Political Change

[Spokesperson 0]

I don't understand how you can be proud of a country where people freeze to death, go unemployed, homeless, sell themselves for money etc while royals have castles that could fit tens of thousands of people. UK is a country where those who got more money get better education/healthcare and are guaranteed a better life.

Quote[/b] ]Like the USSR, Che Guevara, Mao's Commies etc. Little brother of the US? Well technically the US was the love child of European immigrants. So not really.

So when did the USSR, Che and Mao do that? Did Robin Hood oppress rob and burn in your opinion too? Well according to Prince John he was. Which side are you on?

Quote[/b] ]Also I don't see how this magical socialism is supposed to better the world. The system will still be corrupt, people will still be power hungry and do anything to get into a position of power, not everyone will be equal, not everyone will have motor vehicles, crime will still exist etc.

Of course it can be corrupt, but it will be much harder if the system is transparent and if people vote in local democratic councils. Since when is more democracy a bad thing? Why vote at all, when it can be corrupt? Socialism is not about sharing everything equal. In socialism you get more if you work more. The difference is that you got to work (if your health allows) to earn money unlike today where owners got the power. In socialism the working class got the power.

Quote[/b] ]Moreover earlier on in this thread you mentioned that luxury goods are horrible parts of capitalism. So what are we supposed to do for entertainment in the socialist world? Sit and do nothing? No TV? No cinema? No pubs? No computers? These are all luxury goods. Are we going back in time to a subsistance farming based lifestyle where people work for hours on end to produce barely enough food for themselves?

What is your vision Spokesperson? You going to get rid of the family structure to? Just like one of your heroes Pol Pot?

An emphasis on the production of luxuries rather than on base goods when people starve is bad. In cuba no people starve (quite remarkable, if you compare to countries in the same region), and they got computers, tvs, pubs, cinemas etc. No problem.

I think it's up to every family to decide how they want to live. It's not up to some conservative government to decide. I'm a proponent of freedom.

Pol Pot was supported by the US and China. Socialist Vietnam had to get rid of him. People who call themselves socialists don't have to be that. Just look at the social liberal social democrats or labour.

[TrevorOfCrete 0]

UK might be one of the biggest economies, yes. But normal people don't benefit from it. Those who own and rule the country do.

Why do you have that high military spendning? Well, it seems like you like to go to other countries and oppress, rob and burn. Little brother of the US!

i disagree.  The uk's economy is built upon consumer goods.  We dont make masses of steel or textiles anymore,  people make money from improving other peoples lives through services.  simples fact.

And the british army no longer represses, the operations in Iraq and Afganistan are not repression. If you call goverment aid of billions to afganistan 'robbing' then you are seriously mis-guided.

[R3MF 0]

to go to other countries and oppress, rob and burn. Little brother of the US!

Be careful getting into an argument with this guy R3MF. It is his sole purpose in life to trawl through internet forums pimping his commie views. Even when you counter one of his points he will reply in arrse covering double speak.

Noted, my thanks to you.

[Spokesperson 0]

UK might be one of the biggest economies, yes. But normal people don't benefit from it. Those who own and rule the country do.

Why do you have that high military spendning? Well, it seems like you like to go to other countries and oppress, rob and burn. Little brother of the US!

i disagree.  The uk's economy is built upon consumer goods.  We dont make masses of steel or textiles anymore,  people make money from improving other peoples lives through services.  simples fact.

And the british army no longer represses,  the operations in Iraq and Afganistan are not repression.  If you call goverment aid of billions to afganistan 'robbing' then you are seriously mis-guided.

Textiles are consumer goods as well. Nothing has changed, you still have the same capitalism. Same exploitation and wage slavery.

Well, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are repression. Hundreds of thousands of civilians have been murdured by the liberal regimes in Washington and London. The natural resources like oil are taken by force at dirt prices. The Afghans and Iraqis don't want you there.

You aid to Afghanistan is like the toy in the cereal package, they paid for it, through oil, good contracts with your companies and so on. The current president of Afghanistan was an employee of the american oil company Unocal as well as a CIA agent.

In occupied Iraq you break the geneva convention against torture. You also break the convention by holding elections in occupied territory.

Iraq and Afghanistan are your puppet-governments.

[-Snafu- 77]

I don't understand how you can be proud of a country where people freeze to death, go unemployed, homeless, sell themselves for money etc while royals have castles that could fit tens of thousands of people. UK is a country where those who got more money get better education/healthcare and are guaranteed a better life.

Quote[/b] ]Like the USSR, Che Guevara, Mao's Commies etc. Little brother of the US? Well technically the US was the love child of European immigrants. So not really.

So when did the USSR, Che and Mao do that? Did Robin Hood oppress rob and burn in your opinion too? Well according to Prince John he was. Which side are you on?

Quote[/b] ]Also I don't see how this magical socialism is supposed to better the world. The system will still be corrupt, people will still be power hungry and do anything to get into a position of power, not everyone will be equal, not everyone will have motor vehicles, crime will still exist etc.

Of course it can be corrupt, but it will be much harder if the system is transparent and if people vote in local democratic councils. Since when is more democracy a bad thing? Why vote at all, when it can be corrupt? Socialism is not about sharing everything equal. In socialism you get more if you work more. The difference is that you got to work (if your health allows) to earn money unlike today where owners got the power. In socialism the working class got the power.

