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armyclonk

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According to him all abortions are inhumane. He's stuck in old traditions. It's like forcing all women to wear burkhas or disallowing them to work or study.

If you work and cooperate with a foreign power against your own country you're a spy. That was why he was imprisoned and not other members of the opposition. To my knowledge CIA is responsible for overseas operations. He's affilated to it.

Usually spies are called prisoners of conscience as powers they are cooperating with never admit espionage. That's a golden rule in diplomacy.

Quote[/b] ]You got a warped view on the Soviet Union. Freedom and the Soviet Union are damn near mutually exclusive. If the Soviet Union existed today, the "ordinary" people would be banned from using the internet.

That's what you see in all western movies like Top Gun. Evil soviets with black clothes that want to rule the world and oppress because it's in their atheist minds. If you ask Russians (non middle-class) they'll tell you something different. And most Russians prefer the Soviet Union (15 years after the dissolution still). The USSR had its own internet domain .su. In Cuba people are free to browse the web. Why wouldn't they be allowed to that in the USSR?

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That's what you see in all western movies like Top Gun. Evil soviets with black clothes that want to rule the world and oppress because it's in their atheist minds. If you ask Russians (non middle-class) they'll tell you something different. And most Russians prefer the Soviet Union (15 years after the dissolution still). The USSR had its own internet domain .su. In Cuba people are free to browse the web. Why wouldn't they be allowed to that in the USSR?

How do you know people in Cuba are free to browse the web? And that that web is not filtered? And how many people? 10? 20? It's worse than in China, but they can't control it in China.

So what if the USSR had it's own domain? So does North Korea. And we all know how advanced North Korea really is.

You have a seriously skewed view of things. You have not been under those systems so you can't call them good. If you opened your eyes you would see there's a reason why people tried in every way to get out of the Soviet Union and why people are trying to run away from Cuba.

And no, no socialist led country has ever treated it's citizens well and every capitalist country is far better off considering the treatment of their citizens and basic human rights. Like the freedom of speech. The one you have right now, by browsing the forum and posting here. Now imagine having that taken away, along with your computer and getting thrown into jail.

Besides, if you like Cuba so much why don't you move there? The way you are talking right now suggest that you are from a capitalist state and I think it'd do you good to see Cuba and see your dreams crumble.

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According to him all abortions are inhumane. He's stuck in old traditions. It's like forcing all women to wear burkhas or disallowing them to work or study.

Thanks for the straw man argument. I don't care that he is against abortions.

If you work and cooperate with a foreign power against your own country you're a spy. That was why he was imprisoned and not other members of the opposition. To my knowledge CIA is responsible for overseas operations. He's affilated to it.

He was already imprisoned before for three years. The Cubans were just looking for an accuse to lock him up more. Again, the Cubans don't have proof he was working for the CIA.

Usually spies are called prisoners of conscience as powers they are cooperating with never admit espionage. That's a golden rule in diplomacy.

Amnesty International is not run by the United States government. It is an independent organization.

The USSR had its own internet domain .su. In Cuba people are free to browse the web. Why wouldn't they be allowed to that in the USSR?

http://www.iana.org/root-whois/su.htm

Quote[/b] ]

Record created - 19-September-1990

The Soviet Union was going down the tubes by then and the internet in 1990 was different than the internet of 2007 (e.g., no blogs). You are a fool to think the Soviet Union wouldn't had censored the Internet or banned its usage. People used to magically disappear from pictures.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3425425.stm

Quote[/b] ]

A new law coming into force on Saturday makes it impossible for many Cubans to dial up the internet from their home telephone lines.

The move has been criticised by the human rights group Amnesty International.

Cuba says that, given its limited resources, it needs to ensure that the internet is primarily used for the social good.

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=19335

Quote[/b] ]

Going online in Cuba - Internet under surveillance

Reporters Without Borders today publishes a report entitled "Going online in Cuba - Internet under surveillance" with the results of tests carried out on the island in August. It includes a survey of the Internet control methods used by the authorities and the personal account of a French journalist who spent several weeks there this summer.

"With less than 2 per cent of the population online, Cuba is one of the world’s most backward countries as regards Internet usage. The worst off by far in Latin America and with a thirteenth of Costa Rica’s usage, it is down there with Uganda or Sri Lanka. This is quite surprising in a country that boasts one of the highest levels of education in the world. The authorities blame this disastrous situation on the US trade embargo, which supposedly prevents them from getting the equipment they need for Internet development. In particular, they say they are unable to use underwater fibre optic cable to connect to the Internet outside Cuba and are therefore reduced to using costly and less effective satellite links.

This may indeed explain the slowness of the Cuban Internet and the endless lines outside Internet cafes. But in no way does it justify the system of control and surveillance that has been put in place by the authorities. In a country where the media are under the government’s thumb, preventing independent reports and information from circulating online has naturally become a priority.

An investigation carried out by Reporters Without Borders revealed that the Cuban government uses several mechanisms to ensure that the Internet is not used in a “counter-revolutionary†fashion. Firstly, the government has more or less banned private Internet connections. To visit websites or check their e-mail, Cubans have to use public access points such as Internet cafes, universities and “Youth computing centers†where it is easier to monitor their activity. Then, the Cuban police has installed software on all computers in Internet cafes and big hotels that triggers an alert message when “subversive†key-words are noticed.

The regime also ensures that there is no Internet access for its political opponents and independent journalists, for whom reaching news media abroad is an ordeal. The government also counts on self-censorship. In Cuba, you can get a 20-year prison sentence for writing a few “counter-revolutionary†articles for foreign websites, and a five-year one just for connecting with the Internet in an illegal manner. Few people dare to defy the state censorship and take such a risk."

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you're talking to an anachronism, i personally would have given up by this point.

