climatic changes, what do you think about that?

[4 IN 1 0]

most ppl here seems to living in temperate zone, but global warming is even more noticable in semitropical, well atless for me

[Sc@tterbrain 0]

ok...stop mentioning politics. last warning before I hand out PRs

I mentioned a movie based on the topic.  Yes, the movie was "made" by someone involved in *censored*.

Nobody was making this a *censored* discussion. Some replies were simply making the point that the two have become intertwined and that it can bee seen as a negative to rationally dealing with the issue

I understand that you don't want this thread to become a *censored* disscussion, but it's a bit silly to get so worked up over the use of a word.   Especially in the manner it was used.

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

most ppl here seems to living in temperate zone, but global warming is even more noticable in semitropical, well atless for me

We have had 9 heat-record months in Denmark the last 10 months.

If that is a hoax - they people behind it must have some agreement with god

[Sennacherib 0]

well this topic is intended to speak about the future of the planet, i mean our opinions, not about the politicians who are too occupied to make nothing or to keep their seats.

the climatic changes are not a joke, if you want to have an example, ask to the Inuits who can see the ice-barrier disappears during the summer and the permafrost melts.

personally in my country, we do not have any more a winter, but a long autumn.

and just a last thing: the polutions who make these changes, is also the pollution from the industrial revolution. so our pollution will cause a lot of problems in the future.

yes, the earth has its own changes; but it's not really intelligent to add new things in the cyclic changes of the earth.

And the climatic changes are not the only problems; if mankind destroy a lot of species; we do not know what will happen. if the bees disappears how a lot of plants will be pollinated. if the sharks disappears which animals will clean the oceans, i mean when they eat the carcasses of the whales to prevent diseases from developing; etc etc .....

nobody knows how the Earth functions . And that does not prevent the human ones from doing anything.

[BlackScorpion 0]

Well... we did have a nice winter... short, actually 2 parts, but fairly nice. -40°C at best here... could be colder, though.

Around 20-30°C here at the moment. And an UV-warning is in effect. I haven't seen clouds for 2 days now, and they say it's going to heat up. Not that I'm actually complaining about the weather itself, but... it does affect the average temperature and the nature.

[Daniel 0]

I share Espectro's view on power.

Just because we can doesn't mean we should, and I believe this applies especially to nuclear power.

[Journeyman 0]

Global warming is something that I have been studying for many years and is a real issue and probably far more serious to our complex societies than any government is prepared to admit to. The climate is changing and quite quickly too and this is going to have a massive impact on all of our future plans and development on this overpopulated planet. There will be famine from droughts, massive floods and related diseases and other extreme weather events triggering a range of related problems that we as a global community will be unable to cope with!

Can we do anything to stop it? NO! This is a natural event that has occurred many times in the Earths past (long before we came along and started burning fossil fuels! and will continue changing for as long as the Earth exists!

Does anyone seriously believe that burning fossil fuels is the reason for all this? What really governs our planets temperature is the heat source itself ...THE SUN! The Sun constantly undergoes high and low energy cycles and is called solar or sunspot activity. The graph below shows a record of solar activity (sun spots) combined with global temperature and co2 levels since the early 1800s.

This shows the correlation between sunspot activity and how it influences global temperature and then co2 levels accordingly. Research and ice core findings have shown that past co2 levels have risen and fallen as a response to temperature changes and not how we are being led to believe by our leaders! Go HERE for a better explanation and a summary of an excellent program shown a while back here in the UK.

It is a shame that RalphWiggum is refusing politics to be mentioned on this issue, as the whole subject is a serious political fiasco! PR me if you want but this is the biggest political scandal of the century!

Global warming is here and is real! We are doing and can do NOTHING about it! We are being fed a lie for the benefit of economists!  