Quote[/b] ]Moreover earlier on in this thread you mentioned that luxury goods are horrible parts of capitalism. So what are we supposed to do for entertainment in the socialist world? Sit and do nothing? No TV? No cinema? No pubs? No computers? These are all luxury goods. Are we going back in time to a subsistance farming based lifestyle where people work for hours on end to produce barely enough food for themselves?

What is your vision Spokesperson? You going to get rid of the family structure to? Just like one of your heroes Pol Pot?

An emphasis on the production of luxuries rather than on base goods when people starve is bad. In cuba no people starve (quite remarkable, if you compare to countries in the same region), and they got computers, tvs, pubs, cinemas etc. No problem.

I think it's up to every family to decide how they want to live. It's not up to some conservative government to decide. I'm a proponent of freedom.

Pol Pot was supported by the US and China. Socialist Vietnam had to get rid of him. People who call themselves socialists don't have to be that. Just look at the social liberal social democrats or labour.

USSR in Eastern European in countries during and after WW2. Poland is a prime example. USSR's invasion of the 'Stan which you have so conviently forgotten in your attacks against NATO operations in that country. Che was quite a cold hearted chap for a peoples revolutionary. There are first hand accounts of him executing prisoners during his insurgency in Cuba. A revolutionary like him should have known that the soldiers he was fighting were the people he was trying to 'save'. Mao's soldiers often killed landowners for some reason. Would have been easier if they just took whatever land the person had.

Your explanation of socialism is the best one you have given so far and certainly does sound good. Although I still have my reservations. But does British Labour call themselves socialists? They may have back in the 80's and before but I beleive they refer to thier policies as the 'Third Way'.

[TrevorOfCrete 0]

Quote[/b] ]The Afghans and Iraqis don't want you there.

Have you ever consulted an Afgan on this view?  you have just stated out of no-where.  To my knowledge the averige Afgan is very happy about NATO support and very happy to have the oppertunity of self rule opposed to Taliban REAL opression

[Spokesperson 0]

Quote[/b] ]USSR in Eastern European in countries during and after WW2. Poland is a prime example. USSR's invasion of the 'Stan which you have so conviently forgotten in your attacks against NATO operations in that country. Che was quite a cold hearted chap for a peoples revolutionary. There are first hand accounts of him executing prisoners during his insurgency in Cuba. A revolutionary like him should have known that the soldiers he was fighting were the people he was trying to 'save'. Mao's soldiers often killed landowners for some reason. Would have been easier if they just took whatever land the person had.

Your explanation of socialism is the best one you have given so far and certainly does sound good. Although I still have my reservations. But does British Labour call themselves socialists? They may have back in the 80's and before but I beleive they refer to thier policies as the 'Third Way'

The eastern european countries participated in the nazi invasion of the Soviet Union. The role of the USSR in eastern europe was regulated in the potsdam treaty. A product of the harsh reality of war.

Guerilla warfare is no tea party. Sometimes you risk the whole campaign and the lives of other people if you take prisoners. In Bolivia this went wrong. Prisoners escaped and eventually the fascists found Che's location and executed him.

Quote[/b] ]Mao's soldiers often killed landowners for some reason. Would have been easier if they just took whatever land the person had.

Probably, but you'll have to remember that most landowners were fighting on the side of the nationalists. Land owners had murdured and mistreated workers before. The peoples liberation army consisted of workers. Some of them were angry, of course. It's no different from the French or American revolutions. Or don't you support those? You like monarchy?

Quote[/b] ]Your explanation of socialism is the best one you have given so far and certainly does sound good. Although I still have my reservations. But does British Labour call themselves socialists? They may have back in the 80's and before but I beleive they refer to thier policies as the 'Third Way'.

British Labour call themselves socialist, and they have indeed been socialist, but very long ago. They are liberals. Social liberals. There is no third way, a society either works according to capitalist or socialist principles.

Quote[/b] ]Have you ever consulted an Afgan on this view?  you have just stated out of no-where.  To my knowledge the averige Afgan is very happy about NATO support and very happy to have the oppertunity of self rule opposed to Taliban REAL opression

That's what your military and country wants you to think. Your army has control over the capital only. The resistance movement is growing, but has little chance against your helicopters and tanks. The amount of casualties rise in Afghanistan. The people of Afghanistan has no power, just like under the Talibans. They live in a puppet regime that sells oil way below market prices. A regime that agrees on pipeline contracts, and builds them. Of course feodal oppression is worse than bourgeois. But oppression is still oppression.

Why don't you listen to the ones you are told to hate directly instead of listening to liberal lies? Get yourself an own opinion, not the one of other people with special interests.

In these clips Castro speaks in Harlem and talks about human rights, progess in cuba, the plan which made the internationalist cuban forces defeat forces of the south african apartheid regime in Africa among other things:

Part 5

Part 6

Part 7

Part 8

[JdB 151]

Afghanistan...

Oil...

pipeline contracts...

Am I missing something here?