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"US Blocks Internet in Cuba"

http://www.cubavsbloqueo.cu/Default.aspx?tabid=1499

But they found a solution to make internet faster by linking it to Venezuela:

http://www.radiohc.cu/ingles....ero.htm

"Fiber optic connection would facilitate cooperation"

http://www.granma.cu/ingles/2007/febrero/vier16/08telecon.html

Here you can see how much "propaganda" there is in the main cuban newspaper:

http://www.granma.cu/ingles/index.html

From a guy on a travel site that visited Cuba a while ago:

"Internet access is not banned. The Cuban Government has, in fact, established public facilities in all major cities and towns to encourage particularly young people to become proficient in the use of computers - (and Fidel, himself, is an internet addict and enthusiast). Tourists who want to assist this process might like to consider leaving behind a laptop for these places - they would get good use! (and see earlier posting about accessing the internet, using a laptop, from your casa) "

Every school has internet. And as far as I know there's no blocking apart from that of pornographic, terrorist and xenophobic sites.

Quote[/b] ]And we all know how advanced North Korea really is.

Yeah, and what about capitalist Bangladesh?

Quote[/b] ]You have not been under those systems so you can't call them good.

You have not been under those systems so you can't call them bad.

Quote[/b] ]Besides, if you like Cuba so much why don't you move there? The way you are talking right now suggest that you are from a capitalist state and I think it'd do you good to see Cuba and see your dreams crumble.

Why should I move to Cuba? I work for the liberation of the country where I live. I can't liberate it from Mars.

Quote[/b] ]Again, the Cubans don't have proof he was working for the CIA.

Cubans have proof that he was working together with the American Interests Bureau in Cuba. He's thus cooperating with a foreign power against Cuba.

Amnesty is only concerned with individuals. If Hitler would be imprisoned they would call him a prisoner of conscience (if they were doing things consistently) and not care whether he would make life worse for lots of people while outside jail.

But if you're interested, the US which you don't critizise also imprisons people who work for cuba. Five cuban anti-terrorist specialists were sentenced to prison by US authorities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Five

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki....ca#Cuba

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"Proving" the freedom Cubans enjoy on the internet by linking to exclusively Cuban sites, you're funny! rofl.gif

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"Proving" the freedom Cubans enjoy on the internet by linking to exclusively Cuban sites, you're funny! rofl.gif

Exactly what I was going to say.

Quote[/b] ]Yeah, and what about capitalist Bangladesh?

Both third world countries, one is better off. Guess which one?

Quote[/b] ]You have not been under those systems so you can't call them bad.

Yes. Yes I can. I think the end of the cold war, the endless people trying to run from the east to the west and their testimonies justify me calling it bad. I might not have expirenced it, but I can call it bad. And millions of others can too.

Quote[/b] ]Why should I move to Cuba? I work for the liberation of the country where I live. I can't liberate it from Mars.

To see what country and fabulous system you are defending.

Liberation...from what? The slavery of capitalism? So you can push them into the slavery of socialism. RIGHT! Like it's better. A factory worker under capitalism is still a factory worker under socialism, the only difference is that under socialism he couldn't say a damn thing against his goverment and had a way lower standard of life.

There's a problem with your plan to liberate people: they aren't as naive as you seem to be.

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Quote[/b] ]"Proving" the freedom Cubans enjoy on the internet by linking to exclusively Cuban sites, you're funny!

"Proving" the censorship Cubans enjoy on the internet by linking to exclusively non-Cuban sites, you're funny!

Yea let's link to BBC and other liberal media and listen to them instead of a homepage of cuban citizen-internet-activists. Let's listen to what big business says about income they could've got if Cuba was free market like Dubai.

Quote[/b] ]Both third world countries, one is better off. Guess which one?

North Korea is a lot better of than Bangladesh.

Quote[/b] ]Yes. Yes I can. I think the end of the cold war, the endless people trying to run from the east to the west and their testimonies justify me calling it bad. I might not have expirenced it, but I can call it bad. And millions of others can too.

Yes. Yes I can. A lot more people think it was better than before. Of course those who move don't think it was good. But the majority stayed and about 70% think the USSR was better for instance.

Quote[/b] ]To see what country and fabulous system you are defending.

Liberation...from what? The slavery of capitalism? So you can push them into the slavery of socialism. RIGHT! Like it's better. A factory worker under capitalism is still a factory worker under socialism, the only difference is that under socialism he couldn't say a damn thing against his goverment and had a way lower standard of life.

Why don't you move to Cuba to see what kind of system you're opposing? So Cuban factory workers have a lower standard of life than those in Haiti? Do Cuban workers have to work for an elite that owns, but doesn't work? If the working class owns all means of production, in what way can it oppress itself?

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Quote[/b] ]"Proving" the freedom Cubans enjoy on the internet by linking to exclusively Cuban sites, you're funny!

"Proving" the censorship Cubans enjoy on the internet by linking to exclusively non-Cuban sites, you're funny!

So the whole world is in a great conspiracy against the island paradise of Cuba? crazy_o.gif

What a disgrace, I'll never be able to trust any source in the world ever again except those based on Cuba sad_o.gif

Again, the last few pages sees you answering questions with questions (you're the one that has to prove your point since you claim Cuba is so great, not us) and linking to exclusively Cuban sources and Wikipedia (which everyone that registers can edit) to "prove" it. And you claim we only come up with one-sided sources rofl.gif

Of course the nice dictatorship will report the violations of human rights, and the mess it is making of the country, with the ability for their free citizens to comment on the unrestricted and unsupervised internet. I wouldn't be surprised if you're already living on Cuba, and working for the government in some kind of Ministry of Information. Everytime you claim Cuba is so great, and people who haven't lived there can't know what it's like, clearly indicating that you're either living there, or are just like the people you accuse of not knowing anything from first hand experience.

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North Korea is a lot better of than Bangladesh.

NK is far worse in respecting human rights and even providing something to live for. An estimated 2 million people died in the middle of the 90s because of the famine. The US, probably one of your mosted hated capitalist pig dog countries, was NKs biggest food donator in 1997. Well better off than Bangladesh eh? I'm not saying that Bangladesh is a dream country where everybody lives in a villa, but still better than NK I'd imagine.