[karantan 0]

Interesting. I know the Sun have those cycles and it's like resposible for the climate changes in the past (some other scientists are (also) blaming the magnetic pole shifting - btw some scientists also say the Earth magnetism is rapidly diminishing - even a much greater danger from a global warming; solar radiation), but I don't belive this is (entirely) true; if it would be, then those 'grand polutors' with USA at the helm would vocal out this truth on all drums they have, and then they'll keep hapily and undesturbed to polute the planet.

But who cares, it's saturday (for a half an hour), night is still young, life's calling, must go out to party or I won't score at my wife tonight!  

[BlackScorpion 0]

Well, dunno about the rapidly part (fairly fast AFAIK, though), but it is changing. It does that in cycles of about 20k years IIRC, it has been studied by examinating ground layers and how certain magnetic particles are arranged in each layer. Welcome, skin cancer. Auroras in London, anyone?

I got burnt today... never got a sunburn at these longitudes ever before. And well, I never use any sun cover lotions.

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

Global warming is something that I have been studying for many years and is a real issue and probably far more serious to our complex societies than any government is prepared to admit to. The climate is changing and quite quickly too and this is going to have a massive impact on all of our future plans and development on this overpopulated planet. There will be famine from droughts, massive floods and related diseases and other extreme weather events triggering a range of related problems that we as a global community will be unable to cope with!

Can we do anything to stop it? NO! This is a natural event that has occurred many times in the Earths past (long before we came along and started burning fossil fuels! and will continue changing for as long as the Earth exists!

Does anyone seriously believe that burning fossil fuels is the reason for all this? What really governs our planets temperature is the heat source itself ...THE SUN! The Sun constantly undergoes high and low energy cycles and is called solar or sunspot activity. The graph below shows a record of solar activity (sun spots) combined with global temperature and co2 levels since the early 1800s.

This shows the correlation between sunspot activity and how it influences global temperature and then co2 levels accordingly. Research and ice core findings have shown that past co2 levels have risen and fallen as a response to temperature changes and not how we are being led to believe by our leaders! Go HERE for a better explanation and a summary of an excellent program shown a while back here in the UK.

It is a shame that RalphWiggum is refusing politics to be mentioned on this issue, as the whole subject is a serious political fiasco! PR me if you want but this is the biggest political scandal of the century!

Global warming is here and is real! We are doing and can do NOTHING about it! We are being fed a lie for the benefit of economists!

That doesn't say anything at all. It doesn't explain why we have the highest CO2 level ever on this planet dating thousinds of years back.

As seen on you beautifull graph, it doesn't explain why we have this sudden incline in CO2 and temperature levels since the industrial age.

And finally, I don't really see too much correalation between the two. The biggest rise in solar activity actually happends AFTER the big rise in CO2 (around 1940 (can't really see)).

And to be honest, that graph is taken out of context, why not present one that are much older, say a couple 1000 years or more - then we can use it for something.

A 100 year statistic can't be used when we are talking about global warming, as the planet is much more complex that we can ever imagine, and there is bound to be several random factors that we cannot comprehend.

Global warming IS connected to CO2, and we are responsible for much of it!

[Journeyman 0]

Espectro I was led down the same path as you for many years and I'm not saying that our activities on this planet is not responsible for a percentage of shifting climate patterns. But the fact remains that this sort of climatic seesawing has been going on for millions of years and research has shown that co2 increases follow temperature increases and not the other way round. There has been plenty of articles written about this and believe me I've read just about all of them!

I am an environmentalist just like you and cringe at any wasting of energy or destruction of forests and agree that we need to change our ways. But what we are talking about here is an unstoppable force of nature destined our way whether we all go green or not!

Below is a graph of sunspot activity going back to the middle ages and as all historians know there was a period in the middle ages known a s the Maunder Minimum and was an exceptionally hot period (far hotter than today). They were growing grape vines in London at the time!

I agree we are talking about a very complex issue that is extremely difficult to measure. But we are also being made to follow a new age belief in order to support a massive new industry worth billions of dollars worldwide!  