As you can see on this image, Afghanistan (as well as Pakistan) is not even mentioned on the chart as having any oil reserves worth mentioning. What does this tell me? That the map was made by capitalist pigs to influence my facist mind obviously. The world all of a sudden gets so delightfully simple, everyone that disagrees with you, you simply dub a "facist", yet you claim these evil "facist" regimes dub everything not facist to be socialist, and therefore evil

People in the Western world don't seem to be capable of having their own opinions, I suppose Russia should be counted as the Western world, as Czar Putin is making the minds up for the Russian people by messing with the democratic system and showing much more similarities to the evil Bush' election exploits than any socialist would ever want to admit.

Breaking down everything related to democracy for building your own Sovjet Union, all hail Comrad Putin. It's all good with the ignorant young masses as long as communism has driven your country to poverty long enough, but the people are young enough to be incapable of actively remembering the mess the USSR became. First you destroy the country with socialism, then you promise to rebuild it the same way

It's always nice to be in a discussion with someone that has had his ideology crammed in his brain hard enough not to be able to actually use reason, thought and logic to consider that not everything he believes is automatically true. Talk about lacking the ability to think for ones one...

Quote[/b] ]In these clips Castro speaks in Harlem and talks about human rights, progess in cuba

Castro talking about human rights, thanks for that information, I'll be sure to pass that on the next time I visit the people that dared to speak out against their glorious leader, either when standing at their grave, or at the door of their cell, half of Cuba is not living in Miami without reason. Cuba still looks like it did in the 1950's, I guess it is hard to define progress.

[TrevorOfCrete 0]

thank you for a well made argumant jdb.

Quote[/b] ]The resistance movement is growing, but has little chance against your helicopters and tanks.

 

Again you are so so so wrong.  The taliban is mostly made up of foreign fighters,  not Afgans.  The afgans hate the shariah law the Taliban impose,  and prefer a local council maintained by village elders.  This has been the way of life in this area for centuries,  the Talibans laws pre-invasion were not long standing.

the main difference between afganistan and iraq,  The bast majority of afgans want us there, even the US troops

as this vidio shows.

[Spokesperson 0]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan_Oil_Pipeline

"What does this tell me? That the map was made by communist pigs to influence my socialist mind obviously. The world all of a sudden gets so delightfully simple, everyone that disagrees with you, you simply dub a "commie", yet you claim these evil "commie" regimes dub everything not capitalist to be socialist, and therefore evil "

Maybe you should check the facts first?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unocal (now Chevron)

Operations -> Central Asia.

Afghanistan both has it's own natural resources in shape of oil and gas, and a strategical position for delivering oil to china and india without passing Iran or Russia.

Quote[/b] ]People in the Western world don't seem to be capable of having their own opinions, I suppose Russia should be counted as the Western world, as Czar Putin is making the minds up for the Russian people by messing with the democratic system and showing much more similarities to the evil Bush' election exploits than any socialist would ever want to admit.

Putin is a conservative, and his party market-oriented. I dislike Putin very much, but the media bias is a prime example of western propaganda.

Russia has been a superpower for the last few hundred years (apart from the post Soviet times). It has nothing to do

with socialism or communism.

Quote[/b] ]Castro talking about human rights, thanks for that information, I'll be sure to pass that on the next time I visit the people that dared to speak out against their glorious leader, either when standing at their grave, or at the door of their cell, half of Cuba is not living in Miami without reason. Cuba still looks like it did in the 1950's, I guess it is hard to define progress.

You're wrong. In Cuba everyone is free to protest and vote for that matter too. Anti-government demonstrations happen sometimes but the police don't interfere. Cuba has never shot any demonstrators unlike most western countries. You're full of liberal misinformation.

There are many cubans who live in Miami. Mostly the well-to-do's, criminals and batista supporters that fled when Cuba socialized their industry.

http://newswww.bbc.net.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4567393.stm

Wow, that must be real oppression...

The demonstrations are usually pro-cuban though. Like this one: http://edition.cnn.com/2000/LAW/06/24/elian.ruling.02/

First of may gathers millions all around cuba.

Cuba has no own car industry like most other third world countries and can't buy new cars in the same way as most other third world countries due to the blocade. But there are loads of new cars if you look at cuba today.

Furthermore, cuba is one of the leading countries in bio-medicine. They have higher literacy rates than Sweden, practically no unemployment and no homelessness. Higher amount of educated people. More doctors per capita, no malaria, free education and healthcare, no exploitation. Cubans live longer than americans and have better healthcare even though they don't pay for it.

How can this be? How can cuba be the only country in the world with sustainable development according to the WWF? Communist propaganda?

Cuba like Mexico or Haiti are third world countries. Cuba is no paradise, but it's far better than its latin american capitalist neighbours. Of course cubans have left the island, but it's much more common to leave for the US in other countries nearby. One has to see the proportions and not just talk about Cuba as if it was the only country.

Yeah right no progress...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/Rent-Cuba-Carib.png

And in the latest ten years they've had extremely high growth. In the latest few years 10%+.

You have no clue what you're talking about JdB, you're one of those liberals who swallow everything that's said in liberal so called "unbiased" media.

Quote[/b] ]Again you are so so so wrong.  The taliban is mostly made up of foreign fighters,  not Afgans.  The afgans hate the shariah law the Taliban impose,  and prefer a local council maintained by village elders.  This has been the way of life in this area for centuries,  the Talibans laws pre-invasion were not long standing.