Quote[/b] ]Yes. Yes I can. A lot more people think it was better than before. Of course those who move don't think it was good. But the majority stayed and about 70% think the USSR was better for instance.

Ask any Czech, Slovak, Hungarian or Pole and see what they think.

And can you give me any GOOD sources to prove that 70% theory of yours. If that's true, well then, serves to prove what a dodgy education can do to a nation.

Quote[/b] ]Why don't you move to Cuba to see what kind of system you're opposing? So Cuban factory workers have a lower standard of life than those in Haiti?

Why don't I move? Well because I don't want to. Because it's a worse place than where I am right now.

Haiti, the poorest country in the western hemisphere, good pick.

How about this: compare it to a country which actually has factories to begin with. Like Germany.

Quote[/b] ]Do Cuban workers have to work for an elite that owns, but doesn't work? If the working class owns all means of production, in what way can it oppress itself?

That owns but doesn't work? What? You think they just magically came to the top or what? Most of them had to work hard to get to the top. Anybody can, if they have the guts and brains to do it. The capitalists today aren't some evil bastards from Orwells 1984, but just greedy bastards.

The working class does a good job at oppressing itself as it is. There will always be greedy people that will want a little bit more for a little bit less. Now accept that fact and realise that socialism doesn't work because of human nature. It only works by force.

Quote[/b] ]Yea let's link to BBC and other liberal media and listen to them instead of a homepage of cuban citizen-internet-activists.

Yes, I'm much more inclined to believe the BBC than brainwashed people, like you.

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Quote[/b] ]So the whole world is in a great conspiracy against the island paradise of Cuba?

The whole capitalist world, yes. Capitalists and anti-capitalists don't help each other.

Quote[/b] ]Everytime you claim Cuba is so great, and people who haven't lived there can't know what it's like, clearly indicating that you're either living there, or are just like the people you accuse of not knowing anything from first hand experience.

Re-read the whole thread and you'll find that I've linked to cuban sites 4 times. The funny thing is that you're into wishful thinking when you don't accept the facts.

I'm not saying that people who don't live there can't know what it's like. It was some other guy here who claimed that.

Quote[/b] ]

NK is far worse in respecting human rights and even providing something to live for. An estimated 2 million people died in the middle of the 90s because of the famine. The US, probably one of your mosted hated capitalist pig dog countries, was NKs biggest food donator in 1997. Well better off than Bangladesh eh? I'm not saying that Bangladesh is a dream country where everybody lives in a villa, but still better than NK I'd imagine.

People die of famine in Bangladesh too. After the dissolution of the USSR the whole trading bloc in the socialist states collapsed. Comecon was dissolved. This hit north korea and cuba to name a few. However, since, the economies have improved very much. In Cuba they're completely back on track. North Korea has problems buying oil, without oil they can't run any mechanized agriculture, no tractors, no truck transports etc. That affects agricultural production. Esp if you see that North K. mostly is a country that consists of mountains. When the few farms are flooded there are even bigger problems.

Quote[/b] ]And can you give me any GOOD sources to prove that 70% theory of yours. If that's true, well then, serves to prove what a dodgy education can do to a nation.

I've already posted them a few times but you fail to read the topic.

http://www.upi.com/NewsTra....878

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls....reforms

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls....stroika

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls...._russia

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls...._russia

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls....yeltsin

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls....ourably

http://www.angus-reid.com/analysi....stroika

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls....c_event

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls....rezhnev

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls....rbachev

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls...._fondly

Why do people think Stalin, Lenin, Brezjnev are good guys while people dislike Gorbachev and Yeltsin? Russians are the ones who were "oppressed" by their regimes. Wouldn't they know better than you and liberal western media? How come people in the west think Yeltsin was good?

Maybe it shows what dodgy education we have here? What kind of media we have? You refuse to see the facts.

Quote[/b] ]How about this: compare it to a country which actually has factories to begin with. Like Germany.

Yea compare Germany to Cuba. Haha. Why not compare Liberia or Bangladesh with Cuba then? You got to see the conditions. Haiti has a lot of factories. But we don't have to pick Haiti, compare to any other country in South america and you'll find that Cuba has a higher standard of living and respect human rights to a much larger extent.

Quote[/b] ]That owns but doesn't work? What? You think they just magically came to the top or what? Most of them had to work hard to get to the top. Anybody can, if they have the guts and brains to do it. The capitalists today aren't some evil bastards from Orwells 1984, but just greedy bastards.

Hard work! Haha! And say it's like that, what does that justify that they exploit other people and earn money from their work? You don't get rich if you work alone, but if you make 1000 people work for you you get rich easily.

Quote[/b] ]Yes, I'm much more inclined to believe the BBC than brainwashed people, like you.

No media is unpartisan. Everything represents a certain class' interests. BBC is a partisan liberal propaganda company that represent the interets of the current ruling class.

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The whole capitalist world, yes. Capitalists and anti-capitalists don't help each other.

Yes, the whole world is against Cuba. We've been planning it for ages, just waiting for the chance.

Quote[/b] ]People die of famine in Bangladesh too. After the dissolution of the USSR the whole trading bloc in the socialist states collapsed. Comecon was dissolved. This hit north korea and cuba to name a few. However, since, the economies have improved very much. In Cuba they're completely back on track. North Korea has problems buying oil, without oil they can't run any mechanized agriculture, no tractors, no truck transports etc. That affects agricultural production. Esp if you see that North K. mostly is a country that consists of mountains. When the few farms are flooded there are even bigger problems.

Well North Korea not having oil is their problem. They seem to be doing something wrong, seeing how the rest of the world doesn't seem to have a lot of problems getting oil. So what could they be doing wrong? Oh, they're nuts.

