Wind Turbines For or against & why?

[Baff1 0]

Not worried about the roof space, I've got loads of it. (That's why I've already done the maths).

But 45,000 EU?

How many KWH have you sold back so far?

That money could earn you 8.5 EU a day just sitting in the bank.

(Keep in mind that with compound intrest the value of your investment rises everyday too, as long as you don't spend it all).

You would have to sell back 17 Kwh's per day to service the money. That's before you make any profit, and assuming you paid for it in cash not on bank loan.

How many did you sell back yesterday? During the summer season?

(How long have you had it, and what income has it generated you so far, please).

[Balschoiw 0]

The electricity generated is sold 100 percent as I get more money for sold electricity than I pay for electricity ( 100.000 roof program in germany).

I can give you the numbers for the last year:

Produced electricity: 3628 KWh

Received money: 12.749 Euro

Insurance and costs for maintenance are already included.

On a sidenote: As I operate as a "company" when selling the electricity I can claim 5% of the price I paid for the installation for an annual tax-cut for the next 20 years.

[Baff1 0]

Yeah there are tax breaks for it here too. I don't know exactly what they are yet, but I know they are available.

Thanks for your figures Balsch.  Very intresting.

Any chance of a breakdown on your installation costs. How much was hardware, how much was getting it wired into the grid, installing the meter etc.

For example, you presumably only need one meter no matter how many panels you use, and only need one connection to the national grid, so the more you fit the greater your profit potential.

So am I right in thinking you are getting 4% return on your investment?

[Balschoiw 0]

From what I know germany has the most advanced program for broad use of photovoltaic systems in europe and they did a lot to get people install those or buy shares of bigger installations in case they have no own roof at hand. The guarenteed price for selling the electricity is the crucial factor.

I don´t know if you have comparable programs in the UK but if you have, I would contact offices to see what you can get.

About your questions :

Here´s the breakdown

- 36 modules Sanyo HIP 215 32.976 Euro

- 2 Transformers (Wechselrichter, dunno engl Expr.) 3020 Euro

- Montage material (Alu-rails, cables, screws, etc) 1374,66 Euro

Delivery included.

I got 12 modules per row and 3 rows overall.

The montage itself is pretty simple and the energy provider does the connection for feeding electricity into public net.

[klavan 0]

@Balschoiw

Are those panels solid enough to resist a medium size hail storm? Or is some kind of protection needed?

Klavan

[Balschoiw 0]

They look pretty solid and just in case some get damaged due to heavy weather or a tree falling on the roof or such, I have an insurance for them.

[Baff1 0]

They have comparable programs in the U.K., but it's still not financially viable.

However, I do think it's worth keeping an eye on.

I think there is room for the efficiency of these panels to improve and also the cost to come down as they become more mass market and subsidised.

But right right now, it's still a joke.

As long as I get a better return keeping the money in the bank, it's not a serious concern.

Even with a 5% a year of your installation cost subsidy(assuming you can trust your government not to raise taxes for 20 years in a row), that only takes you to a 9% return on your money.

I'm used to 30 or 40% average a year. I can't afford to make so little. I'd have to go back to work.

In terms of protection, I think they would actually protect my rooves to some extent.

Lower the amount of moss growing, protect the tiles from blowing off, no need to repaint the corrugated iron underneath etc.

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

They have comparable programs in the U.K., but it's still not financially viable.

However, I do think it's worth keeping an eye on.

I think there is room for the efficiency of these panels to improve and also the cost to come down as they become more mass market and subsidised.

But right right now, it's still a joke.

As long as I get a better return keeping the money in the bank, it's not a serious concern.

Even with a 5% a year of your installation cost subsidy(assuming you can trust your government not to raise taxes for 20 years in a row), that only takes you to a 9% return on your money.

I'm used to 30 or 40% average a year. I can't afford to make so little. I'd have to go back to work.

In terms of protection, I think they would actually protect my rooves to some extent.

Lower the amount of moss growing, protect the tiles from blowing off, no need to repaint the corrugated iron underneath etc.

What are you talking about`?

He will profit within 5 years compared to having them in the bank.

[Iron+Cross 0]

you want to try defending a flawd argument carry on, personally if some one went to the toruble of trying to help me & correct my understanding i would pay a little gratitude.

However I will have some Trade prices for you all. probably after monday though.

Quote[/b] ]@ Iron cross, my freezer is 200 litre as is my fridge. I don't live alone or in town near to any shops.