Yeah, suddenly the afghan mujahideen are foreigners. There are more foreigners than afghans in afghanistan... Sure, many don't like sharia laws, but that doesn't imply they like the occupation and puppet regime. It might very well be so in Kabul, but most stil wear burkhas and act as if nothing had happened.

Comon, a youtube video by US-soldiers showing US-soldiers in Afghanistan? They talk and play around with some kids. But how many have they killed? Recently dozens of workers were killed by a bomb. And the US defend their action by saying they thought they were terrorists.

[TrevorOfCrete 0]

Comon, a youtube video by US-soldiers showing US-soldiers in Afghanistan? They talk and play around with some kids. But how many have they killed? Recently dozens of workers were killed by a bomb. And the US defend their action by saying they thought they were terrorists.

well its the only source i can use thats not 'tainted by the media'.  I dont think you understand what the Taliban quite are.  The Taliban are quite happy to keep hostage civilians inside buildings they know are about to be bombed.  The desired effect is rubbing off on you,  blame the US, blame the UK, when it comes down to the fact they are there risking there lives to help these people, the Taliban are using these peoples lives as a political tool in there ideological dillusions.  And this is not what my media wants me to think, that is becuase i know friends and family who have served in Afganistan and Iraq.

There is a compensation in place from the NATO forces in Afganistan for the desturction of property and death of relatives.  Not real compentsation for such a loss i know, but do you think the Taliban offer people money when they string up theree 6 year old daughter for nothing more than attending school? The fact you think they have less blood on there hands than ISAF is a absolute disgrace and you should try remembering some of the numorous civilian massicres these people are respncible for.

[JdB 151]

The fact you think they have less blood on there hands than ISAF is a absolute disgrace and you should try remembering some of the numerous civilian massacres these people are responsible for.

Look at for instance the perfect humanitarian treatment of Chechen civilians, but yet of course all of those videos were edited by the West too. Hard to see the truth when your eyes are fixed to one view by glue.

I can see that both the "fascists" (Abu Graib being one easy example) and the "socialists" (Afghanistan and Chechnya among others) have committed crimes against humanity on an industrial scale, however for someone as one-sided as you (Spokesperson) that is obviously impossible, those Chechen women and children had it coming, being so dangerous and all, probably looking at the Russian soldiers in the "wrong way".

Quote[/b] ]There are many Cubans who live in Miami. Mostly the well-to-do's, criminals and Batista supporters that fled when Cuba socialized their industry.

What's that? People fleeing Cuba on flimsy boats out of sheer happiness all the time? Yeah, it's a real paradise. My bad, those people in the boats are fascist actors or CIA agents (probably both), to make the entire world dislike the great humanitarian Castro

[baddo 0]

I was in a lecture discussing Latin America once upon a time. One of the lecturers was a young Finnish man who had a Finnish father and a Latin-American mother. He speaks fluent Finnish and fluent Spanish. This man told an interesting story about Cuba, a country he had visited some time before the lecture. He told in the lecture that he noticed something very weird during his stay of a couple of months in Havanna, Cuba. What did he notice? He noticed that people always seemed to know where he had been and what he had done even if he had not told anyone! No matter where he went, back in his neighbourhood there was always someone who knew where he had been. Was he free to go where-ever he wanted? No-one had restricted him. But people kept a close eye on him, and made sure that the information about where he had been and what he had been doing went forward. And between cities! How much forward the information went is a very good question.

So that is the kind of treatment an inessent foreigner gets in Cuba? I have to be honest and say that I certainly do not want to live in a country in which my actions are followed as closely as his were.

I don't know how much that has to do with socialism. But I can imagine that it has something to do with trying to protect their system. Trying to paranoidically protect their order-of-state. That is how the story sounds to me.

If you have studied even a little bit about the history of the Soviet Union, you should know that paranoidically protecting their order-of-state was a common method, business-as-usual, for many of their leaders to stay in power. Lots of people got prisoned or executed for no reason. No evidence was needed, it was enough for their leader to be paranoidic.

The fact that Cuba has had the same leader for decades does not play well with the idea of socialism. It certainly sounds more like a dictatorship to me. Same thing happened in USSR, and Cuba has gone the same route: a few people control the whole country for long periods of time. Maybe it is just me but I fail to see how the power is in the hands of the working people then, as people have claimed it is in socialism.

[Spokesperson 0]

Quote[/b] ]well its the only source i can use thats not 'tainted by the media'.

It's worse than liberal media. It's like showing the best pics of your photo-collection.

Quote[/b] ]The Taliban are quite happy to keep hostage civilians inside buildings they know are about to be bombed.

That's like 1% of all the cases. Shooting kids atop a humwee has nothing to do with hostages. And since when is it ok to bomb hostages? Do you bomb hostages in your own country too?

Quote[/b] ]I can see that both the "fascists" (Abu Graib being one easy example) and the "socialists" (Afghanistan and Chechnya among others) have committed crimes against humanity on an industrial scale, however for someone as one-sided as you (Spokesperson) that is obviously impossible, those Chechen women and children had it coming, being so dangerous and all, probably looking at the Russian soldiers in the "wrong way".