Quote[/b] ]Why do people think Stalin, Lenin, Brezjnev are good guys while people dislike Gorbachev and Yeltsin? Russians are the ones who were "oppressed" by their regimes. Wouldn't they know better than you and liberal western media? How come people in the west think Yeltsin was good?

Maybe it shows what dodgy education we have here? What kind of media we have? You refuse to see the facts.

People also thought Hitler was good. Ever heard of cult of personality? That's why people liked Stalin.

Quote[/b] ]Yea compare Germany to Cuba. Haha. Why not compare Liberia or Bangladesh with Cuba then? You got to see the conditions. Haiti has a lot of factories. But we don't have to pick Haiti, compare to any other country in South america and you'll find that Cuba has a higher standard of living and respect human rights to a much larger extent.

Why not? And I've said it before: being lead in the third world is still the third world.

Lets say the standard of living is based on the GDP per capita, here are a couple who beat Cuba in South America:

Venezuela

Brazil

Peru

Paraguay

Guyana

While I partially agree with the first part of your sentence, I disagree with the second part.

Quote[/b] ]Hard work! Haha! And say it's like that, what does that justify that they exploit other people and earn money from their work?

I'm not talking about Coca Cola or McDonalds or Nike. They are exploting little fiddly bastards, I'll agree with you there.

I'm talking about smaller local companies where you start from the bottom up. Even coca cola started small, now it's big, because it's successful at selling their product.

And you act as if workers don't get paid for their work. It's the same under socialism. You preach about exploitation when you support the system which ends up exploiting it's people the most.

Quote[/b] ]You don't get rich if you work alone, but if you make 1000 people work for you you get rich easily.

Yeah. What's wrong with that? You increase your staff and you also have to pay your staff. And you increase output to meet demand. Woah! It's called marketing!

You act as if all companies are made out of baby eating people who just can't wait for more people to exploit.

Now, I'm going to try to restrain myself from posting here because beating any sense into you is probably only possible by actually beating you. I don't like to go to extremes when it comes to political views, but when I see somebody go to an extreme like you, I just have to take the opposite stand to mellow things out. I usually stand in the middle and don't support one side or the other because both sides contain moronic cunts that just like to screw things up.

žTry to see this: everything has a good and bad side. You're only trying to see one side, I'm trying to give you the bad side, but you seem to deny it. Things are not what they seem, not matter how hard you try to believe in that.

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Cubans have proof that he was working together with the American Interests Bureau in Cuba. He's thus cooperating with a foreign power against Cuba.

How is he working with the AIB in Cuba? Talking with someone doesn't mean you are cooperating with someone.

Quote[/b] ]

Amnesty is only concerned with individuals. If Hitler would be imprisoned they would call him a prisoner of conscience (if they were doing things consistently) and not care whether he would make life worse for lots of people while outside jail.

Amnesty International has criticized a number of nations including the United States for many things (e.g., alleged human rights abuse).

Quote[/b] ]But if you're interested, the US which you don't critizise also imprisons people who work for cuba. Five cuban anti-terrorist specialists were sentenced to prison by US authorities.

You are too funny. Cuban agents were caught conducting espionage within the United States. Lets ignore the fact that they were apart of a larger network of spying. Also, lets ignore that the defense for them admitted they monitored military installations and collected data. Finally, lets ignore the fact that they didn't register as foreign agents.

I'm sure the Cubans would be pissed if the CIA/FBI conducted an on-the-grounds monitoring operation of Assata Shakur without their knowledge. Also, they monitored the Cuban military on the side. icon_rolleyes.gif

Again, the Cubans haven't found any evidence he is an American agent.

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The cuban parliament which is elected by the people, elects the president. You have a naive picture of Cuba when you think the president decides everything. He's not like your "democratic" kings and queen-parasites before the end of ww1.

From the FCO:

Cuba is a one-party state.  There is a high level of social control and a strong police presence.  There are widespread restrictions on freedom of speech, association and assembly for Cuban nationals.  Political demonstrations or gatherings not sanctioned by the government may be broken up and should be avoided.  The Cuban government discourages Cubans working in the tourist industry from developing personal relationships or accepting gifts from foreign nationals.  The Government is however clear that it continues to welcome British tourists, and there has been no hostility shown to individual British visitors.

Castro is both head of the executive and head of state. There is absolutely no separation of powers. Castro, therefore, gets to make all the decisions.

Quote[/b] ]
Quote[/b] ]It is up to you to verify your claims, not me, so you provide the links.

Sure, here's a link http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/3344489.stm [...]

More than 260 deaths in one week in east of england. Now be proud and wave your flag.

As -snafu- has pointed out, Winter Fuel Payments. No one has died because they couldn't afford heating, they died because they were old/ill. That's how nature works, things are born, get weak, and die - even in Cuba.

Quote[/b] ]I never heard about any of your queens freeze to death. But yea, when one castle gets cold they can always go to another.

Bitter, much?

Quote[/b] ]Yes you're being oppressed when you produce wares for X dollars a month, but get paid Y. The owners take X-Y as profits, and they don't have to work for it. And when people strike against this, the owners/capitalists use their state, their police and army to crush the protestors.

Do you think people find businesses in a christmas cracker? People work to start a business, they work to develop products and services, marketing, distribution, suppliers, administration, they're not sat in their mansions, having another prole thrown on the fire whilst being fed freshly peeled grapes by nubile Amazonian twins.

Quote[/b] ]You have a nice picture of the third world.

I should do, I've been to enough of it.

Quote[/b] ]And your kind of people are the reason to why the third world still exists.

Endemic corruption is why most of the third world is third world, not me.

Quote[/b] ]Neo-colonialism, unfair trade policies and embargos. Yea, mr expert. Cuba is a communist country. When I last looked they had a worker-state. A communist society is state and class-less. There haven't been any yet, it takes many generations of socialism and a world revolution before you can get that far. Cuba only describes itself as socialist, which is correct. Calling it a communist country is ignorant.

My bold. Do you see what you did there?

