Medics

[Sniperdoc 0]

Something I found real interesting, and I don't know if anyone other than service people would really catch something like this. In the game, the medics all have a M16...

Yet Navy FMF (Fleet Marine Force) Corpsman and Air Force Medics are only able to use the 9mm Pistol or a Shotgun (which I never saw in my five years of service)...

Now the Army, lets their 91B's (field medics) carry M16s... I don't get that...? I guess they're breaching their own Geneva categorization in favor of being able to throw some rounds at the enemy... not like all the nations the US fights adhere to the Geneva Laws in any case.

Are there any ex-91B's on here that could clear this up for a Corpsman who was only allowed to plink away with his 9mm if he had to?

How about other countries' medics? Any thoughts on what you gents had to deal with?

[Heavy Metal 0]

I would say it was because they wanted you to concentrate on medic stuff and not try and be a combatant.

[Kirby 2]

I think it would be cool to give the medics shotguns, actualy.

[Clavicula_nox4817 0]

Something I found real interesting, and I don't know if anyone other than service people would really catch something like this. In the game, the medics all have a M16...

Yet Navy FMF (Fleet Marine Force) Corpsman and Air Force Medics are only able to use the 9mm Pistol or a Shotgun (which I never saw in my five years of service)...

Now the Army, lets their 91B's (field medics) carry M16s... I don't get that...? I guess they're breaching their own Geneva categorization in favor of being able to throw some rounds at the enemy... not like all the nations the US fights adhere to the Geneva Laws in any case.

Are there any ex-91B's on here that could clear this up for a Corpsman who was only allowed to plink away with his 9mm if he had to?

How about other countries' medics? Any thoughts on what you gents had to deal with?

I was always under the impression that since they were "Combat Medics," instead of standard Corpsmen or something and that distinction allows them to carry M4s and long rifles. Lets take it one further and ask why 18D's are able to carry weapons larger than a sidearm?

[Lor 0]

I have no firsthand experience, but according to Wikipedia:

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_Medic)

"For many years, most medics have carried at least a side arm like the handgun and knife (and now, frequently a rifle, carbine or submachine gun), to be used as a defensive weapon.

Medical personnel may be armed, but may only use their weapons to protect themselves or the wounded and sick in their care.

If they use their arms offensively (i.e. attacking or assaulting), or carry arms that qualify as offensive (such as a sniper rifle, machine gun or grenade launcher), they then sacrifice their protection under the Geneva Conventions. Generally, a medic holding his/her weapon is considered to be an armed, military threat. According to the Geneva Convention, knowingly firing at a medic wearing clear insignia is a war crime."

So medics are allowed to carry rifles, and this does not automatically sacrifice their protection under the Geneva convention, as long as they are only acting defensively. As soon as they decide to chuck a few rounds at the enemy, they've given up their protected status.

There's also a picture in the article of Norwegian medics, both wielding rifles.

[4 IN 1 0]

but isnt the line between offensive and defensive is very thin?  

(and i dont think those monkeys give a shit about war crime)

[-Puma- 2]

but isnt the line between offensive and defensive is very thin?

(and i dont think those monkeys give a shit about war crime)

agreed. Show me a conflict that has followed the geneva agreement?? Even UN personell can't follow it, and I bet during a firefight, u dont pop ur head out and observe if a medic is shooting some1 in self defence or not. And oppose to those"monkey's" americans shoots everything that moves, and keep yelling "get that mother*****", like 15 year old CS player (wich i quess they really are). sure in iraq theres these fighters coming all over the middle east, just to blow them selfs up in market place, but a good bunch

of iraqis are just trying to keep the occupation out(now saddam gone us has no right to keep occupying the country).

[cl10k 0]

i'm not sure about the us medics, but german medics all carried small arms like pistols, uzis, g3 or g36. i was in the medical service for 5 years and afaik the geneva agreement doesn't prevent medics from carrying rifles, but only for selfdefense.

edit: my fault, lor already explained it...

[4 IN 1 0]

in the iraq case its not that simple Puma, but its a topic in off-topic

anyway i see no problem for letting medic to carry rifle, i usually dont shoot that much as a medic anyway(killing EI near downed buddys, a few rounds as covering fire so that i could get from point A to point B etc) no MGs, no ATs, just rifle, ammo, a few smoke nades(BI one got frag nades isnt it? aint these are offensive weapons?)would be good to replace some slot with limited bandage packs or other medical supply packs together with better medical sim, but thats too much to ask from BI i think

edit: also its something to do with enemy AIs, in most case they are more interested on taking out enemys who shoot at them instead of enemy who dont shoot at them, so if you dont shoot at them that offen, your chance of getting out alive is higher, for more info about "why medic shouldnt shoot too much", read Dslyecxi's TTP

[Lor 0]

but isnt the line between offensive and defensive is very thin?