I don't see why you stick to Russia. You seem to think that Russia is socialist. It's capitalist, has a liberal market and liberal constitution. There's nothing socialist with that country at all. The US is more socialist than Russia. Looks like you're the one being ignorant and one-sided, assuming incorrect things.

Quote[/b] ]What's that? People fleeing Cuba on flimsy boats out of sheer happiness all the time? Yeah, it's a real paradise. My bad, those people in the boats are fascist actors or CIA agents (probably both), to make the entire world dislike the great humanitarian Castro

All the time? Haven't heard about people going by boat to the US from Cuba for years. However, this summer I heard that Haitians were doing that. I also hear that a lot of Mexicans cross the border. They "flee" too. Millions of europeans too, apparently. It's you who say Cuba is a paradise. I said Cuba is a third world country, but a remarkable one as it performs better than many developed nations. Besides americans aren't allowed to go to Cuba by their own government. Why should Cuba allow people to go to the US then? Shouldn't you demand the same of the US? Stick to the facts and what I write, not what you _think_ I think. Because your view of reality and socialism/communism/cuba is distorted.

Don't you have the ability to see beyond "your own" perspective?

Quote[/b] ]So that is the kind of treatment an inessent foreigner gets in Cuba? I have to be honest and say that I certainly do not want to live in a country in which my actions are followed as closely as his were.

I know a lot of people who have been in Cuba. They had no such stories to tell. Didn't he tell that they were eating their children and sharing their wives too? Tanks in every city block?

Quote[/b] ]If you have studied even a little bit about the history of the Soviet Union, you should know that paranoidically protecting their order-of-state was a common method, business-as-usual, for many of their leaders to stay in power. Lots of people got prisoned or executed for no reason. No evidence was needed, it was enough for their leader to be paranoidic.

The sole purpose of a state is to keep itself running by any means possible. There are no exceptions to this in history. But there's a big difference in what interests a state represents.

Quote[/b] ]

The fact that Cuba has had the same leader for decades does not play well with the idea of socialism. It certainly sounds more like a dictatorship to me. Same thing happened in USSR, and Cuba has gone the same route: a few people control the whole country for long periods of time. Maybe it is just me but I fail to see how the power is in the hands of the working people then, as people have claimed it is in socialism.

If that's what the people wants it's all along the lines with socialism. Castro has a huge amount of support in Cuba. Last time he was elected with 80% of the vote. The working people vote in Cuba.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2007-12-02-castro_N.htm?csp=34

By advocating socialism today nobody means sovietunion-style socialism. That was a system suited for that country at that time. Socialism today would mean political and economical democracy.

[TrevorOfCrete 0]

Quote[/b] ]The Taliban are quite happy to keep hostage civilians inside buildings they know are about to be bombed.

That's like 1% of all the cases. Shooting kids atop a humwee has nothing to do with hostages. And since when is it ok to bomb hostages? Do you bomb hostages in your own country too?

no you misunderstand. I mean during a ISAF - Taliban confrontation, small arms battle, the Taliban will purposly make the family stay where they are as they know ISAF's main responce is to call airstrikes. Dead civilians makes bad press for the NATO forces and there using that to there attemting to exploit that.

[Maddmatt 1]

In these clips Castro speaks in Harlem and talks about human rights, progess in cuba, the plan which made the internationalist cuban forces defeat forces of the south african apartheid regime in Africa among other things:

Castro defeated them? What BS. Since everyone is replying to all the other nonsense I'll reply to this one only.

Do some research on the facts instead of making them up. The Apartheid government wasn't defeated by military force, and definitely not by Cuba! Cuba didn't do any good for SA.

Hell, Apartheid may be over, but South Africa more messed up than ever.

Progress in Cuba Then why does the population risk their lives to escape?

South Africa may be like a warzone at times , but no way in hell would I want to live in Cuba.

[scary 0]

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]the existing order seems just fine, after all the UK is near the top so why mess with a winning formula?

Near the top? In what way? Like when people freeze to death every winter because they can't pay their electricity bills? Unemployment? Is that good?

People freezing to death? What are you wibbling about? Aside from the fact that the UK rarely gets cold enough for people to freeze to death, when it does get that cold it is nothing that a thick pair of socks and a wooly pully can't deal with. People did manage to survive in much colder climates long before the invention of central heating. And not one person doesn't receive enough money to pay reasonable utility bills.

The UK has one of the lowest unemployment rates in the world, there are approximately 600,000 job vacancies at any one time - enough for more than 1.6% of the working population. Anyone unemployed in the UK that is capable of working is unemployed out of choice, people aren't migrating from Eastern Europe for jobs that don't exist.

Quote[/b] ]Cuba is the only country in the world with sustainable development according to WWF.

Do you even know what that means?

Quote[/b] ]It has less child mortality rate than the US (that's a common measure of the healthcare standard).

And there are 27 countries with lower infant mortality rate that Cuba. All of them Western Democracies.

Quote[/b] ]Higher life expectancy than the US.

By 0.1 years, which is statistically meaningless. And there are 36 countries with higher life expectancy that Cuba - some of them US territories.

Quote[/b] ]No malaria and such diseases.