Quote[/b] ]During communism there are no borders even, so talking about communist countries is a contradiction. Oh, so trade is suddenly "capitalist" mr expert? How's that?

Trade is kind of the point of capitalism. Look it up on Wikipedia if you don't believe me.

Quote[/b] ]Cuba can be compared to other countries in the region, and it does better than those. That's a fair comparison because the history of colonialism and US-exploitation is the same in the carribean region.

Hmm, should I retire to Cuba or the BVI? Collapsing hovels and nutty dictator or Pusser's Rum and bikini clad ladies?

Quote[/b] ]
Quote[/b] ]People arrive on the island with malaria, through a simple program of anti-malarial drugs and quarantining malaria is eradicated. It is a very easy thing to do on a small island. Try doing some research on how many Caribbean islands have malaria instead of comparing Cuba to South America, which is not an island and to which malaria is native.

Being communist isn't immunisation against malaria and Fidel Castro hasn't driven all the mosquitoes out of Cuba.

On a small island? How do you make Cuba a small island? And why didn't they do that program before Castro? Why did literacy increase dramatically (and now at a rate higher than the developed country Sweden). It's the same reason.

It being a piece of land surrounded by water, which is quite small is what makes it a small island. As opposed to Australia, which is a large island, or Switzerland which is not an island.

Quote[/b] ]And besides you're wrong:

Not possible, I'm never wrong. In fact, I foresee a Wikipedia link.

Quote[/b] ] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Malariageodistribution.png

The map shows the malaria distrubution. Do you see that blue in the carribean? Pfft, no malaria on "small" "islands".

The map shows two Carribean islands. Is that really your idea of evidence? Here, for your delectation, is a lesson in evidence:

Clicky clicky. Jamaica had some isolated cases of malaria in the last year caused by infected people travelling to the island, other than that the only Carribean island with malaria is Hispaniola.

If you didn't spend your time chasing 'information' on Wikipedia on the fly and, instead, concentrated on learning you would, perhaps, be less clueless.

Quote[/b] ]It's no slum. Those are a few pictures of a few individual houses with no background info. Go to greece or the US or whatever country and you'll find the same standard. But still no slum.

It's a slum. I've been to Greece and the US and no, they haven't the same standard.

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The argument that owners of companies are not doing hard work and are just using workers to become rich is just completely ridiculous. Especially in a case when a company is run by its founders. I disputed it with a real-life example and with some other points earlier in this thread and I won't repeat it. At least one person understood what I was talking about and it was indication that that person actually was thinking about it without stubbornly rejecting all counter-arguments.

As an example, are the founders and owners of Bohemia Interactive Studio only evil bastards who use their workers as slaves? * And have they not by themselves gone through a huge amount of education (formal or non-formal) and done huge amounts of work to get to the point in which they are today? Have they not created jobs for other people to benefit from?

Why are you on this forum Spokesperson? Are you on this forum because a socialistic/communistic system decided that people need to have Operation Flashpoint and Armed Assault? In your ideal system people will not get Operation Flashpoint or Armed Assault. Think about it. Seriously. Your whole existence on this forum is alone the biggest counter-argument to your own arguments.

It is exactly the kind of arguments such as the one about the owners of companies, Spokesperson, which make me totally convinced that the ideology you are trying to sell is not worth buying at all. Maybe you have to revise your marketing plan, because the current way you are doing it doesn't really work.

You are trying to sell something which I find against the human nature. I will not buy such things, and most of my fellow countrymen won't either. But maybe in your ideal World you can keep selling even worthless things, as in your system you do not need to make a profit to continue operation.

* <span style='font-size:7.02pt;line-height:100%'>I can hear BIS employees laughing. But you know the truth! Who pays you and who created your job.</span>

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In my "petty bourgeois" opinion, pure communism is just as futile an economic system as pure free-market capitalism. They both require there to be no greed in the system for long-term economic sustainability. Bad things happen when an individual in a commune takes more than his share, and bad things happen when the owner of a giant corporation buys out all the competition and raises prices for a higher profit. Greed is a simple fact of human nature, and it's not gonna change anytime soon.

I think that European-style socialism is overall the best economic paradigm in practice. You have a well-regulated market with very good social services for those who can't sustain themselves with the market alone. That's as best as we have at the moment, IMO.

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Quote[/b] ]Well North Korea not having oil is their problem. They seem to be doing something wrong, seeing how the rest of the world doesn't seem to have a lot of problems getting oil. So what could they be doing wrong? Oh, they're nuts.

It's because nobody wants to trade them oil at market prices.

Quote[/b] ]People also thought Hitler was good. Ever heard of cult of personality? That's why people liked Stalin.

Yeah, same thing with Bush, Churchill, etc then too. Easy explanation that's wrong. There's no cult of personality of Stalin anymore and hasn't been for 60 years. Still, people like him. Your theory is wrong.

Quote[/b] ]Lets say the standard of living is based on the GDP per capita, here are a couple who beat Cuba in South America:

GDP per capita is measured in dollars. The value of the cuban money is very low compared to the dollar because of the american trade embargo. And besides, free healthcare and no starvation, high standards doesn't count in to GDP.

Quote[/b] ]And you act as if workers don't get paid for their work. It's the same under socialism. You preach about exploitation when you support the system which ends up exploiting it's people the most.

Capitalism is based on the production of surplus value. As long as a worker creates surplus value for a parasite owner he's exploited. In socialism there is no private ownership of the means of production and thus no exploitation.

Quote[/b] ]How is he working with the AIB in Cuba? Talking with someone doesn't mean you are cooperating with someone.

Well, mail the cuban embassy and ask. And of course it's not about talking with someone. You can't have an interests bureau and allow it without communicating.

Quote[/b] ]Amnesty International has criticized a number of nations including the United States for many things (e.g., alleged human rights abuse).

Yes, so what makes Cuba worse?

Quote[/b] ]Again, the Cubans haven't found any evidence he is an American agent.

