Software Archaeology

[walker 0]

Hi all

I have been programming computers since the 1970s over the years the technology has changed radically. Much of the programming algorithms on which our modern world is based on were invented and coded on technology; such as ancient mainframes that no longer even exist. The hardware is probably very prone to damage and will not survive more than a century.

Consider the rubber keyboard of the original ZX Spectrum. One day it and even the plastic of its carcass will rot. Plastic is not as long lasting as some thought.

I question if we are doing our descendants a disservice by not looking at ways to preserve this history, not just in terms of hardware but in terms of software, algorithms database tools and more importantly the data they contain.

In the past this would have been the job of the software librarian but as we have moved away from large scale mainframe based to personal computing that task has disappeared, heck probably the bits of code they stored are now lost and many of them could because of the constrictions that enforced compact coding be a worthy mine for those wanting to construct more efficient code.

There is of course the additional problem of archive failure. Consider the loss of work as a result of the various losses incurred by the php failures at OFPEC, both from cracking and hardware/software/database corruption. Even when data is archived, the software it is written in can become so different in latter versions that unless it is also preserved too the value of the database is next to useless.

I think this is an important subject. I dare say the Romans thought nothing of the technology they used and replaced with better forms but today such throw away technology is priceless.

I wonder which algorithms we throw away today will one day sit in a code museum.

Kind Regards walker

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

Hi all

I have been programming computers since the 1970s over the years the technology has changed radically. Much of the programming algorithms on which our modern world is based on were invented and coded on technology; such as ancient mainframes that no longer even exist. The hardware is probably very prone to damage and will not survive more than a century.

Consider the rubber keyboard of the original ZX Spectrum. One day it and even the plastic of its carcass will rot. Plastic is not as long lasting as some thought.

I question if we are doing our descendants a disservice by not looking at ways to preserve this history, not just in terms of hardware but in terms of software, algorithms database tools and more importantly the data they contain.

In the past this would have been the job of the software librarian but as we have moved away from large scale mainframe based to personal computing that task has disappeared, heck probably the bits of code they stored are now lost and many of them could because of the constrictions that enforced compact coding be a worthy mine for those wanting to construct more efficient code.

There is of course the additional problem of archive failure. Consider the loss of work as a result of the various losses incurred by the php failures at OFPEC, both from cracking and hardware/software/database corruption. Even when data is archived, the software it is written in can become so different in latter versions that unless it is also preserved too the value of the database is next to useless.

I think this is an important subject. I dare say the Romans thought nothing of the technology they used and replaced with better forms but today such throw away technology is priceless.

I wonder which algorithms we throw away today will one day sit in a code museum.

Kind Regards walker

Darwins law will once again be in charge. Which is fine by me

We know of the aquaduct because it worked. Who knows how many prototypes that didn't work, and is forgotten now. This is fine, why keep track on all our failures?

The things that are to remember, will be remembered, no doubt about that. We can't have some kind of commitee to choose which algorithms we are to keep and which isn't valuable enough.

And to be honest, to have some kind of software museum nowadays would be pointless. The languages which have been used will be remembered, both digital and in paper - no need to save the rest.

[mr burns 132]

We know of the aquaduct because it worked. Who knows how many prototypes that didn't work, and is forgotten now. This is fine, why keep track on all our failures?

The things that are to remember, will be remembered, no doubt about that. We can't have some kind of commitee to choose which algorithms we are to keep and which isn't valuable enough.

We know pyramids aswell, and they´ve lasted .. but the question is how things like that were achieved in the first place. Reminds me of roman cement, which was invented & forgotten hundreds of years before someone came up with the same idea again.

Of course people will remember how much of an aid computers are/were, but how would you wanna know how they worked if everything describing the science of it was saved on computer hardwahre which by that time will be rotten

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

We know of the aquaduct because it worked. Who knows how many prototypes that didn't work, and is forgotten now. This is fine, why keep track on all our failures?

The things that are to remember, will be remembered, no doubt about that. We can't have some kind of commitee to choose which algorithms we are to keep and which isn't valuable enough.