(and i dont think those monkeys give a shit about war crime)

agreed. Show me a conflict that has followed the geneva agreement?? Even UN personell can't follow it, and I bet during a firefight, u dont pop ur head out and observe if a medic is shooting some1 in self defence or not. And oppose to those"monkey's" americans shoots everything that moves, and keep yelling "get that mother*****", like 15 year old CS player (wich i quess they really are). sure in iraq theres these fighters coming all over the middle east, just to blow them selfs up in market place, but a good bunch

of iraqis are just trying to keep the occupation out(now saddam gone us has no right to keep occupying the country).

Well guys, I was just reporting what the Geneva conventions, and military convention say - I think the OP was just asking whether medics do routinely carry rifles which is contrary to his experience. They do.

I think discussion of the ethics of the situation beyond a simple statement of facts is fruitless, and would possibly encourage trolling. So let's just talk about whether medics do or do not carry rifles. =)

[OblivionX 0]

Swedish platoon medic here. Ten years ago we carried the Ak 5 . Some years earlier the Swedish medics carried pistols(Glock 17 I think it was, but not really sure as I never wore it). Im not sure what the Swedish medics use these days.

We had the weapon only to protect ourself and the injured. As long as we carried the red cross on our shoulder we were not allowed to initiate combat.

[shadow 6]

And oppose to those"monkey's" americans shoots everything that moves, and keep yelling "get that mother*****", like 15 year old CS player (wich i quess they really are).

If you cant argue without resorting to flaming, dont post at all.

[Kay 0]

And oppose to those"monkey's" americans shoots everything that moves, and keep yelling "get that mother*****", like 15 year old CS player (wich i quess they really are).

What do you want them to say? "Would you mind slinging a projectile at that gentlemen over there?"

Ever hear of combat morale?

[frederf 0]

If you could even discern what he was trying to say, Shadow, you're a better man than I.

The armed medic thread is always a hilarious mishmash of folklore, misinformation, made up stuff, and the truth. Honestly I don't know if they should be armed our not legally and all that.

Legality aside, it's just a smart idea for a medic to focus on his job instead of being a big target by firing a lot.

[deady 0]

There are no rules in war thesedays!

[cl10k 0]

wrong! we should stay true to our principles and ideals - no matter what others might do!

[Sniperdoc 0]

wrong! we should stay true to our principles and ideals - no matter what others might do!

Ditto.

As far as I know, 18D's give up their Geneva Convention status anyways because they're usually attached to a SpecOps unit of some kind. While I was in, I took the 18D "clep" course... But, I was too lazy to finish it. So, I have like the first 5 books... Anatomy and Physiology, Pathology, etc... I don't remember what the others were... But, I'm not 100% sure on the 18D thing. I'm just taking an educated guess.

I never had to give it up when I was with STA or Regimental Recon... I was always located at the OP while they were at their FFPs. When someone got hit, I went in to get them, to drag them to the OP, perform what duties I could and then out to emergency evac site for extract.

I am surprised that the same principles that the Army has for their medics, using the M16, doesn't apply to the FMF Corpsman. I remember going through FMF Medical School and getting told that we could shoot back as long as we heard the bullets whizzing over our heads... who's to decide if those bullets were meant for us medics or not? Always some kind of loophole, you know? But then, my little M9 sure as hell wasn't going to start peggin' people at 300yds

Hell, I don't think that we, just as Corpsmen ever went to a range to shoot the M16. The only reason I was able to use the M16 was while we were on the ranges when I was with my Marines. And I got lucky because, I always got to shoot after the guys were done on a regular basis. Being with STA helped too because it allowed me to get the training I needed to be proficient in calculating windage and elevation, observation techniques, etc... training that you wouldn't even THINK about getting as a plain 0000 Corpsman or an 8404 FMF Corpsman. That indoc was definitely the worst and best thing I've ever done as a Corpsman.

[dentist guba 0]

Quote[/b] ]not like all the nations the US fights adhere to the Geneva Laws in any case.

yeah because sending prisoners to foreign prison camps to be beaten and friendly firing because of not following identification rules is really allowed by the geneva convention.

[-Puma- 2]

And oppose to those"monkey's" americans shoots everything that moves, and keep yelling "get that mother*****", like 15 year old CS player (wich i quess they really are).

What do you want them to say? "Would you mind slinging a projectile at that gentlemen over there?"

