Damage Model

[Uranium - 235 0]

... PLEASE make the damage handling of vehicles a lot more realistic.

Of note:

1) RPG's one-shotting anything that isn't a tank. RPGs don't work that way. I'm unsure of the destructive capacity of the LAW, but I doubt a hit to the armored parts of a Stryker would cause the whole thing to just erupt instantly.

2) HMMWVs and other light vehicles being deathtraps. It's entirely too common to have half the passengers sniped out of the car by light arms fire half a kilometer away. I'm sorry, are we driving around with the windows down? These things aren't exactly heavily armored, but they can withstand light arms fire to a fair degree and keep the passengers safe. This goes DOUBLE for the mounted weapon on the roof. FAR too vulnerable.

3) Helicopters taking damage from light arms fire. To make matters worse, it's very common to have a quick burst of enemy AK fire somehow rupture a fuel line, and the helicopter is effectively destroyed. That is ridiculous. Helicopters not only do not work that way, but they are DESIGNED to be resilient to small arms fire. Additionally, by show of hands, how many times have you seen your gunner killed by someone shooting at you from a mile away? Seriously, I feel safer on foot then in any vehicle in ArmA.

Vehicle damage handling is the most asinine part of ArmA by far. A Stryker can be destroyed by .50cal fire, for god's sakes. Mk19s would do absolutely NOTHING to a tank except ruin the paint. Seriously. Don't do this crap again.

[Kabuto 0]

My two cents.

A easy (half) solution for the today damage model, would be more armor for all vehicles.

And adjust anti vehicles weapons.

E.g.:

If we say, every vehicle get 3-5 time more armor.

Small arms damage values could stay untouched, only inf. AT/AA wepons would need more hit damage.

And of course vehicles weapons (tank guns, rockets and so on) need to adjust then.

So small arms fire has much less effect on e.g. helicopters.

[xnodunitx 0]

Ditto to above post, we'v been testing the mas AH-64's lately and its armor is only 150 yet its a hell of alot more resilient to small arms fire, although you still have to be careful around the heavy stuff naturally. I don't know what the AH-1Z's armor is but right now lets say the abrams is 900 and humvee's are 50, the cobra seems more like a humvee to me.

[pmd 0]

the game is based on hitpoints. everything can be destroyed by everything.

i've taken out a m1a1 with 4 full mags from the saw.

saw = 8 damage

rgp = 600 damage

at4 = 500 damage

50.cal = 13 damage

i don't know the about of hp it takes to take out a vehicle but everything can be destroyed by everything

[Kabuto 0]

Oh lol, 4 mags of an M249 can take out a M1A1?!

You couldn't do this in OFP.

Well i changed my HDD time ago, and don't have ArmA on my HDD, and won't install ArmA till a new patch comes.

So i can't test it.

But destroying a M1A1 with an 5,56x45 LMG is bullshit.

I hope ArmA 2 based on OFP, and not on ArmA.

[Heatseeker 0]

Increasing the armor values wouldnt be good enough, Arma 2 should have a complete new damage system imo.

I recently replayed Mafia... and the damage model of its cars is pretty good. You dont get injured if someone shoots at you car's bumpers or wheels and a flat tire doesnt make a vehicle drive around in circles.

In Arma i can disable a 5t truck with 2 50. cal rounds to one of its rear wheels, thats 1 wheel out of 6.. the vehicle should still be serviceable.

A slightly more rough helicopter landing and we wont be able to keep a steady scope anymore. Vehicle are too vulnerable..

[sniper pilot 36]

yeah its true, that is what pisses me off more than anything is the hitpoint, its soo arcady!

[Jack-UK 0]

I would LOVE a completely new damage model... but i doubt BIS would actually do it.

[quiet_man 8]

the game is based on hitpoints. everything can be destroyed by everything.

i've taken out a m1a1 with 4 full mags from the saw.

saw = 8 damage

rgp = 600 damage

at4 = 500 damage

50.cal = 13 damage

i don't know the about of hp it takes to take out a vehicle but everything can be destroyed by everything

truth can become a lie by telling only parts

QuietMan

[ryankaplan 1]

The damage model would be great IMO, if the following where added:

-Ability for weapons to do different damage depending on what they are being shot at.

-Fully working (and not the excuse we have in arma now) bullet penetration system, with the ability to hit certain Damage Lods in the model, eg, "Engine", "Driver", "gunner", "commander", "AmmoStorage", "shield", etc.

