satchel radar

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Ok, after about half an hour, trying to reproduce the AI behaviour I witnessed, I must admit defeat.

Thx for taking the time and initiative. I wouldn´t say it´s a defeat as it only shows that the AI detection seems to work properly in this case, which is a good thing for all.

This is what I call decent testing before reporting.

An editor mission template that collects the knowsabout values and hints them is the only way to reproduce and correctly judge the AI patterns.

Again, thx for taking the time and testing that issue.

[ShrubMiK 0]

I've always assumed (but never verified) that carrying an AT launcher makes me more visible to the enemy. Something straight and thin sticking out above the top of my head is more likely to attract the eye as I move about.

In some situations a similar argument can be made for holding an AT launcher in the firing position. The tube may protrude slightly from the cover. It is more obvious that an unknown shape in the bushes really is an enemy, etc.

I doubt the AI models it in this sort of detail, but my assumption was that there is some sort of simplistic statistical modelling of your increased visibility going on.

[HamishUK 0]

Quote[/b] ]sometimes i wish i could see what AIs see

You somewhat can. Hint the knowsabout value of a unit about you and you will see when he detects you or has some suspicious moments.

Ok, after about half an hour, trying to reproduce the AI behaviour I witnessed, I must admit defeat.

I tested it by hinting a BMP-2s knowsAbout value of me, whenever it changed. If I blew up a few tanks when the BMP was in the vicinity (but couldn't see me), its knowsAbout value was only raised to 1.5, which probably means something like "it knows I'm there somewhere", because I could see it was looking around for me.

It appears the magical AI I experienced was somehow scripted in the mission I played.

After some further testing, I could gather some info on the knowsAbout values:

0: AI doesn't know you exist

0.1-1.4: AI thinks you exist, but isn't sure where

1.5: AI knows you exist and that you are nearby

1.6-2.2: AI is increasingly sure of your position

2.25: AI knows where you are

2.3-3.9: AI knows more about what class you are

4: AI knows everything about you

regards

MadDogX

How does one go about testing this?

Do I place the Hint in the Init field? Any instruction would be appreciated.

[Heatseeker 0]

The a.i.'s detection and engagement distance has increased in Arma, many complaints come from there, their ability to engage acurately over distance will sometimes mask their other (more impressive) skills.

There is more to it... in OPF it was quite comon for experienced players to use bushes for concealment as much as possible, while engaging or detonating charges, you were invisible inside or behind a bush. I remember having a bunch of enemy a.i. almost on top of me while i was prone inside a bush and they couldnt detect me.

Not very realistic that...

In Arma being behind a bush doesnt seem to provide any concealment, i've been shot at from a.i. that didnt have a clear LOS on me, again not very realistic...

Firing a rocket launcher is pretty much like OPF, if you fire one nearby a.i. will hunt you down, their knowsabout level will max out so expect company soon.

To understand the a.i. one should understand a bit of basic editing (like what the diferent waypoints can do). A "guard" waypoint can simulate comunication betwean diferent squads, with one squad giving your pin point location to other squads, armored or air support to come after you.

I always found it fun to play with WP's, triggers and syncronisation, a big part of OPF/Arma's "magic" .

[MehMan 0]

AI is sometimes way too accurate in firing. I've had this happen to me a couple of times, the AI was about 300m away, I was lying down with my squad firing at them, they were retreating with a bang, I put my sights on a grenadier, took a shot, missed, the grenadier promptly made a 180° turn and fired his GP killing me with his first shot. And that is out of a sprint. And his back was turned to me. While not exactly an awareness lesson, it is an accuracy lesson.

[BroK3n 0]

After tweaking the AI values that are available on this forum, firefights are now survivable. But like you said... the nade launchers are still too accurate. Otherwise bullet-fighting is better after that AI value tweak.

[frederf 0]

I've found that throwing a grenade or a smoke_grenade I am discovered just as easily as if I had shot a loud rifle.

[Tankbuster 1746]

in my experience this is much less in the latest beta patch 1.07 or similar. making AI much more engaging to play against.

of course if you do fire then remember to move or they will eventually build a pretty clear picture where you are and then shoot you in the head.

anyone else confirm?

Do you think that go in war, is happy think ? That you will niver get shot ? Of course you will get shot... Don't look at middle east war like Irak 1991, those have old tank & plane, & can not fight against new U.S tech, also they can not hide in the desert and arab are bad soldier... Same about the Afghanistan those Rebel are using AK47 against Special Forces using M82 (Thermal & Night scoped)...

Sure if you were a soldier attacking a European country using russian new tech weapons, you will be probably be hit...

If you are hided in a bush & if A.I hit you, believe that those A.I are using Thermal Scope / Goggle

Much sense you not make.

[Second 0]

I've found that throwing a grenade or a smoke_grenade I am discovered just as easily as if I had shot a loud rifle.