We know pyramids aswell, and they´ve lasted .. but the question is how things like that were achieved in the first place. Reminds me of roman cement, which was invented & forgotten hundreds of years before someone came up with the same idea again.

Of course people will remember how much of an aid computers are/were, but how would you wanna know how they worked if everything describing the science of it was saved on computer hardwahre which by that time will be rotten

As said, the computer languages (tools) used to create these programs are all stored in various books around the world. It wont be lost.

[mr burns 132]

We know of the aquaduct because it worked. Who knows how many prototypes that didn't work, and is forgotten now. This is fine, why keep track on all our failures?

The things that are to remember, will be remembered, no doubt about that. We can't have some kind of commitee to choose which algorithms we are to keep and which isn't valuable enough.

We know pyramids aswell, and they´ve lasted .. but the question is how things like that were achieved in the first place. Reminds me of roman cement, which was invented & forgotten hundreds of years before someone came up with the same idea again.

Of course people will remember how much of an aid computers are/were, but how would you wanna know how they worked if everything describing the science of it was saved on computer hardwahre which by that time will be rotten

As said, the computer languages (tools) used to create these programs are all stored in various books around the world. It wont be lost.

Books have a nasty habit of being all stored close together, needs just one grenade the whole squad goes "oh no .. ".

Basically saying that it would´nt be the first time in history that knowledge stored on paper gets lost due to external circumstances.

[ran 0]

hehehehe, Alexandria, Antioch, Washington, Smolensk and more recently, Manipur ... libraries have always been of great interest for pyromaniac idiots.

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

True, but the big difference between now and 300 years ago, is that almost everybody have books and are able to read. This is the informational age, which means it is quite different than before.

The books isn't stored in one place, but are placed in millions of homes.

[ran 0]

books and pieces of information might be widespred nowadays, but papyrus rolls, millenia old engravings, handwritten dark-ages bibles astrology treaties and so on and originals of the first prints of the Lumières books aren't, and that's where our history lays.

Sure, the information contained in openly available items of knowledge has been endlessly replicated in many shapes (paperbacks, weekly publications, audiotapes, hard disks and CD's) but the value of a recipe book handwritten and decorated by a monk in the middle of Nowhere, Europe over the years 1231 to 1235 is not the same as that of a budget version of "Geography for dummies".

The main thing is that nobody will ever concentrate all of human knowledge in one skull.

[crashdome 3]

The best preservation of history is by passing on knowledge. The fact that it is shaped and molded within each generation does not change the value of it. Preserving verbatim history is the work of historians and archivers who want to study the past. We cannot even understand the present... how are we also going to understand the past? Consider all the hidden histories of past cultures. I will cite Native American tribes as an example. Even with all the technology, the studies, the books... we will never know the true history because we are white men. We did not live it. We did not create it. We will never understand it. About the best way to preserve it is to let it be carried on and given to each generation so that they can work with it and make it theirs. As it passes on, it may not be the same, but it is just as important.

This may sound too deep for "software", but it's the truth. You can try and "preserve" the past all you want. You can never really and truly "preserve" because it is the past and the present doesn't know it.

[Edit...]

I reread and this captured me again:

Quote[/b] ]I wonder which algorithms we throw away today will one day sit in a code museum.

Let me ask you these:

You chose the words "throw away". What significance does that embody?

What is more important: What that algorithm has accomplished and how it has been used to create newer and more significant alogrithms? or the algorithm itself?

[Edit again... ]

I often am faced with data loss. Mostly documents and things I found interesting one day many years ago cluttering up my personal file storage areas. Sometimes I willingly overwrite large sections of data knowing full well I may one day wish I saved something within it (never know which file it might be out of the hundreds I am killing off at the press of a button). I find it refreshing believe it or not. Take OFPEC as an example. Had it never raised from the dead, would we have really been so far behind? We still get the same *noob* questions and the same *noobs* still work it out for themselves. We cannot funnel everyone through the data like a ride at Disney World. Instead we must teach it and pass it on by answering the *noob* questions and spreading the knowledge as best we can.

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

books and pieces of information might be widespred nowadays, but papyrus rolls, millenia old engravings, handwritten dark-ages bibles astrology treaties and so on and originals of the first prints of the Lumières books aren't, and that's where our history lays.