You also mention co2 as being at its highest for thousands of years. You are then making that brainwashed assumption that co2 is the reason why we are getting hotter when there is good research that shows this to be nothing but fiction! The biggest greenhouse gas is water vapour and this has been shown to be a spin off from increased solar activity. Measurements in the upper atmosphere (where co2 congregates) have shown no increases in temperature here whatsoever to coincide with co2 increases. The temperature increases have been at ground level only! So there goes another theory about co2 being a significant greenhouse gas!  

Go HERE for another interesting read!

[walker 0]

Hi all

In reply to Red kite

Looking closely at your graph it is obvious the CO2 levels (blue) fit the temperature levels (red) more closely than sunspot activity(orange) which is now in the declining part of its 28-year cycle and which your graph clearly shows.

Sorry mate you shot your argument in the foot but you have done the climate argument in this thread a great service by pointing out that sun spot activity and its 28-year cycle are a red herring, so thank you.

Kind Regards walker

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

But your explanation just doesn't make sense. If following your logic, the planet would be the warmest ever since we have the highest CO2 level around. It doesn't hold water. I am also critical about these studies, simply because for every study that figures out something dramatically, some other group find the opposit. For example, a recent study from the Epica team revealed that by analysing data in ice dating 650.000 years back, they concluded, and I qoute:

"We found a very tight relationship between CO2 and temperature even before 420,000 years," said Professor Stocker.

"The fact that the relationship holds across the transition between climatic regimes is a very strong indication of the important role of CO2 in climate regulation."

CO2 might not be the biggest contributor to global warming, but we as a race, must decrease global warming, instead of expanding it. It probably is a lost cause, but we can decrease the impact of it, by slowing it down and making the world ready for the water rise etc.

We are not capable of controlling solar activity, but we damn sure can stop contributing with the various greenhouse gasses.

[Journeyman 0]

Sorry mate you shot your argument in the foot but you have done the climate argument in this thread a great service by pointing out that sun spot activity and its 28-year cycle are a red herring, so thank you.

Kind Regards walker

OK mate! I'll let you guys go on beleiving the greatest lie of the century! Good luck!  

Meanwhile I'll stick to scientific facts and my own research and intuition!

Kind regards,

Red kite!

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

Sorry mate you shot your argument in the foot but you have done the climate argument in this thread a great service by pointing out that sun spot activity and its 28-year cycle are a red herring, so thank you.

Kind Regards walker

OK mate! I'll let you guys go on beleiving the greatest lie of the century! Good luck!

Meanwhile I'll stick to scientific facts and my own research and intuition!

Kind regards,

Red kite!

I sure hope you don't use the same arguments in your research

[Sc@tterbrain 0]

Sorry mate you shot your argument in the foot but you have done the climate argument in this thread a great service by pointing out that sun spot activity and its 28-year cycle are a red herring, so thank you.

Kind Regards walker

OK mate! I'll let you guys go on beleiving the greatest lie of the century! Good luck!  

Meanwhile I'll stick to scientific facts and my own research and intuition!

Kind regards,

Red kite!

I sure hope you don't use the same arguments in your research

Well at least he can provide DATA supporting his claim.

Where is your "proof" to the contrary?

Aparently your smarter than then the researchers studying this, so enlighten us so we can all jump on the bandwagon.

"Nu-uhah" is not convincing.

I have a feeling your one of those who use CFL (compact fluorescent light) bulbs. Have you broken one recently?

[vilas 477]

i know that US f*** international standarts and agreements on emmision of CO2, because they must drive thier big pickups with 7 liter engine isntead of 1.5 liter small car

i saw on TV that they throw trash to ocean ?