Ever hear of combat morale?

yeah but it's looking kinda rediculus, when 18 something kids shooting and yelling all kinds of crap, And i bet that they just fire the guns for fun, cuz the insurgents most likely use hit and run tactics anyways

erm anyways, somekinda script for arma would be nice, that uses this geneve convention stuff at advantage. Like ai don't shoot at medic unless hes engaging in firefight or so

[Clavicula_nox4817 0]

Quote[/b] ] And i bet that they just fire the guns for fun, cuz the insurgents most likely use hit and run tactics anyways

And I bet you have no idea what you're talking about.

Quote[/b] ]As far as I know, 18D's give up their Geneva Convention status anyways because they're usually attached to a SpecOps unit of some kind. While I was in, I took the 18D "clep" course... But, I was too lazy to finish it. So, I have like the first 5 books... Anatomy and Physiology, Pathology, etc... I don't remember what the others were... But, I'm not 100% sure on the 18D thing. I'm just taking an educated guess.

Well, 18D is a Special Forces MOS. I've never heard of anyone in 18 CMF going from Group to a regular line unit and still fulfilling an 18 series slot.

Quote[/b] ]erm anyways, somekinda script for arma would be nice, that uses this geneve convention stuff at advantage. Like ai don't shoot at medic unless hes engaging in firefight or so

Maybe, but the Geneva Convention only applies to uniformed soldiers of a sovereign nation. It would be a decent idea if it were something that the mission designer could control rather than a global hardcoded event simply because there are quite a few warfighters in the world whom are not protected by the convention.

[MehMan 0]

Puma, can you just cut the damn flamebaiting and plain insulting?

[Sniperdoc 0]

Well, 18D is a Special Forces MOS. I've never heard of anyone in 18 CMF going from Group to a regular line unit and still fulfilling an 18 series slot.

Well, for Navy Corpsmen to do the 18D course, I guess it depends on HOW it's taken. If you're doing the book version course I guess you're qualified, but not necessarily SF material.

I do know that Independent Duty Corpsmen had to take that course, because it did teach you general invasive techniques that let you take your skills to a higher level if you needed to... i.e. you really didn't know how exactly to perform an Apendectomy, but because of your knowledge in Anatomy, surgical skills, pathology, pharmocology (for treatment thereafter), you could do the Apendectomy anyways. Just a guess on that one...

Better to know the basics than not to know anything in that case.

Guess what I'm trying to say is that just because a Corpsman was 18D trained, doesn't mean he has to be in SpecOps. I guess for the Army its different, because that IS the MOS... for Corpsmen, it's just additional knowledge/certification.

[Clavicula_nox4817 0]

Well, 18D is a Special Forces MOS. I've never heard of anyone in 18 CMF going from Group to a regular line unit and still fulfilling an 18 series slot.

Well, for Navy Corpsmen to do the 18D course, I guess it depends on HOW it's taken. If you're doing the book version course I guess you're qualified, but not necessarily SF material.

I do know that Independent Duty Corpsmen had to take that course, because it did teach you general invasive techniques that let you take your skills to a higher level if you needed to... i.e. you really didn't know how exactly to perform an Apendectomy, but because of your knowledge in Anatomy, surgical skills, pathology, pharmocology (for treatment thereafter), you could do the Apendectomy anyways. Just a guess on that one...

Better to know the basics than not to know anything in that case.

Guess what I'm trying to say is that just because a Corpsman was 18D trained, doesn't mean he has to be in SpecOps. I guess for the Army its different, because that IS the MOS... for Corpsmen, it's just additional knowledge/certification.

I see what you're saying, it's just another big difference between branches. If I recall, 18D "full" course is something like..1 1/2-2 years..something like that.

Personally, I'd rather medics get as much training as possible.

[Sniperdoc 0]

I see what you're saying, it's just another big difference between branches. If I recall, 18D "full" course is something like..1 1/2-2 years..something like that.

Personally, I'd rather medics get as much training as possible.

We Corpsman usually did get a lot of training:)

I remember when I just got out, I had an Army Recruiter tell me that he'd give me a 50K re-enlistment bonus... woulda been nice, but my gf at the time didn't want me to go back in... hell... ex-now... also married to an Army Major... heh... what a kick in the nuts... From Enlisted Navy to Army Officer bah... Go Navy, Beat Army!!! Well, I hope you guys win one soon... it's getting boring watching the game.

My current gf actually graduated from the Naval Academy...

[operation madman 0]

but isnt the line between offensive and defensive is very thin?

(and i dont think those monkeys give a shit about war crime)

Edited for content.

-- Franze