Sure, the information contained in openly available items of knowledge has been endlessly replicated in many shapes (paperbacks, weekly publications, audiotapes, hard disks and CD's) but the value of a recipe book handwritten and decorated by a monk in the middle of Nowhere, Europe over the years 1231 to 1235 is not the same as that of a budget version of "Geography for dummies".

The main thing is that nobody will ever concentrate all of human knowledge in one skull.

I doubt software algorythms is stored on papyrus rolls or old engravings, which this thread is about .

[ran 0]

books and pieces of information might be widespred nowadays, but papyrus rolls, millenia old engravings, handwritten dark-ages bibles astrology treaties and so on and originals of the first prints of the Lumières books aren't, and that's where our history lays.

Sure, the information contained in openly available items of knowledge has been endlessly replicated in many shapes (paperbacks, weekly publications, audiotapes, hard disks and CD's) but the value of a recipe book handwritten and decorated by a monk in the middle of Nowhere, Europe over the years 1231 to 1235 is not the same as that of a budget version of "Geography for dummies".

The main thing is that nobody will ever concentrate all of human knowledge in one skull.

I doubt software algorythms is stored on papyrus rolls or old engravings, which this thread is about .

banks of old floppy disks and CD's could melt as well as Alexandria's papyrus roll burnt

[Commando84 0]

maybe scientists will figure out a way to save data that cant be erased or fade away so easy? Maybe some diamond discs or other chrystall stuff like in sci-fi movies , series

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

books and pieces of information might be widespred nowadays, but papyrus rolls, millenia old engravings, handwritten dark-ages bibles astrology treaties and so on and originals of the first prints of the Lumières books aren't, and that's where our history lays.

Sure, the information contained in openly available items of knowledge has been endlessly replicated in many shapes (paperbacks, weekly publications, audiotapes, hard disks and CD's) but the value of a recipe book handwritten and decorated by a monk in the middle of Nowhere, Europe over the years 1231 to 1235 is not the same as that of a budget version of "Geography for dummies".

The main thing is that nobody will ever concentrate all of human knowledge in one skull.

I doubt software algorythms is stored on papyrus rolls or old engravings, which this thread is about .

banks of old floppy disks and CD's could melt as well as Alexandria's papyrus roll burnt

Yep, but now we are back at square one... popular information post 1950 is widespread in homes/companies etc.

Why are you talking about papyrus rolls anyway?

[-ZG-BUZZARD 0]

maybe scientists will figure out a way to save data that cant be erased or fade away so easy? Maybe some diamond discs or other chrystall stuff like in sci-fi movies , series

I have no knowledge on the subject but I think that hard disks are the things that are supposed to store the information for the longest time... on a sidenote, I heard that TDK wanted to fabricate vinyl compact discs because unlike the normal compact discs, they are supposed to last over a century, or something like that... but, as I said, I have no knowledge on the subject

[ran 0]

Why are you talking about papyrus rolls anyway?

can't remember why

[sander 14]

Hi,

When I was studying history over a decade ago, one of the curators at the national archives told our group of students that they were investing into better climate control rather than digitising all the papers as a means of preservation because it would be by no means sure that the CD-ROMS would survive in a readable format for the same period of time as the records preserved there. Paper has proven remarkably enduring when circumstances are right and it does not requirement special equipment to read. Electronic storage media have not yet proven themselves.

Regards,

Sander

[crashdome 3]

That doesn't necessarily mean they won't. I am betting there is far more information in the originals in the form of textures and slight flaws which tell stories themselves sometimes. Hard to get off a copy in digital format..

BUT the topic was about storing "digital history" not storing "history digitally"! i.e. the original is already digital.

Also, does it matter if a CD-ROM can last a century when at the click of a button you can transfer to other digital media without loss of information?

[bonko the sane 2]

not so much as in software codes, but are you aware that UNESCO (or the UN?) are building a database for multimedia art which only existed/exists in digital form. Similar concept really.

But i'l be damned if i can find a link or something that mentions it, maybe they ditched it, but i doubt it as a fellow student of mine from Uni went to work on that project in NY last year and he didnt come back.