With these two properties, pretty much any damage model could be simulated in ARMA 2. Eg, An APFSDSabot going through a tank means the tank is 'most likely' done over, with the crew in several pieces. At the same time, the same APFSDS round might go through one sidewindow of a humvee and out the other, ending up with some light injuries, possibly not even reducing the combat offensiveness of the vehicle. This way you will actually switch to HE(AT) if you want to properly toast that APC with all the infantry in it.

With the ability for weapons to do different damage to different vehicles, you could simulate specialised defence system like Reactive Armour, RPG skirts, Mine Resistant Systems quite accurately.

Oh, and you wouldnt have the great addition of houses being blown up by Sabot rounds any more.

alongside AI, the damage model my biggest gripe about ARMA currently, and i hope BIS improves it for their next game.

[mr.g-c 6]

This Topic is very important i think and BIS should or better must get rid of the hitpoint modell!

I mean we talking about the next-generation war-simulator...

A hitpoint system like in some odd computergames are simply bad - even some unrealistic shooters have a realistic damage model + some bigger Mods for "the old" OFP realised this already.

Regards, Christian

[P226 0]

This Topic is very important i think and BIS should or better must get rid of the hitpoint modell!

Agreed.

Maybe BI could set more "damage zones" (sorry I don't know much about that technical topic).

It's pretty unrealistic the way vehicles blow up. Most of the time the vehicle is immobilized (or just damaged) but rarely blows up like on the game.

Also some "eye candy" stuffs related to damages: visible fuel leaks, some parts barely hanging or damaged (for example doors of vehicles) etc... That'd be nice.

[messiahua 0]

I'm also voting for new damage system. Current hitpoints are very primitive, as someone mentioned above - destroy M1A1 with SAW... ridiculous.

[[aps]gnat 28]

I'm thinking the damage model only needs a Penetration parameter added.

i.e. Each item can have different base Penetration values on 1 or more areas of the vehicle (or any item, including buildings). Each round or rocket has a Penetration value.

If the round hitting the item has a great P-Value then the damage (the normal damage, direct or indirect) is actually applied. If its lower, no damage is inflicted.

Variation could include %-difference between P-Values modifies the amount of damage applied. ie. If the round has only 10% more P-Value than the item, only 50% of the rounds damage values are applied.

This would stop small-arms inflicting damage on armour, and would make RPG users look for soft-spots on Armour.

[smellyjelly 0]

The damage models is one of the few features that should be improved for me to buy ArmaII.

I've been complaining about this for awhile, but I'm tired of vehicles blowing up from bullets. It's unrealistic and very annoying. Helicopters also shouldn't blow up everytime they make a crash landing. It's not very realistic and without them exploding there could still be a small chance of survival.

My other suggestions to improve the damage model:

* Different levels of armor. For example, in Arma nothing can go through the humvee's windshield. I guess it could be realistic with a handgun, but an m107? It's the opposite with the AH-1Z, where even a handgun can go through the windshield and kill the pilot in one shot. As a simulator this has to be improved.

This also applies to the doors, roof, ect, and the bullets should loose momentum when they do go through armor.

* Realistic damage. One reason the vehicles really bug me in Arma is that I could shoot at the roof and the eventually vehicle will still be disabled. To disable the engine we should have to actually shoot it. Keep in mind that the hood should also be armored in some vehicles, so even though a handgun theoretically disable the engine, it won't because the bullets can't go through the hood.

* Weak and strong spots. It would add to the tactical aspect of ArmaII if vehicles had weak and strong spots. Let's use the humvee again as an example. The hood is armored, right? Well, what if the grille wasn't? This would give a place for you to aim for when you're trying to disable it. However, this is really important for armored vehicles like tanks because it's important to take them out as fast as possible. All vehicles should have realistic values, for example, the bottom could be weak and vulnerable to mines and grenades.

Those are the most important improvements that I can think of at the moment, although there are more that I'd like to see:

* The glass should look much more realistic when shot. First of all, if one window is shot, it should actually show a hole or crack, (depending if the bullet can get through), just like the bullet holes. Also, one effect that I think will look cool is if there is a puff of dust when the windshields are shot. I've seen it in quite a few real life videos and it could make shootouts it a bit more intense, however, remember that it doesn't happen everytime.

* The blown out tires shouldn't have the burnt texture and they should actually change shape.

* The car's should have minor parts that can fall off, like bumpers, door mirrors, and other parts. I don't think they should fall off from just a few shots, however a machine gun or nearby grenade should knock them off.

* Please, please, fix the burnt car texture. Preferably make there be a gradual transition of textures from a perfect car to a totally burned car when it catches fire.

I guess that's pretty much everything, at least for now. Keep in mind that my examples might not be realistic, but that's why they're just examples.