The reason I mentioned freezers as my example, was because I watched a show about an African medical centre. They had ben donated solar power and a medecine fridge.

Despite strong sunlight lasting for more than 6 hours a day they were unable to run their fridge.

Well than you would need 1 more Pannel to be safe. but it would power that nicely, although it depends on how old the fridge is, & its Draw. (older not as efficiant)

As for those Biomedical Freezers that went to afrika maybe they were made in U.S or U.K Because Finland has the worlds best reputation for making Biomedical Freezers that DONT break down within there working life span, & that Run with Finish designed Pannels.

Quote[/b] ]2x 200w Sanyo's will cost me 1500 pounds.

well found it for 942.50 ex postage using current exchange rates.

although like i said its not a great pannel & its rather exspensive, You wouldent pay near that if your a smart buyer.

As for the kettle reel well you are getting desperate lol,

& it must be a crap one...

But if you Like doing maths, I suggest you try a more realistic slant, as you Are using a slant, & its a rather negative one, when your sourcing your number.

If you dont like solar pannels for some reason just say, as I dont like Wind turbines & its not for any Financial reasons although they are rather exspensive, it just they mess up my living, in lots of little ways & in some Big ways.

However here is somthing that you can chew on.

Wind versus PV cells.

So Solar 1st.

thats about 6 hours (on winter day), 6x 200Watts = 1200x2 Watts = 2400W generated within a 24hour cycle.

= 876,000 watts a year

& that would be 942.50 GBP (if we are forced to use this Currency) plus tax, ex postage from an Arazona Supplier, (fastest price search i could find can get ALOT better & closer to E.U) + an extra 500 For battery's Relays Cables, a power control etc.

So thats about 1442.50 GBP Ready to be installed.

for 20 years thats about 72.13 GBP per year at

876,000. Watts of power over 365 days.

TOTAL =8.23 pence per Watt  Taking it at its NET worst 6hrs daylight per 24hrs all year round.

(ok i never did this calculation b4 im hopeing this is cheaper than wind power lol... but the disruption caused with turbines outweighs solar for me.)

Wind Turbine Power.

These are  2x 200 watt wind turbine's from China so as longs its not made in UK it will probably last for the 20 years stated,  hehe.

Wind Turbine

So lets base it Similarly to the Solar Pannel figure, 1 200W trubine has a start speed of 3ms (wind speed) but lets take it that your operating it say randomly in.... Gainsborough UK

SK 825 898  thats the Grid Coordinates from OS

use that here to calculate the avrage wind speed in Meters per second. (Read the page thorugh) Avrage Wind speed Calculator UK

So take at its worse case scenario using government figures (UK) we can call it 5ms our trubine will get on AVRAGE if you live there.(Notice im giving it a head start by not reducing it)

Now im going to borrow a precalculated sum as.. Im not touching it lol.

Quote[/b] ]Power available in wind (in Watts)

=

½ * air density swept area wind velocity3**

where

air density

=

1.23 kg per cubic meter at sea level (1.0 here in Colorado)

and

swept area is in square meters

wind velocity is in meters per second If we work the formula for a 5-foot diameter turbine in a 10 mph wind:

5 feet = 1.524 m swept area = pi * r2 = 1.8241m2 wind Speed = 10 mph = 4.4704 m/s So

Power available (Watts) = ½ * 1.23 * 1.8241 * 4.47043

=

100.22 Watts

So lets call it 1x105 Watts per hour & were being nice.

(Please note the Specs of the generator qouted above & the one used in the sum are Similar).

It Costs about 470.00 GBP each  plus Tax, Ex Postage.

That comes to 940.00 GBP ex postage, + 500 for batteries & misc. = 1,440 GBP, Ex Postage.

they would produce 210W per hour x 20 hours out of 24hrs thats 4200W per 24hrs with 4 hours of wind at 3ms or lower,  (again thats being nice) depandant on where you live, & it has to be a 3ms wind to actuly start turning let alone charge.

= 1,533,000 Watts per year.

= 1,440 GBP, Ex Postage. GBP Ready to be installed.

for 20 years thats about 72 GBP per year

TOTAL =4.7 pence per Watt  Taking it at its NET Avrage of 5ms 20 hours operation per 24hrs all year round.

So lets compare thats ...... oh oh no,

ah crap.. well there loud!

 & they are ugly.

p.s could some one double check my maths?