300 milions of people are ruining world for 6 000 000 000 of other people :/

what do i think about climatic changes ?

i remember from my childhood Poland was normal climate country, in winter we had very beautifull snow to kneels, in summer we could normally function, and now

there was only few days of snow

in summer there is so hot, that sometimes shirt and trousers is too hot, i work in office, i cannot be in just t-shirt and shors at my work (no money for aircondition), i must be elegant because i am officer :/

in office i cannot take shower, in home sometimes i take 3 showers a day :/

i must cut hair because head is boiling, for 10 years i had long hair, and i had no problems with too hot weather

fo our army now is manufacturing ripstop uniform, we had no such in previous history :/

sometimes in summer i sit whole day and cannot do anything, because all is so hot :/

if i had moe money and language skills, familly there i could escape to Norway or Finland to have some colder air :/

i miss old days when we had beautifull snow, when in summer we could work normally, without sweat

i think in last 15 years there is +5, 10 degrees celsius more :/

really hate summers now :/

my children will not knew what is sledge ride, in my childhood i remember sledges on the streets :/

i really hate global worming

[Balschoiw 0]

Talking about Data:

NASA Research Finds That Earth's Climate is Approaching 'Dangerous' Point

Quote[/b] ]NASA and Columbia University Earth Institute research finds that human-made greenhouse gases have brought the Earth’s climate close to critical tipping points, with potentially dangerous consequences for the planet

From a combination of climate models, satellite data, and paleoclimate records the scientists conclude that the West Antarctic ice sheet, Arctic ice cover, and regions providing fresh water sources and species habitat are under threat from continued global warming. The research appears in the current issue of Atmospheric Chemistry and Physics.

Tipping points can occur during climate change when the climate reaches a state such that strong amplifying feedbacks are activated by only moderate additional warming. This study finds that global warming of 0.6 C in the past 30 years has been driven mainly by increasing greenhouse gases, and only moderate additional climate forcing is likely to set in motion disintegration of the West Antarctic ice sheet and Arctic sea ice. Amplifying feedbacks include increased absorption of sunlight as melting exposes darker surfaces and speedup of iceberg discharge as the warming ocean melts ice shelves that otherwise inhibit ice flow.

The researchers used data on earlier warm periods in Earth’s history to estimate climate impacts as a function of global temperature, climate models to simulate global warming, and satellite data to verify ongoing changes. Lead author James Hansen, NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies, New York, concludes: “If global emissions of carbon dioxide continue to rise at the rate of the past decade, this research shows that there will be disastrous effects, including increasingly rapid sea level rise, increased frequency of droughts and floods, and increased stress on wildlife and plants due to rapidly shifting climate zones.â€

The researchers also investigate what would be needed to avert large climate change, thus helping define practical implications of the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change. That treaty, signed in 1992 by the United States and almost all nations of the world, has the goal to stabilize atmospheric greenhouse gases “at a level that prevents dangerous human-made interference with the climate system.â€

Based on climate model studies and the history of the Earth the authors conclude that additional global warming of about 1 C (1.8 F) or more, above global temperature in 2000, is likely to be dangerous. In turn, the temperature limit has implications for atmospheric carbon dioxide (CO2), which has already increased from the pre-industrial level of 280 parts per million (ppm) to 383 ppm today and is rising by about 2 ppm per year. According to study co-author Makiko Sato of Columbia’s Earth Institute, “the temperature limit implies that CO2 exceeding 450 ppm is almost surely dangerous, and the ceiling may be even lower.â€

The study also shows that the reduction of non-carbon dioxide forcings such as methane and black soot can offset some CO2 increase, but only to a limited extent. Hansen notes that “we probably need a full court press on both CO2 emission rates and non-CO2 forcings, to avoid tipping points and save Arctic sea ice and the West Antarctic ice sheet.â€

A computer model developed by the Goddard Institute was used to simulate climate from 1880 through today. The model included a more comprehensive set of natural and human-made climate forcings than previous studies, including changes in solar radiation, volcanic particles, human-made greenhouse gases, fine particles such as soot, the effect of the particles on clouds and land use. Extensive evaluation of the model’s ability to simulate climate change is contained in a companion paper to be published in Climate Dynamics.