The Antarctic has no health care provision or economic system at all but has no Malaria. I don't think the presence of mosquitos is very relevant to how good a country's political system is.

Quote[/b] ]No homelessness and no exploitation. High economic growth the latest ten years too.

Instead of being homeless, people get to live in wriggly tin shacks. Great.

If Cuba's economic growth doubled in the next year it would still be a third word shit heap. And most of its growth is from tourism - Western tourists bringing their ill-gotten gains from exploiting the all the poor people of the world.

Quote[/b] ]Or why did Cuba manage to get environment friendly that quick and not any other countries?

Indigienous African tribes are environmentally friendly too. It comes from living in mud huts or shacks and having limited or no means of production.

Quote[/b] ]UK might be one of the biggest economies, yes. But normal people don't benefit from it. Those who own and rule the country do.

Those who own and rule the country? Back here on planet Earth, no one owns or rules the country. Last time I looked we ranked substantially higher than Utopian Cuba for standard of living and have one of the highest levels of social mobility.

Have you ever been outside your own little world of propaganda - or are you just a spoilt rich kid rebelling against daddy? Jealousy is such an ugly trait.

Quote[/b] ]Why do you have that high military spendning?

Because we have many global commitments and prefer expensive quality over cheap quantity.

Quote[/b] ]Well, it seems like you like to go to other countries and oppress, rob and burn.

Everyone needs a hobby.

Quote[/b] ]Little brother of the US!

We'd be its dad, as it happens.

Quote[/b] ]I don't understand how you can be proud of a country where people freeze to death, go unemployed, homeless, sell themselves for money etc while royals have castles that could fit tens of thousands of people.

Tens of thousands in a castle? I suppose if they were herded in like cattle and didn't mind sharing a bed.

Personally, I just can't move for all the frozen, unemployed, homeless people. Someone really should do something about them, they make the place look untidy.

Quote[/b] ]UK is a country where those who got more money get better education/healthcare and are guaranteed a better life.

I must have missed the bit were my income was asked for when using the NHS or schools.

Quote[/b] ]So when did the USSR [...] do that?

When they invaded, robbed and oppressed the satellite states to provide Mother Russia with a really big human shield.

I've heard that Gulags weren't that comfortable either.

Quote[/b] ]Did Robin Hood oppress rob and burn in your opinion too?

Erm, yes. What with the whole 'robbing from the rich to give to the poor' thing being a fairy tale. Not being able to separate fantasy from reality happens to you a lot, doesn't it?

Quote[/b] ]You like monarchy?

Yes, they look pretty. We tried the whole Republican thing once - we didn't like it. Rather a lot of countries have done the same. Why do you think so many independant countries of the former Empire have retained the Monarchy?

Quote[/b] ]That's what your military and country wants you to think.

I've been there more than once, sweety pie. I've spoken with Afghans. You haven't.

Quote[/b] ]Your army has control over the capital only.

We're tri-service, if you don't mind and have control over the whole of the north.

Quote[/b] ]The resistance movement is growing, but has little chance against your helicopters and tanks.

The resistance is being steadily pushed towards Pakistan, and we don't have that many helicopters there. We have even less tanks, somewhere in the region of none. Besides, it's my war-face and 1,000 yard stare that frightens them off.

Quote[/b] ]Do you bomb hostages in your own country too?

We don't often have hostages, it being quite pleasant here (apart from corpses of the frozen, unemployed, homeless, of course).

Did you go to the same school of propaganda as Comical Ali?

[Spokesperson 0]

In these clips Castro speaks in Harlem and talks about human rights, progess in cuba, the plan which made the internationalist cuban forces defeat forces of the south african apartheid regime in Africa among other things:

Castro defeated them? What BS. Since everyone is replying to all the other nonsense I'll reply to this one only.

Do some research on the facts instead of making them up. The Apartheid government wasn't defeated by military force, and definitely not by Cuba! Cuba didn't do any good for SA.

Hell, Apartheid may be over, but South Africa more messed up than ever.

Progress in Cuba Then why does the population risk their lives to escape?

South Africa may be like a warzone at times , but no way in hell would I want to live in Cuba.

You should listen to that speech. Castro speaks about how west "forgot" about this conflict.

Also, pay attention to what I write. I don't say Cuba defeated the South African apartheid regime. I say they defeated their forces. They stopped the south african advance in Africa.

Cuba and Che Guevara played a major part in freeing Angola and Namibia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_Border_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angolan_Civil_War

If you still don't believe me look at this clip where Mandela thanks Cuba:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zcTziSklpY

Cuba helped Mandela. The US helped the rascists.

US boycotts Cuba, but didn't boycott rascist South Africa... Why? What's with freedom and democracy? These are the facts. Not some shitty liberal us propaganda.

[Maddmatt 1]

Cuba helped Mandela. The US helped the rascists.

US boycotts Cuba, but didn't boycott rascist South Africa... Why? What's with freedom and democracy? These are the facts. Not some shitty liberal us propaganda.

While I'm against Apartheid, this country is more messed up than ever under the leadership of the ANC. Corruption, stupidity...

So Cuba killed South Africans who were forced to join the army, so that South Africa could suffer under another idiotic government that has it's own ways of screwing things up.

So f**k you Cuba and co.