You seem to know better single-handedly than the whole cuban jurisdictional system. According to wikipedia he was working with the US.

Quote[/b] ]Castro is both head of the executive and head of state. There is absolutely no separation of powers. Castro, therefore, gets to make all the decisions

In many countries the head of state has no power. Having both titles doesn't mean anything practical. Castro is elected by the parliament. Castro doesn't get to make all decisions. That wouldn't be possible even.

Quote[/b] ]My bold. Do you see what you did there?

I repeated what you claimed in order to comment it. I should've made it more clear perhaps.

Quote[/b] ]Trade is kind of the point of capitalism. Look it up on Wikipedia if you don't believe me.

No, that's wrong. Trade is present in most kinds of economic systems, including socialism. The main difference between societies is the ownership of the means of production.

Quote[/b] ]The map shows two Carribean islands. Is that really your idea of evidence? Here, for your delectation, is a lesson in evidence:

Clicky clicky. Jamaica had some isolated cases of malaria in the last year caused by infected people travelling to the island, other than that the only Carribean island with malaria is Hispaniola.

If you didn't spend your time chasing 'information' on Wikipedia on the fly and, instead, concentrated on learning you would, perhaps, be less clueless.

Big carribean islands.

What do we read under haiti?

http://www.nathnac.org/ds/c_pages/country_page_HT.htm

Dominican Rep:

http://www.nathnac.org/ds/c_pages/country_page_DO.htm

Then check Cuba:

"No risk of malaria".

Pretty funny. Isn't it? Wonder why. The neighbouring island has a lot of malaria. Cuba had it, but no longer. No malaria on slands pfft. Just admit you're wrong.

Quote[/b] ]It's a slum. I've been to Greece and the US and no, they haven't the same standard.

You should know that Cuban houses don't look like that normally. Same way with Greece and US. There are houses here and there that have that standard. But they make up no slums.

US:

bronx.large.jpg

Slum_South_Bronx_3_small.jpg

bronx.jpg

Greece:

lefkimi-2x.jpg

Again you're wrong.

But this is what you define as slum:

Thailand:

Slum_Thailand_small.jpg

There are no such things in Cuba.

Quote[/b] ]I think that European-style socialism is overall the best economic paradigm in practice. You have a well-regulated market with very good social services for those who can't sustain themselves with the market alone. That's as best as we have at the moment, IMO.

There's no socialism anywhere in Europe. But the communist movement is strong. I think it's remarkable that a country like Cuba can do better than the US and european countries even though it's a third world country.

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Real social democrats want and work for socialism, but those are very few. Most "social democrats" are social liberals politically.

Still, it could be worse.

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Well, mail the cuban embassy and ask. And of course it's not about talking with someone. You can't have an interests bureau and allow it without communicating.

Classic! You do know he was given a summary trial? It is difficult to find information about his trial because it was done basically in secret.

http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/cases/57-04.html

Quote[/b] ]

8. The petitioners indicate that, for a five-day period, from April 3 to 7, 2003, the summary trials were held and that, in the course of these trials, reporters, diplomats, and the general public were barred from entering. Only the closest relatives of those being tried and members of the Communist Party were allowed to attend the trials. No trial lasted more than one day.

Quote[/b] ]

Yes, so what makes Cuba worse?

What are you talking about? I tried to show you that Amnesty International isn't in the pocket of the United States and the organization has criticized many nations.

Quote[/b] ]

You seem to know better single-handedly than the whole cuban jurisdictional system. According to wikipedia he was working with the US.

See above.... icon_rolleyes.gif

The Cubans have mostly been quiet about him. If he was an American agent, the Cubans would of rubbed it the face of the Americans. The trial would of been televised instead of being behind closed doors and lasting one day. The Cubans would had gone at lengths to embarrass the United States. However, for some reason, they have been silent.

It doesn't sound like he is an American agent... whistle.gif

Quote[/b] ]

There are no such things in Cuba.

Maybe they are......

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,17944619-1702,00.html

Quote[/b] ]

Supermodel nabbed by Cuban police

From correspondents in Havana

January 26, 2006 12:12pm

CZECH supermodel Helena Houdova took a break from the catwalk to visit communist Cuba and was arrested for taking photographs in a slum, she said today.

The former Miss Czech Republic 1999 runs a foundation in New York that supports disadvantaged children in nine countries, and she wanted to see what she could do to help in Cuba.

But on Monday, Cuban security police detained Houdova and her travel companion, Czech psychologist Mariana Kroftova, while they were taking photographs in the poor Havana neighbourhood of Arroyo Naranjo.

The two women were held overnight in police custody and not allowed to call the Czech Embassy.

They were released 11 hours later after signing a letter vowing not to engage in "counter-revolutionary" activities, the model said.

Police confiscated photographic film, but Houdova said she managed to hide the memory card from her digital camera in her bra.

"They screamed at us. We were afraid," Houdova said. "We grew up under communism and know what it is like."

"Something needs to change here," Kroftova said.

The two women were told not to leave Havana until their departure from Cuba on Sunday.

http://www.ihrn.gov.za/Current%20Research/Other%20Countries/Havana.htm

^

Housing research on Havanna

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Yea let's link to BBC and other liberal media and listen to them instead of a homepage of cuban citizen-internet-activists. Let's listen to what big business says about income they could've got if Cuba was free market like Dubai.

1. You've linked to the BBC. Apparently, it must be reliable when its coverage agrees with your agenda, but when it doesn't it is all some liberal lie.

2. The BBC is not a business, it makes no money, not a penny. It is owned by the British public, in essence, it is a socialist media entity.

Quote[/b] ]
Quote[/b] ]So the whole world is in a great conspiracy against the island paradise of Cuba?

The whole capitalist world, yes.

The whole capitalist world doesn't care about Cuba. If it was hit by a meteor tomorrow, no one would notice.

Quote[/b] ]Yea compare Germany to Cuba. Haha. Why not compare Liberia or Bangladesh with Cuba then?