The authors use the model for climate simulations of the 21st century using both ‘business-as-usual’ growth of greenhouse gas emissions and an ‘alternative scenario’ in which emissions decrease slowly in the next few decades and then rapidly to achieve stabilization of atmospheric CO2 amount by the end of the century. Climate changes are so large with ‘business-as-usual’, with additional global warming of 2-3 C (3.6-5.4 F) that Hansen concludes “‘business-as-usual’ would be a guarantee of global and regional disasters.â€

However, the study finds much less severe climate change – one-quarter to one-third that of the "business-as-usual" scenario – when greenhouse gas emissions follow the alternative scenario. “Climate effects may still be substantial in the 'alternative scenario’, but there is a better chance to adapt to the changes and find other ways to further reduce the climate change,†said Sato.

While the researchers say it is still possible to achieve the “alternative scenario,†they note that significant actions will be required to do so. Emissions must begin to slow soon. “With another decade of ‘business-as-usual’ it becomes impractical to achieve the ‘alternative scenario’ because of the energy infrastructure that would be in place†says Hansen.

Because of a rapid warming trend over the past 30 years, the Earth is now reaching and passing through the warmest levels seen in the last 12,000 years. This color-coded map shows average temperatures from 2001-2005 compared to a base period of temperatures from 1951-1980. Dark red indicates the greatest warming and purple indicates the greatest cooling.

Data from this study reveal that the Earth has been warming approximately 0.2 degrees Celsius (.36 Fahrenheit) per decade for the past 30 years. This rapid warming has brought global temperature to within about one degree Celsius 1.8 Degrees Fahrenheit) of the maximum estimated temperature during the past million years.

Global warming is already beginning to have noticeable effects in nature. Plants and animals can survive only within certain climatic zones, so with the warming of recent decades many of them are beginning to migrate poleward. A study that appeared in Nature Magazine in 2003 found that 1700 plant, animal and insect species moved poleward at an average rate of 6 kilometers (about 4 miles) per decade in the last half of the 20th century.

That migration rate is not fast enough to keep up with the current rate of movement of a given temperature zone, which has reached about 40 kilometers (about 25 miles) per decade in the period 1975 to 2005. “Rapid movement of climatic zones is going to be another stress on wildlife†according to Hansen. “It adds to the stress of habitat loss due to human developments. If we do not slow down the rate of global warming, many species are likely to become extinct. In effect we are pushing them off the planet.â€

[Journeyman 0]

Talking about Data:

NASA Research Finds That Earth's Climate is Approaching 'Dangerous' Point

Yep I've read many articles like that! NASA is a US government agency. Does that not ring any bells? There is absolutely nothing new in there whatsoever and the usual distorted claim that man made co2 is somehow responsible for all this is just wearing a bit thin!  I don't see any new research anywhere recently that supports this theory only to the contrary.

It's just another example of how influential government agencies are over the general public and how gullible the general public are in following the line! This is required of course so that this new multi billion dollar global warming abatement industry can keep its credibility!  

Have another look at that global temperature graph that is shown in that article, it is the same as the one that I showed earlier and compares with solar activity cycles.

Notice how that between 1940 and 1980 the temperature actually goes down! This would have been the time of major co2 emissions as industry exploded just after the war and yet it had no influence on temperature in that period. Solar activity on the other hand fits that period more accurately for those willing to study it closer!  

More co2 is emitted from the oceans every year and other natural sources such as volcanoes than any amount of man-made emissions could possibly match! The warmer the oceans become the more co2 they will emit. That is what research has shown in the past and it is what is happening right now!