Makes sense in a way, not much sound is made, but visual "noise" is there (thrower and/or grenade or smokecloud in smokegrenades) although it's handled by gamemechanism same way than when firing a rifle.

[odjob 0]

I've found that throwing a grenade or a smoke_grenade I am discovered just as easily as if I had shot a loud rifle.

Makes sense in a way, not much sound is made, but visual "noise" is there (thrower and/or grenade or smokecloud in smokegrenades) although it's handled by gamemechanism same way than when firing a rifle.

From my experience of the (Swedish) grenades they make a *crack* when the timed fuse ignites, sounds like a small firecracker.

[quiet_man 8]

Now there is just the trail BMP, but as soon as I see it, it's already firing on my position on the ridge above the road. WTF? I'm proned out and under a tree in long grass, yet it knows exactly where I am as soon as it gets a sight line.

Thermal scope (I.R view like Splinter Cell 4 or Vegas), of course in this game there is not such think in engine, so the A.I simulate it.

Your just making excuses now for poor AI scripting.

I get the same. All you have to do is blow the bridge in the campaign mission (forget it's name) and the vehicles turrets are already pointing directly at you (even though I was behind a wall)/

uuuhhhuuu, an expert!?

I agree that the "Thermal scope" stuff is not right, but "poor AI" is also not right. We talk about programs running on PC

As long as we have no simple algorithm to calculate the effect of cammo pathern against a random background, any "spotting" logic will be "poor"

it will be bad, missing a sodier in winter white cammo on a dark street

and it will be to good, spoting a soldier with same cammo against a perfect white concrete wall

not to talk about effects from air or rain that might perfectly hide a unit whith otherwise bad cammo

to be a little concrete, when we talk about AI, we talk about an algorithm running in Arma running on a PC.

In real world the problem is to find the target. The player is staring on the monitore trying to locate enemys.

In the virtual world Arma knows the exact position of any units (because Arma is placing it there), so the AI has to work the exact other way. Line of sight and awareness calcualtions are there to tell the AI when he will NOT know where the other is.

At most games you have linear mission and the AI starts to act on a trigger, telling him that he now "knows" about you when you cross a certain line.

At Arma you can throw 100 against 100 AIs and let them fight at any place in any order. The game has to calculate 100*100 = 10000 "line of sight" and "awareness" patterns every few seconds. Given the limitations of a PC, I find the Arma AI very good and I don't know any better.

QuietMan

[dayglow 2]

Now there is just the trail BMP, but as soon as I see it, it's already firing on my position on the ridge above the road. WTF? I'm proned out and under a tree in long grass, yet it knows exactly where I am as soon as it gets a sight line.

Thermal scope (I.R view like Splinter Cell 4 or Vegas), of course in this game there is not such think in engine, so the A.I simulate it.

(Have you ever see IR view in Aliens vs Predator or Predator 2 movies ?)

Actually I have experience working with thermal imaging in manhunts (working with a police helicopter on the ground) and know the advantages and limitations of FLIR in trying to find someone that has gone to the ground.

A head on shot of someone hiding under a tree would be very hard to distinguish. It is not like the movie at all and the natural radiation of IR of many objects around help mask someone.

I would look the same as a rock on the ground being warmed by the sun. Could careful anyalsis of the image show my outline? Probably, not within the split second it takes the BMP to enter LOS, located and fire on me.

I find this bug frustrating because it doesn't always reproduce. Sometimes the AI knows where you are, other times it doesn't.

[Second 0]

If BMP is part of infantry group it get's lots more info from infantry than it would get in "only vehicles"-group. As infantry spots better. That is kinda sad as it make squads with APCs very effective. But to me it's not too big issue: APCs goes off with big BANG killing half of their squad mean times. So it's sword with two blades.

Quote[/b] ]A head on shot of someone hiding under a tree would be very hard to distinguish. It is not like the movie at all and the natural radiation of IR of many objects around help mask someone.

I can agree with this, although mostly i was using IR-optics from 80's (quality of picture isn't good when comparing to newer stuff, color pattern was red-black and zoom level might have been more limited than these days). In military exercises it was hard to spot human targets as they act acordingly (trying to stay hidden). But our terrain favors infantry with average 50-100 meters viewdistances, so infantry literally lives in forest or atleast they have plenty of visual cover always at hand. We saw only "enemy" vehicles when operating with ATGMs, infentry never.

But once from 500 meters we were able see friendly squad of men in modern snowsnuits against snow (temprature was mild -20 celsius) with ordiary optics as they were unloading tents and such from APC, but thru IR we didn't see them (because of snowsuit, long distance), only shape of APC was visible.

[dayglow 2]

After tweaking the AI values that are available on this forum, firefights are now survivable. But like you said... the nade launchers are still too accurate. Otherwise bullet-fighting is better after that AI value tweak.

do you have a link? Will these tweaks only work in missions that use custom scripts or does it effect all missions?