P.p.S I will show you its cheaper when i get those trade prices for some quality PV cells.

[-ZG-BUZZARD 0]

You're also forgetting something very simple... instead of warming up a kettle with electricity to make tea, I'd either go for a mirror system or a focus lense... Works much more efficiently AND uses very cheap utensils!!!  

Edit: And before you go jump on me, for the complete alternative, at night, when there is no sun, just rig it to hang above the fire in the fire place... Also should work wonders...

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]What are you talking about`?

He will profit within 5 years compared to having them in the bank.

Even sooner as I can cut my tax in relation to the investment aswell.

I do see nothing wrong with having 12.000 Euro added to my bankaccount for the next 20 years in comparison to have 45.000 Euro on the bank that would certainly not create a total of raw 240.000 plus bank benefit of around another 16.000 Euro within 20 years.

I don´t have to pay taxes on the money I earn with the installation as it´s around 3000 Euro below the limit for companies.

Quote[/b] ]

I'm used to 30 or 40% average a year.

That seems to be pretty high. Unless your money goes into high risk deals that always pose the risk to loose your money and leave you with a debt aswell I couldn´t think of a low-risk investment that would grant you a reward of 30-40 percent annual.

Besides that. I am producing green-energy. Not such a bad thing imo.

[Iron+Cross 0]

Quote[/b] ] mirror system or a focus lense... Works much more efficiently AND uses very cheap utensils!!!

lol Nice, although i thought they only worked in deserts & or high altitude?

[-ZG-BUZZARD 0]

IIRC, you could use a focus lense anywhere, and even set dry wood on fire, provided there's sunlight...

[Iron+Cross 0]

cool must have a hunt for one.

p.s it was a fluke the prices between solar pannels & those turbines turned out so similar.

but im shure they will even out if not PV i feal shoudl slightly overtake Turbines, but lets see.

Hey do you think thats like a Retail price fixing thing? to keep them similar?

[Baff1 0]

@ Iron cross,

A standard kettle requires between 1.5 and 2.5 KW to boil.

Quote[/b] ]= 1,533,000 Watts per year.

= 1,440 GBP, Ex Postage. GBP Ready to be installed.

for 20 years thats about 72 GBP per year

Which is 17 GBP per year less than what I would receive from putting the same sum of money in the bank.

If I install your solar array it will cost me 17 pounds a year more than if I just sit here and pick my nose.

This is not profit. It is a loss.

[Baff1 0]

They have comparable programs in the U.K., but it's still not financially viable.

However, I do think it's worth keeping an eye on.

I think there is room for the efficiency of these panels to improve and also the cost to come down as they become more mass market and subsidised.

But right right now, it's still a joke.

As long as I get a better return keeping the money in the bank, it's not a serious concern.

Even with a 5% a year of your installation cost subsidy(assuming you can trust your government not to raise taxes for 20 years in a row), that only takes you to a 9% return on your money.

I'm used to 30 or 40% average a year. I can't afford to make so little. I'd have to go back to work.

In terms of protection, I think they would actually protect my rooves to some extent.

Lower the amount of moss growing, protect the tiles from blowing off, no need to repaint the corrugated iron underneath etc.

What are you talking about`?

He will profit within 5 years compared to having them in the bank.

No, he won't.

He will pay it off in 30 years.

And only if the government does not change it's tax system for 30 years in a row.

[Dwarden 1125]

atm solar energy is not worth it ...

i mean in sense production cost, effectivity, mainteance and lifetime and unstable (nights, clouds, rain, snow,fog)...

and i stay behind that even since South Korean science group finalized 10-20 times cheaper solar panels than are now based over polymers (if i remember it right) ...

in mass scale they should appear around 2010-12

wind energy is better on this but still unstable source (no wind, too strong wind) ...

[Baff1 0]

I sell the power generated at a guaranteed price of 0,51 Euro per KWh for the next 20 years.

Quote[/b] ]

I can give you the numbers for the last year:

Produced electricity: 3628 KWh

Received money: 12.749 Euro

Insurance and costs for maintenance are already included.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]What are you talking about`?

He will profit within 5 years compared to having them in the bank.

Even sooner as I can cut my tax in relation to the investment aswell.

I do see nothing wrong with having 12.000 Euro added to my bankaccount for the next 20 years in comparison to have 45.000 Euro on the bank that would certainly not create a total of raw 240.000 plus bank benefit of around another 16.000 Euro within 20 years.