Because your argument is that Cuban socialism is the best form of governance, not that there are countries worse off than Cuba. I could argue that Mont Blanc is the tallest mountain in the world, as long as we only compare it to smaller ones.

All of the people you are trying to convince that Cuba is their salvation live in the countries that are better than Cuba. Guess what - none of us want to live in a worse country. All of your 'Cuba, it's not as shit as Somalia' bollocks is fooling no one.

Quote[/b] ]No media is unpartisan. Everything represents a certain class' interests. BBC is a partisan liberal propaganda company that represent the interets of the current ruling class.

See above. You are making yourself look stupid. The BBC is NOT a business.

Quote[/b] ]GDP per capita is measured in dollars. The value of the cuban money is very low compared to the dollar because of the american trade embargo. And besides, free healthcare and no starvation, high standards doesn't count in to GDP.

I'd explain exchange rates to you, but I don't think it would help.

Quote[/b] ]
Quote[/b] ]The map shows two Carribean islands. Is that really your idea of evidence? Here, for your delectation, is a lesson in evidence:

Clicky clicky. Jamaica had some isolated cases of malaria in the last year caused by infected people travelling to the island, other than that the only Carribean island with malaria is Hispaniola.

If you didn't spend your time chasing 'information' on Wikipedia on the fly and, instead, concentrated on learning you would, perhaps, be less clueless.

Big carribean islands.

What do we read under haiti?

http://www.nathnac.org/ds/c_pages/country_page_HT.htm

Dominican Rep:

http://www.nathnac.org/ds/c_pages/country_page_DO.htm

Then check Cuba:

"No risk of malaria".

Pretty funny. Isn't it? Wonder why. The neighbouring island has a lot of malaria. Cuba had it, but no longer. No malaria on slands pfft. Just admit you're wrong.

Are you for fucking real? You must be being deliberately obtuse as no one could possibly be this dense.

I shall repeat: 'the only Carribean island with malaria is Hispaniola'. Hispaniola is the island of Haiti/Dominican Republic. Repeating exactly what I have just said but using different words does not prove me wrong, especially as I am not.

Malaria is not native to the Carribean; there is only one Carribean island with malaria - that island only has it because there is no policy between the two countries on it for eradicating the disease as one of those countries is far too busy being in an almost permanant state of civil war; Cuba not having malaria means bugger all, in the same way as Canada not having Yellow Fever. If Cuba was the medical utopia you want us to believe, it would have eliminated the other mosquito borne disease of Dengue Fever that is actually endemic to the region - but they haven't.

Quote[/b] ]some pictures

Your first photo is of a market, not a house. The big sign on the side saying 'Bronx Terminal Market' gives it away.

Your next two pictures are of derelict buildings, not houses. The shutters on the doors, grass were people would be walking, and the absence of people and signs of life give it away. You do understand the difference between an empty building and a habited one?

There is nothing wrong with the Greek house, it has a roof and presumably windows behind the shutters. It could do with a touch of paint, but that is cosmetic, not structural. It certainly won't have a family to a room.

Quote[/b] ]But this is what you define as slum:

No, the definition of slum is:

A heavily populated urban area characterised by sub-standard housing and squalour.

Quote[/b] ]There are no such things in Cuba.

07-minister.jpg

There are no American infidels in Baghdad. Never!

We've seen the photos of sub-standard housing and squalour. You are not talking to your brainwashed commie minions.

Quote[/b] ]There's no socialism anywhere in Europe. But the communist movement is strong.

If you're representative of the communist movement, I don't think we have anything to worry about.

Quote[/b] ]I think it's remarkable that a country like Cuba can do better than the US and european countries even though it's a third world country.

I think it's remarkable that someone could say something so stupid.

A third world country is not doing better than a first world country, being first world is better than being third world. The third placed football team in League two is not doing better than the 9th placed team in the Premiership.

Is it ever going to sink in that people do not want your socialist utopia. I am an adult, I neither need nor want the state babysitting me. If or when I get to the point where I can't sustain my own existence than I will do what all other animals do and die. The day the state thinks it can decide what I need is the day I start a very bloody coup.

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Quote[/b] ]The Cubans have mostly been quiet about him. If he was an American agent, the Cubans would of rubbed it the face of the Americans. The trial would of been televised instead of being behind closed doors and lasting one day. The Cubans would had gone at lengths to embarrass the United States. However, for some reason, they have been silent.

It doesn't sound like he is an American agent...

US aggression against Cuba is nothing new, spies and terrorists are very common:

http://www.voltairenet.org/article132624.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki....ca#Cuba

I don't think you've got enough evidence nor knowledge of cuban and international law to judge whether people are guilty or not.

Amnesty considers dissident spies as prisoners of conscience as well.

Quote[/b] ]Maybe they are......

So you're refering to some super model that makes a comment on poor housing standards?

Quote[/b] ]In market economies, most of the poor live in slums and most slum dwellers are poor. However, in Cuba, this occurs less frequently because of relative tenure security, generally low-cost or free housing, and the restricted legal housing and land markets (despite the growth in informal ones).

Substandard housing, yes. Slums no. Sure some people live in houses that are very substandard but there are no large communities of them like in other market oriented countries.

Quote[/b] ]3. Cubans live in miserable slums. Wrong! In fact, the only slum in Cuba is Old Havana, foolishly (in my opinion) kept for the tourists. Most Cubans who once lived in shanties now live in institutional apartment buildings, just like most Spaniards. A substantial number live in old houses considered substandard by the government and scheduled to be replaced. But very few of those have dirt floors. Far more live in 50's era homes that are perfectly alright. More and more are living in new apartments and casitas that put the Russian concept Cuba accepted for too long to shame. The only dirt floored shanty towns (actually some small clusters) I have seen in Cuba are the unnecessary, non-systemic result of a minority of refuseniks who abandon good houses in their home towns to come to Havana or Santiago to hustle dollars. One of their scams is to show off their artificial poverty to foolish tourists for donations. Most small cities in Cuba are nice to beautiful places where there's nothing that looks like a slum.