[Spokesperson 0]

Every year you hear about hundreds of people freezing to death in the UK due to unpaid electricity bills.

Quote[/b] ]Do you even know what that means?

(about sustainable development)

? Do you know what "fact" means?

Here you can read them:

http://assets.panda.org/downloads/living_planet_report.pdf

Page 19.

More info:

http://www.ecosherpa.com/news....lopment

Quote[/b] ]And there are 27 countries with lower infant mortality rate that Cuba. All of them Western Democracies.

Wow, what an argument. 27 Developed countries with strong economies do better than the third world country cuba. Why not mention the fact that Cuba has no space program? How odd. Most be due to socialism.

How many perform worse? What about Haiti Mexico the superpower US? The rest of south america? Cuba performs better than them all.

Quote[/b] ]By 0.1 years, which is statistically meaningless. And there are 36 countries with higher life expectancy that Cuba - some of them US territories.

Isn't a higher life expectancy what you would expect when you compare a rich country to a poor former colony and later gambling den? Somehow Cuba outperforms the US anyway.

Quote[/b] ]The Antarctic has no health care provision or economic system at all but has no Malaria. I don't think the presence of mosquitos is very relevant to how good a country's political system is.

Yeah, the antarctic. Let's skip the comparison cuba vs developed countries, cuba vs superpowers, and talk about cuba vs antarctica! No malaria, no people either. They must have a splendid system there.

Why has cuba no malaria when all surrounding third world countries have? Antarctica is not even close.

Quote[/b] ]Instead of being homeless, people get to live in wriggly tin shacks. Great.

If Cuba's economic growth doubled in the next year it would still be a third word shit heap. And most of its growth is from tourism - Western tourists bringing their ill-gotten gains from exploiting the all the poor people of the world.

No, cuba is unique in South America. People have real homes, no shacks. Living in a shack is like being homeless. You assume things you know nothing about. Yeah, 10% growth is because of tourism mr expert. Just like in the UK then...

Quote[/b] ]Indigienous African tribes are environmentally friendly too. It comes from living in mud huts or shacks and having limited or no means of production.

They are, but apart from cuba they have no production, and a much lower standard of living. In Cuba they live better than in most of South America _and_ got a sustainable development. How can that be? Maybe because the society is controlled by needs and not profits?

Quote[/b] ]Those who own and rule the country? Back here on planet Earth, no one owns or rules the country. Last time I looked we ranked substantially higher than Utopian Cuba for standard of living and have one of the highest levels of social mobility.

Have you ever been outside your own little world of propaganda - or are you just a spoilt rich kid rebelling against daddy? Jealousy is such an ugly trait.

I recently read about "third way" Sweden. 1% of the pop own 40%. They have no influence? Corporations in the US are just kindergartens? No power? No political power? Yeah I'm a spoilt rich jealous kid rebel because I think Cuba is better than other countries and that a better democratic world is possible and that isn't based on profits.

Quote[/b] ]Because we have many global commitments and prefer expensive quality over cheap quantity.

Sure Hitler had a global commitment too. You're breaking international law and nobody told you to play world sheriff or deputy.

Quote[/b] ]We'd be its dad, as it happens.

Yea, you're the boss. US is just your puppet.

I got to stop there as I have no time. If you want I can comment the rest later.

Quote[/b] ]Did you go to the same school of propaganda as Comical Ali?

Yes. Touché. You won.

[Spokesperson 0]

Quote[/b] ]So Cuba killed South Africans who were forced to join the army, so that South Africa could suffer under another idiotic government that has it's own ways of screwing things up.

Yea, just like how the allies killed germans in the ww2...

[Maddmatt 1]

Quote[/b] ]So Cuba killed South Africans who were forced to join the army, so that South Africa could suffer under another idiotic government that has it's own ways of screwing things up.

Yea, just like how the allies killed germans in the ww2...

Nazis mass murdered Jews and invaded many other countries, destroying their armies and killing innocent people. South Africa didn't.

Hell, Cuba is a country where people risk their lives to escape on little boats. I never heard of South Africans taking such risks to escape.

Really, comparing South Africa to the German Nazi government is sick. Sure Apartheid was bad, but things aren't much better for most people now.

And comparing Cuba to the Allies? What a joke. A communist dictator that wont let his own people escape. That's more comparable to the Nazis.

Edit: And SA posed no threat to countries like Cuba.

[Spokesperson 0]

Quote[/b] ]Nazis mass murdered Jews and invaded many other countries, destroying their armies and killing innocent people. South Africa didn't.

South Africa didn't? What the h*ll where they doing in Angola and Namibia? Fighting terrorism and promoting democracy? Probably. They weren't shooting blacks in the streets in their own country? No, no. Go on defend your commonwealth partner and stick to your petty nationalism.

Yea now blame Cuba in the next sentence. That's "your" instant reaction. Funny:

Quote[/b] ]Hell, Cuba is a country where people risk their lives to escape on little boats.

