decisions up to the AI is a bit risky, it would seem more streamlined to issue orders to slightly larger units. Interestingly enough, my AI management problems start to decline when I'm only leading a fireteam of 4 soldiers...

(ot) Maybe someone could replace Arma's command system with something like the following... Join units in a player's squad to their own group (disabling arma's command system), place a display at the bottom of the screen to show squad member status, and grab commands via keypresses and screen intersection, running scripts directly on squad members... I toyed with modifying general barron's handsignal script to do this in OFP, but without commands to find out what the player's view was intersecting with, or a way to reliably detect keypresses, it wasn't very successful. However, the game is MUCH more atmospheric without the default command mode, having a minimal hud, no command menu, and no constant radio messages...(/ot)

Also, the teamswitch is a script I wrote simply to get around these AI problems: when they get stuck or I need my AT guy to kill a tank, I just inhabit them for a few seconds instead of waiting while they get themselves killed (it's actually a byproduct of the group respawn script for sp/mp which uses the same body switching code..).

[frederf 0]

Huh? Sorry I kind of zoned out and went into rantificate mode. The source of my problems with (and generally the ineptness of command system) is three fold:

1. BI made up their own method of command off the top of their heads instead of using an existing professional military to model (US Army being my favorite / most familiar).

2. BI did not attempt tiered command levels reasonably and are thus going back to 5-man groups for all their single player content in ArmA-II since 1 chief and 20 indians doesn't work.

3. Individual AI do not prioritize actions or make the right decisions too often.

P.S. more Space+<X> shortcut keys for leader commands would help streamline the process. What would help is a vastly better decision making model that would make soldiers stand up while flanking automatically instead of staying prone for example.

[The_Captain 0]

frederf: It's late and I've been rambling so forgive me if I've been talking a bit of nonsense. Basically, you're spot on with those concerns, and I'm reviving my old hack of General barron's command system to see what I can do in arma.

Basically, in his system for ofp, there was no ofp command system, as all Ai in your command were in separate groups. You gave handsignals to your squad (via his system), which were relayed through the fireteam leaders to the fireteam members. In my personal hack, you pressed V to toggle command mode, and pressed q,w,e,a,s,d,z,x,c to give a command like Advance, open/hold fire, "rally on me" etc. (In GenB's original system, you used the ofp radio to give these hand signals.. slow, but it worked). The AI were put under control of scripts where they could be more efficiently managed, and you gave orders to either your whole squad or one of the three USMC fireteams. Handsignals Link

Something along these lines is what I'm going to try and throw together, but I'm now derailing the topic from actual ways to make Arma Ai do what one wants...

I think "one chief and 20 indians", as well as Ai acting idiotic unless under micromanaged control, and way too many possible commands to give, contribute make commanding a pain. Having basic commands that a squad leader gives to his fireteams, or a team leader gives to his teammates, would be efficient and much easier to manage while in combat.

[frederf 0]

Best of luck with your command system.

Commanding AI won't truly be reasonable until a squad is able to get a move order from a platoon leader, the squad leader is able to interpret this order and transform it into orders for his two fire teams, the fire team leaders are able to interpret the SL's orders and transform it into order for his two buddy pairs, and the buddy pair "leader" can direct himself and his underling.

All with AI and all without extra human intervention.

[mr_centipede 31]

i put up a test mission, about a platoon size unit commanded by me, about 24 soldiers + 1pltn leader (me) so 25 men all. up against a squad of 9 men opfor. using 2nd suppression and true range engagement mod, i can say i manage to handle my troops quite well. i split them into 3 color teams simulating 3 squads. number 2-9 is first squad (center) then the odd number units will be on my left and the even numbered units on my right. i use the commanding mode quite alot... and it seems i can shift <click> a unit and it will select the whole color team that unit was assigned to. quite well made i say. use flank right/left alot. advance and wait for me. i must say i had much fun. though not quite fun when assigning teams.

what i did i assign the center squad first, then told them to advance and gives u clear view on left and right squad. so i can make a box around the squad and assign them color team. kinda like rts really. then its good to go

then again this test is in ideal situation, for familiarization only. in true battle situation, i guess it can get pretty hectic, and may i say click fest?

i'll try made up a bigger battle, and test again. the simple test against 1 squad i didnt suffer any casualties. quite a treat. hehe

[mr_centipede 31]

made up another test between everon and baja valor. my platoon starts just below the ridge on everon, attempting to capture baja valor. supported by 3m1a1 and 1 mk19 stryker. opfor is around 2 platoons i guess. i can say it got pretty hectic and i end up just being a 'driver' to my platoon and let the ai fight it out. they can take care of themselves much better that way.

some frustrations also present. primarily its hard to keep them in formation. i used line formation and they suppose to watch west and after weaving left and right they form up line watching north or north west. maybe its because suppression script.

so there u have it.. i lost 5 guys. i must say i chickened out a bit and let the tanks clear out most of the opfor, then i came in mopping out the towns. and i never fired a shot.

question: is there an easier way to order your men to target something? clicking on enemy unit will make them engage the enemy. i thought in ofp u right click to order your men to target instead of rushing out engaging the enemy

btw, is there any tute or guide for commander out there? could make a training course out of it. bis built in squad leader training is hardly enough to make u proficient in handling these clone troopers. to be a good leader, u must know your soldiers. their strength and weaknesses. hehe