[Ryujin 0]

Yup, it is quite possible to create a damage model without hitpoints in any way, shape, or form. Its doable, but you got to use some brain power. If people are intrested I can explain how I plan to do it for my crysis mod ( Semper Fortis: Sea Air Land ).

[max power 21]

I don't think that hitpoints are the enemy. I think that perhaps global hitpoints may be.

To disagree with TOP, I don't find the helicopters in ArmA to be vulnerable. I find them to be relatively invulnerable if used properly, actually. If TOP believes that helicopters are designed to be resistant to small arms fire and that means that are totally invulnerable to it, I don't know what to say. Also, I've seen some video of some US Army guys hitting a small commuter car full of people with an at-4. The shell seemed to imact the engine compartment from the left side near the firewall. The front of the car was blow apart, the car was set on fire, and everyone on board was killed. This is not a relevantly different to ArmA's simulation. This doesn't mean I think that something like that would happen in all cases on all vehicles, but at least on the commuter cars, vehicle destroyed, all hands killed seems to be at least close to what happens.

To be clear, though, I think that a more robust damage model would be a welcome addition, especially in the case of tanks.

[sluggCDN 0]

Quote[/b] ]* The blown out tires shouldn't have the burnt texture and they should actually change shape.

* Please, please, fix the burnt car texture. Preferably make there be a gradual transition of textures from a perfect car to a totally burned car when it catches fire.

Totally agree with these points. In fact in OFP damaging tires has been done brilliant and simple. A wheel after being shot up would become non-functional, the wheel's model/geometry would simply sink; I think they just applied an animation whereby the wheel geometry would simply slide vertically off its central axis, along the "Y" axis. But visibly it looked like the tire just deflated.

And yes, it's no lie you can destroy a tank in ArmA with MG fire. BMP for example can simply be destroyed with 2 frags!!! 1-2 frags will make the crew disembark. In about 30 seconds the vehicle miraculously changes colour to burnt/rusty and the BMP explods.

Bottomline - hitpoint system should be completely discarded. BTW the character control/animation system should be completely re-worked as well, but it's another topic. If BIS just wants to sell ArmA2 they can simply slightly modify ArmA and sell in a different packaging - another "cat in the bag". But that will be their end as a viable company. If they do indeed want to stay on the market a lot of common sense should be applied in ArmA2 development. No rusty wheel crap, please.

[=JoKeR= 0]

The easy way to fix this is a script or eventhandler like

for tanks

fired=blabla 5.56,7.62,12,7 ammunition

then

this set dammage 0

And try to do the same thing with bullet proof glasses on choppers and land vehicles,and their external or internal armor shields protecting their vital points such fuel tanks and avionic stuff.

Then remove or fix the interpolation with the crew and their tank,or at least make things more real and remove the mini nuclear bomb effect that kills crew and people roaming around.They are easy to fix

[4 IN 1 0]

maybe i am dreaming, but i surely remembered one video of an M60 addon showing that non AP rounds deflected from a T72

[wipman 1]

Hi, seems that if you've bad luck with the shot the russian tanks

booth APC's and MBT's can deflect HEAT and AP rounds due to

the angle of the part where youre rocket, shell or missile hits.

It rarely happens, but it happens in the RL. Let's C ya

[MC_RIB 0]

Another problem with the new arma models is when the vehicle is blown up, it simply turns a different colour. Many times i have wasted rpgs on an already dead bmp in the distance. OFPs system was alot better because you actually knew the thing was dead. Maybe giving certain parts of the vehicle hitboxes similar to the player models, say the front panels having 3000 points, the back having 1500, and the tracks having 800 or whatever. It would bring back a much more tactical element to the game.

[sandzibar 0]

yes this is annoying. especially when the damage texture doesnt appear or lags behind. can be hard to work out whats been taken out and what hasnt on a busy battlefield.

[froggyluv 2136]

One thing that has always bothered me and I really don't understand is why is it so hard to have the aircraft crash with an approriate thunderous BOOM!?! Is this a collision detector issue? Quite the immersion-killer when I see a flaming helo silently crash into the side of a mountain...

[Flanker15 0]

For me to have serious consideration of purchasing ARMA 2 the damage model will need a total overhaul. ARMA's model was very poor by simulation standards but I let it slide that time.

The hitpoint system has to go, in its place a system of material thickness/composition/angel vs projectile kinetic energy or HEAT penetration needs to go in. If it penetrates the projectile path needs to be tracked through the vehicle modeling all the effects on components (all the important ones like ammo/fuel/people/weapons/engine/radio/wheels/suspension/sights should be modeled) with fragmentation and after armor effects modeled too.

It's a big ask but it's also the standard of sims these days.