More people go to the US from mexico or Haiti. Haven't heard about cuban boats in a very long time. And besides developed South Africa with its minerals gold and diamonds is one of the richest countries in the world. You can't compare the standards of living in a just way. During the apartheid loads of people were shot dead, imprisoned, tortured. Was that good? Well according to the US and UK it was ok as they supported that country. They sold arms and traded with open arms. However they don't support Cuba where no prisoners of war were executed in the US bay of pigs invasion even. And where no protesters have been fired at, ever. Apart from in the UK and US. In fact, Cuba is more democratic than the US and South Africa, it's more free and human rights are respected in a much higher extent. But that's nothing you hear about in anticuban media. The world is always how you perceive it. Really. No complexity.

Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and Thailand are some examples of allies of the west that are pure dictatorships. But, there are no sanctions towards them. I rarely read any criticism about those countries. Just a little while when something happens _sometimes_. But I read about Cuba every day almost. It's all about economy, not "democracy" or "freedom".

Quote[/b] ]And comparing Cuba to the Allies? What a joke. A communist dictator that wont let his own people escape. That's more comparable to the Nazis.

Then tell me why US people aren't allowed to flee to Cuba, per US law? What makes Cuba worse then? Hipocrisy.

Quote[/b] ]Edit: And SA posed no threat to countries like Cuba.

It did a while when they had nuclear weapons. But there was no threat before Cuba got involved in Africa. Cuba helped in solidarity with the oppressed peoples of Namibia and Angola. Those countries were losing the war against the racists. So internationalist Cuba went down there, fought off the South Africans and liberated those countries. They fought imperialism and colonialism and won. It's different from occupying and invading countries a la Vietnam or Iraq. It's different from supporting racists and imperialists in South Africa.

Besides Castro is less of a dictator than Bush. Castro has a much higher support by his own people and in whole South America.

Quote[/b] ]Really, comparing South Africa to the German Nazi government is sick. Sure Apartheid was bad, but things aren't much better for most people now.

You wrote this:

Quote[/b] ]So Cuba killed South Africans who were forced to join the army, so that South Africa could suffer under another idiotic government that has it's own ways of screwing things up.

I tried to tell you that anti-cuban argument is nonsense. It's your liberal reflex. The key word is _forced_. The nazi soldiers were forced too. All soldiers are forced to fight in any war. You're sorry because Cubans killed South African soldiers. Why aren't you sorry that the allies killed german soldiers? Or egyptian soldiers in Suez? Or vietnamese in Vietnam? Or nicaraguans in Nicaragua?

Why is it bad that cubans unselfishly stopped a rascist advance down in Africa? Are you rascist yourself or are you just too deep into your anticubanism that you can't see the big picture and the meaning of what you're saying? But no, the fault is with the cubans according to you. Because they shot south african soldiers! In a war!

[Maddmatt 1]

Quote[/b] ]Nazis mass murdered Jews and invaded many other countries, destroying their armies and killing innocent people. South Africa didn't.

South Africa didn't? What the h*ll where they doing in Angola and Namibia? Fighting terrorism and promoting democracy? Probably. They weren't shooting blacks in the streets in their own country? No, no. Go on defend your commonwealth partner and stick to your petty nationalism.

Huh? You're saying they mass murdered people?

You think those countries are much better off now?

Namibia I guess, but Angola?

Quote[/b] ]During the apartheid loads of people were shot dead...

And how is that different to now?

Quote[/b] ]Then tell me why US people aren't allowed to flee to Cuba, per US law? What makes Cuba worse then? Hipocrisy.

Never heard of anyone being killed for trying.

Quote[/b] ]And besides developed South Africa with its minerals gold and diamonds is one of the richest countries in the world.

Too bad hardly any of that money goes into important things like the police force.

SA being rich means nothing if government is corrupt and people suffer from high crime and widespread poverty.

Look here. second highest murder-per-capita in the world.

And here. Top of the list.

And considering that only a small % of the population has cars: here.

And why are hardly any of them in jail.

[billybob2002 0]

Besides Castro is less of a dictator than Bush. Castro has a much higher support by his own people and in whole South America.

Do you even know the basic definition of a dictator? President Bush doesn't have all the power; therefore, President Bush isn't a dictator.

Quote[/b] ]

It did a while when they had nuclear weapons. But there was no threat before Cuba got involved in Africa. Cuba helped in solidarity with the oppressed peoples of Namibia and Angola. Those countries were losing the war against the racists. So internationalist Cuba went down there, fought off the South Africans and liberated those countries. They fought imperialism and colonialism and won. It's different from occupying and invading countries a la Vietnam or Iraq. It's different from supporting racists and imperialists in South Africa.

Cuba and South Africa militarily interfered in the Angolan Civil War. Cuba didn't liberate Angola; the Cubans supported a side (MPLA) of that war. Cuba withdrawing from Angola allowed Namibia to become independent.

The United States didn't invade and occupy "Vietnam."

Quote[/b] ]

Then tell me why US people aren't allowed to flee to Cuba, per US law? What makes Cuba worse then? Hipocrisy.

If an American wants to flee to Cube, he/she can do so. There are examples of this but it is rare.

Quote[/b] ]

Haven't heard about cuban boats in a very long time.

You can hear about it time to time on American news. Very cool how people can transform cars into floatable rafts/boats.

Quote[/b] ]

In fact, Cuba is more democratic than the US and South Africa, it's more free and human rights are respected in a much higher extent.

Sources? Communist and Socialist websites don't count.