You should read this:

http://www.iammyownreporter.com/misconceptions.htm

Quote[/b] ]1. You've linked to the BBC. Apparently, it must be reliable when its coverage agrees with your agenda, but when it doesn't it is all some liberal lie.

2. The BBC is not a business, it makes no money, not a penny. It is owned by the British public, in essence, it is a socialist media entity.

1. Yes I've linked to the BBC. If BBC writes about football I have no reason to think they are biased in that article. If the BBC even says there are misconceptions about Cuba, it's more likely to be true, because they've got no interest to support the socialist model. And a few journalists may be socialists themselves.

2. BBC is a business even if it makes no money. People who work for the BBC have been educated and grown up in a country based on liberal hegemony. It's like growing up in a christian/muslim country. You turn religious yourself.

Quote[/b] ]The whole capitalist world doesn't care about Cuba. If it was hit by a meteor tomorrow, no one would notice.

It does very much so. Invasions, terrorism, embargos. CIA operations. Cuba shows that a different system is possible and better than the current market-liberal one. Why is there no criticism of Saudi Arabia, Thailand or the United Arab Emirates? Why are socialists always couped or murdered? Allende, Chavez, Ortega. US is the only country apart from Nazi germany that has been found guilty of terrorism, by an international court:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicaragua_v._United_States

Quote[/b] ]Because your argument is that Cuban socialism is the best form of governance, not that there are countries worse off than Cuba. I could argue that Mont Blanc is the tallest mountain in the world, as long as we only compare it to smaller ones.

All of the people you are trying to convince that Cuba is their salvation live in the countries that are better than Cuba. Guess what - none of us want to live in a worse country. All of your 'Cuba, it's not as shit as Somalia' bollocks is fooling no one.

Socialist Cuba performs much better than countries with the same conditions that are market positive. I'm not saying that Cuba is richer than Germany. If Cuba was liberal it would do just as bad as Haiti or the Dominican Republic.

Quote[/b] ]Are you for fucking real? You must be being deliberately obtuse as no one could possibly be this dense.

I shall repeat: 'the only Carribean island with malaria is Hispaniola'. Hispaniola is the island of Haiti/Dominican Republic. Repeating exactly what I have just said but using different words does not prove me wrong, especially as I am not.

Malaria is not native to the Carribean; there is only one Carribean island with malaria - that island only has it because there is no policy between the two countries on it for eradicating the disease as one of those countries is far too busy being in an almost permanant state of civil war; Cuba not having malaria means bugger all, in the same way as Canada not having Yellow Fever. If Cuba was the medical utopia you want us to believe, it would have eliminated the other mosquito borne disease of Dengue Fever that is actually endemic to the region - but they haven't.

You're wrong. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaria_and_the_Caribbean

Cuba had malaria before the revolution but eradicated it. The conditions of Hispaniola are no different to that of Cuba.

http://www.cdc.gov/Malaria/biology/mosquito/map.htm

The very same malaria mosqitoes (blue) are present in many places in South America.

Malaria in Jamaica: http://www.who.int/csr/don/2007_02_09/en/index.html

Funny you mention the Dengue Fever as there are no vaccines against it. Why would Cuba have one?

Image:Dengue06.png

Quote[/b] ]I think it's remarkable that someone could say something so stupid.

A third world country is not doing better than a first world country, being first world is better than being third world. The third placed football team in League

So why do Cubans live longer than americans? Why do all people have access health care and education? Why is the average medical standards better? The infant mortality rate is lower in Cuba than it is in the US. Why is cuba the country with most academics/teachers per capita? Why is unemployment minimal? Why is there practically no homelessness? Why has the economy been on a huge constant rise the latest 10 years? Why is Cuba the only country in the world with sustainable development? Why do americans move to Cuba to study and get proper health care? Why has Cuba a higher literacy rate than most countries of the world apart from 3 EU countries and Georgia? The list goes on.

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i think you are wrong about there not being no socialists in europe, like c'mon there is like tons of different types of people in europewith differentreligions and beliefs and politics.

I think the us once was angry at Cuba and now its just that they where angry and passed some laws or something about the embargos they are to lazy to remove 'em.

But i don't get it why Cuba would be so intresting for the Us in the first place... its just some piece of island, there are tons of 'em all over the pacific and around the gulf sea. biggrin_o.gif

The thing is whit monarchy in Sweden is that its just a symbol like the one you have on your Nike shoes or mercedes car ornament on the front / top of the hood. wink_o.gif

Sure the peeps cost a bit of cash to have 'em do their things but in Sweden there is a few ways to make a living, you either work and get money or you go to school and get money from the state or your life is in a bad state and you need help and have no apartment and you recieve money so you cna survive.

But all the different ways have their own hard work.

Being a student is often poor and buying something like a new Tv

needs careful planning so you have enough cash to buy food n stuff, also if you dont study good you can get the cash supply cut down tounge2.gif

Being unemployed you need to search for jobs and go to meetings at the unemployment center and stuff and its a lot pressure mentally and stuff.

Working and making money is great, not much worries, just tring to not spend it all on junk tounge2.gif More options imo in life, if you wanna try progressing upwards a bit in the chain or to change to a new job or go study something when you feel too.

The best way would in my opinion be to win a lottery ticket and take it easy for a while but i think i would end up working anyways just to feel that my life has some kind of meaning other than to buy tons of junk and partying tounge2.gif

being rich early on i think would make you miss some of lifes important lessons as handling money carefully and treating people nice and work good and people treat you good. Just somethings i thought of when im to tired to study smile_o.gif

back 2 school goodnight.gif

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Cuba was interesting to the US before the revolution, and still is. It could be a huge market for US companies. Saudi Arabia already is, therefore no criticism, just cooperation. Today cuba is independent.

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