I don´t have to pay taxes on the money I earn with the installation as it´s around 3000 Euro below the limit for companies.

Quote[/b] ]

I'm used to 30 or 40% average a year.

That seems to be pretty high. Unless your money goes into high risk deals that always pose the risk to loose your money and leave you with a debt aswell I couldn´t think of a low-risk investment that would grant you a reward of 30-40 percent annual.

Besides that. I am producing green-energy. Not such a bad thing imo.  

How does 3628 KWh per year at 0.51 Euro's/ KWh work out as 12,000 Euro's a year?

Sorry but your maths is wrong. It's out by a factor of ten.

When you said, 12.749 Euro's, did you really mean thirteen Euro's?

Or do you mean 1274.9 Euro's?

Or are you trying to suggest that 3628 x 0.51 = 12,749 (+maintenance and insurance).

Perhaps you should take a second look at that cheque you've got there.

I've given you two examples of low risk investments that will bring me in 30-40% within 3 years.

British Petroleum and Yen.

Yen will do it in six months. BP will do it in three years, less if they bomb Iran.

Neither are high risk investments.

I've never been in debt. I'm a lender, not a borrower.

As for producing green energy, you're right, it's not such a bad thing, but you could just put the money in the bank, and give the intrest to charity.

That wouldn't be such a bad thing either.

[-ZG-BUZZARD 0]

Baff1, I'm literally baffled that you're not even considering the options I've presented you... I have no idea how much a focal lense or mirror set costs... or some wooden logs for the fire-place... but perhaps they're cheaper than what you pay in terms of electricity... at least for your kettle!

[Baff1 0]

Three of the rooms in my house are heated by a wood burner.

My aunt has a copper coil on her roof that connects to her water tank. In summer it provides enough hot water for a shower and to do the dishes.

It cost her 60 pounds to buy and a mate installed it for her for nothing.

But as a little tip, if you plan on bathing regularly you should get some more efficient and labour saving device to heat water.

Stinky boys don't get laid.

[Journeyman 0]

Many parts of Europe could suffer a major ice storm this winter and many electricity pylons will be buckled with massive loss of power to millions for weeks on end! BP shares will have plummeted due to Russia extracting new supplies from the Artic and the Yen will have tumbled and taken much of the economy with it due to the long expected mega quake in Tokyo sinking vast areas of industrial land back into the sea through liquefaction.

I’ll be having tea with Balschoiw and watching lots of dirty videos! Haha!

Actually I will be in the Philippines erecting my own solar array. If money were my sole reason for doing things then I would probably just sit at the computer surfing the markets. To me life is much more than that, and finding solutions to problems and alternative ways of doing things that aid some degree of self-reliance are far more fulfilling. The world may not be doomed as stated. But if it was (and these things can and will happen) I know whose house I would rather be in!

[Baff1 0]

BP shares have already plummeted due to the Russian nationalisation of one of their oil fields.

They have also plummeted due to the oil leaks in Alaska.

Buy low.

If the Yen falls further, buy more.

If the Japanese economy collapses, buy as much as you can. You won't get many opportunities like that in one lifetime. Start preparing for it now.

Crisis, disaters, stock market crashes, that's when if you are lucky enough or smart enough to have soem cash you will make big money.

Buy low and always keep a good stock of cash ready for those bargains.

Do not, spunk it on trendy solar panels and little windmills on top of your house.

Like every other no hope green fantasist out there.

Dare to be different.

If you had bought 45,000 Euro's worth of airline stocks on Sept 12th, you could have been a millionaire by now.

Come the end of the world, my house is still going to be here. It's been here for the last thousand years and it's going to be here for the next. When solar power becomes a smart decision I will have hundreds of square metres of it.

But if it never does, I never will.

But it's fully booked so I won't be crying when you forsake me for Balschoiw's place.

Enjoy your dirty video's.

As for me, I can afford the real thing.

And the girls love that instead of owning solar panels, I choose to have fresh flowers in every room daily and Belgian chocolates permanently in the fridge all year round and a cleaning lady.

All with the money I saved buying regular leccy off the leccy board like everyone else.

Money isn't my sole purpose for doing things.

It is one of the tools that allows me to do more.

I don't want to spend my whole life as a wage slave, or even vacuuming my carpet and cleaning my toilets.

Invest your money wisely and there is a good chance that you won't have to.