[vilas 477]

Quote[/b] ]Yep I've read many articles like that! NASA is a US government agency. Does that not ring any bells?

for some people nothing bells

propaganda works

i wonder if one day propaganda will say that 2+2=5, is than some people will throw away calculators ?

yes and farting cows on fields also produce CO2, but not big US pickups with 6-7 liters engines, not railway on oli

they do not produce any harm, all europe has railway on electric energy, but US railway and trucks do not do anything bad, excepc cows and some other home animals producing CO2  ;]

they say about small grow of temeperature ?

well than why i see much more grow ?

why 20 years ago i could play in snow to my kneels and now there were only few days of snow and why we have big floods since few years ?

why since few years in t-shirt it is too hot in summer, i have never remember from my childhood temperaturs biger than 40oC in eastern europe

some countries in this globe (and some people ) represent "Kali's philosophy", Kali is name of one negative personage from our literature, a well know literature symbol;

Kali was saying : "if i steal someting - it is good, if someone will steal my thing - it is bad"

it is like with school shootings, like with terrorism, some countries citizens seems to not understand implication

reason - result

cause - effect

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]NASA is a US government agency. Does that not ring any bells?

Erm...

If this report, that was released last week (so it´s pretty much up-todate) was influenced by the government it should tell us that there is no man-made global-warming, not the other way round...

That is what G.W. Bush claimed for the last years, and this is in contrast to the findings of the joint effort of NASA and Columbia University.

If you want to have more recent published studies use google. There are quite a number of them from various countries, universities, institutes and whatnot. They all seem to agree on the manmade effects on temperature rise, so I do not see much sense in redebating that over and over again.

It´s like debating if the world is flat or not.

[vilas 477]

about ringing bells :

yes, but they do not want to debate about lower CO2 production, they do not talk about electrification of railway, they do not talk about 1-2 liters engines for cars

also, maybe this is offtopic, but i will say someting about US

once upon a time i saw such material on Discovery:

material was about people killed under trucks

i don't know technical englishg so i will say as i can

program was about situation when on US roads people die because small car gets under semitrailer and driver and passenger looses heads

some people said that there should be favour/barrier in middle of semitrailer body to avoid getting car under this semitrailer

than US manufactures said that this will rise cost of semitrailers and also some high-function individuals from US road police departament and transport departament

said that there is no such construction in the whole world !and everywhere there is a problem with such accidents and everywhere people die cut under trucks !

well it was LIE, because outside US there is such construction in everyday use, without this manufacturer cannot sell his semitrailers in Europe if it not fullfills security requirements !

in Europe such accident is technically much less possible or even impossible in case of small velocity of vehicless in accident

also we have ecological patrols of police, if they see car that makes a lot of smoke, they have equipement to test it and to gave ticket or even block such car !

http://www.auto-raty.pl/komisy/fotoauta/138a.jpg

http://www.adremtruck.com.pl/gielda/foto/image76_1.jpg

so how bell rings now ?

sorry for offtopic but i wanted to show that you cannot belive if someone is saying 2+2=5

[Journeyman 0]

Quote[/b] ]NASA is a US government agency. Does that not ring any bells?

Erm...

If this report, that was released last week (so it´s pretty much up-todate) was influenced by the government it should tell us that there is no man-made global-warming, not the other way round...

OK you tell me why it should tell us that there is no man-made global-warming and I will answer you when I get back tonight!  

[smiley nick 51]

It would be silly to say we haven't had a impact on global warming. But i do belive we have sped up the process, but how much? I don't know..

I belive this is natures natural selection process again, and its a good way to clean the planet of us, we are all useless humans who lead our lives, some people care some people don't, but as a race, we are all the same.

Lets hope we either get into space, or our next generation of survivors will learn from "our" mistakes and make a better world!!!!

But on the other hand, because are humans, we can also take advantage of this, imagine when the planet kicks into its full destructive force, governments, companies could benefit from the less fortunate, it would be a new cruel world, where our luxuries are stripped and survival would be the only thing required.

Nick

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]OK you tell me why it should tell us that there is no man-made global-warming and I will answer you when I get back tonight!

I can´t as Ralph announced that if politics are discussed he will hand out PR´s