[Balschoiw 0]

My bad, was at work yesterday. My output is 27000 kWh per anno, The segmented output (per string of modules) is ~ 30 Kwp. I have 4 strings a 9 modules. One string produces 7,74 KWp.

And yes, I know what my cheque says. That´s actually the only thing I really care about.

I have the calculations here on the table up to year 2026:

Total raw income minus insurance and maintenance costs with keeping the degrading factor of panels is mind:

245.965 Euro including tax

plus

94.887 Euro from the bank on the money with a 3% rate

That makes a total of

340.852 Euro generated up to the year 2026

This calculation includes a 2% rise in maintenance costs yearly and the 300 Euros per year for insurance.

I guess it would be best if you contact a vendor or a person at your local energy office to see what you can get from a comparable plant in the UK.

On a sidenote: I am living quite well. I have two houses, 3 cars, one for me, one for my partner and one for fun only, I go on holidays for a total of 1.5 months per year, preferably to asia and indonesia for diving, we happen to go out for dinner at least twice a week, I like to buy nice watches from time to time and I´m following my plan to be finished with working at the age of 48. For me that sounds like a plan. BTW, Belgian chocolate is overrated Try it with Zotter chocolate from Austria, they have some really addicitive stuff like chilli chocolate, Grammelnussen, etc.

I guess we are already leading the thread a bit offtopic Baff1, so maybe we can get it on via PM incase you got further questions.

[Journeyman 0]

Enjoy your dirty video's.

As for me, I can afford the real thing.

And the girls love that instead of owning solar panels, I choose to have fresh flowers in every room daily and Belgian chocolates permanently in the fridge all year round and a cleaning lady.

Good for you! Fortunately I have never had to pay for it in my entire life!    Oh and happily married for 9 years I doubt I ever will!

Thanks for your stock market tips though I will bear it in mind. But I doubt very much that I am gonna be bothered giving up my exciting, creative and constructive life for one of stocks and shares! I'd hire a stockbroker for that fulfilment!  

Money is great to have I agree. It enables so many things in life, but I cannot value everything that I enjoy and live for with money alone. Forgive me Baff1 but you are starting to sound like my accountant!

I think we need to get back on topic though! Solar panels and wind turbines might not be the most economically viable energy solution ATM, but they do offer an alternative means to our dwindling (and polluting) fossil fuel supply. They also give independence in power outages if you have them on your home. And yes, like with everything else you need to do lots of research first before getting conned by false statistics, but these things can and do have their place.

I know that you don’t believe in global warming/climate change in ANY form from reading your previous posts, so I am not going to even suggest that there might need to be alternative reasons for moving to more sustainable energy solutions! I am sceptical also that humans are the sole cause of this ‘uncertain’ warming. Nor can I be bothered to debate it any further in these forums! But I have heard and read (and seen) enough for me to be at least somewhat concerned.

I for one I am not just going to debunk every new idea that could turn out to be a useful contribution to at least part of our upcoming energy crisis or climate issues simply on account of initial cost effectiveness. Maybe I just love adventure and experimentation too much!

I once asked my accountant: “how can you sit down all day long, day after day sifting through slips of paper and tapping on a calculator?†He replied to me: “Well I’m totally unimaginative, uncreative and useless with my hands!† 

[Iron+Cross 0]

well said about the money aspect Red kite, I was going to say sonmthing similar, but you coverd it well.

& I do feal the Money aspect is a little of topic, although we wouldent have learned about that Option, as it sounds a better Option than Solar & Wind for Urban Inhabitants, as longs the energy they are buying from the proffits aint being bought from Wind turbines that are forced on the rural people.

As for Wind being a better option than Solar, well not entierly true, did you Read the Government website about wind speeds in UK on avrage? they differ greatly some places only have a mild breez for months on end! that would get the Wind turbine up to Start speed let alone being charging at 200watts. it would be greatly reduced.

On alot of the land mass in the Uk you would be better off with Solar when you compare the prices, & those were VERY pricy solar pannels that were 2-3rd class. so the gap of per watt will be less, when i egt the trade prices for thsoe pannels.

where as you can for the next few billion years rely on the suns energy, to be relativly constant. & Cloud cover dosent stop solar pannels from charging, its about ambient light aswell, only the realy old pannels were heavily affected if they couldent get Direct blazing sunlight, the new ones only need AMBIENT light! & you will still get a good charge.