ArmA Brain drain and elitist behaviour.

[granQ 293]

I see a "trend" in ArmA that was started with OFP, alot of "brians" in the community has been banned for silly things on the board.

Way back then, let me point on Toadlife that made awesome scripts in the early dawn of OFP, he mentioned in third person that he might had a crack installed on his computer and got banned.

Now I feel we getting more and more people that the mods ban/warn while we get "elitist" teams, like put people in groups like "modmakers", "CWR" team.

For O2 there was "some selected few" that got acesses to the tools and whats going on now, well. Officially nothing.

There is the tone of the mods, that I can't speak about without getting my ass another warning.

Is this the enviorment BIS want to create for the community, where only "followers" are allowed. It goes on to the bug trackers where people reporting bugs can here

"Thats not how you supposed to play the game".

Seriously, things need to change here or I expect a serious brain drain from the BIS board, (already happing actually).

This is far from the first thread I started to get a discussion going about what needs to be changed, however they tend to get locked for one reason or another (most of the case because you not allowed to critize, comment on mods).

Infact the rules gets longer and longer while words like "guidelines and helps" just get shorter.

[sickboy 13]

I agree on most of your points granQ. But I am unsure if making another thread about it will change or solve the issue.

Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't ... but maybe we should get some signatures (maybe through this thread) and hand it over in a letter directly to Marek and Suma?

I think everything at BIS apart from getting the US Release out is on hold... My guess is that when the Release is out and they have some more breathing space again... We will start seeying more structural changes or at least more "Ears" for these things, altough I think they have always been pretty hard in these matters (altough im not running around at the BIS forums that long though)

I think that the Mods can Barely say anything in these threads, as they are here to make us follow the forum rules and not undermine them... Kinda a case of barking against the wrong tree.

[Maddmatt 1]

Toadlife was banned? Damn.

GranQ, you have some good points.

I realise the mods don't get payed or anything, but some of their decisions are plain wrong. The incident with the guy posting the mass TK video in the ArmA video thread was an example of that.

This thread will probably get locked, the mods don't like people criticizing them or the rules .

[sickboy 13]

Toadlife was banned? Damn.

I guess that's already years ago though.

Quote[/b] ]I realise the mods don't get payed or anything, but some of their decisions are plain wrong. The incident with the guy posting the mass TK video in the ArmA video thread was an example of that.

Mods are also ppl, and they can make mistakes just as any other... I agree that it was wrong, but that's what ppl sometimes do... making the wrong calls.

And in the end, it was reverted right? That's what counts.

Quote[/b] ]This thread will probably get locked, the mods don't like people criticizing them or the rules

I don't think it has to do with the mods not liking it. It's simply a rule; Do not critize the Mods Decisions nor the forum rules <span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'>IN THE PUBLIC</span>, nothing stops you/me/us/them to speak up in a PM to them or to Marek/Suma, or per e-mail or per whatever...

Everytime when ppl do critisize in the public anyway, even how sincere their case is, in the end, it's still against the rules and will be dealth with I guess.

I agree that these rules can be misused aswell to selectively allow a bit here, and disallow a bit there, which is unfair of coarse. Still I think at the end of the day, we simply must follow what is dictated in the rules. They don't state that you aren't allowed to discuss them or take it up with them, they state that they don't want it in the public, or at least that's how I experience them

[granQ 293]

Toadlife was banned? Damn.

I guess that's already years ago though.

It's simply a rule; Do not critize the Mods Decisions nor the forum rules <span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'>IN THE PUBLIC</span>, nothing stops you/me/us/them to speak up in a PM to them or to Marek/Suma, or per e-mail or per whatever...

yes, i am oldie

and its the problem, the "not in public", a healthy discussion to get people understand, share the same view and "hippie stuff" like that requires that discussions about rules, action, warning level threats and so on to be taken in public.

Its the simple rule about what makes a socity healthy that the "law" can be questioned. This is also to help the mods to improve and to get more understanding from the members.

[DaRat 0]

Don't get my joindate or postcount wrong here, I'm a long time viewer, late joiner.

And yes, I agree with you GranQ + others, the atmousphere here recently has been very repressed. Let's just say that it proves your point when this topic gets locked and/or you get another WB

[sickboy 13]

Then I guess we should first get that rule out of the way before we really start on getting the other issues gone.

I personally think that the rules are built, simply to protect many threads and forums... The problem you create with allowing people to question the mods choices etc. etc. is that you create a lot of off-topic (maybe even pages) inside a discussion thread.  At least, this is one of the reasons for me to disallow the discussion of decisions inside the specific threads, but allow the discussion of them in a specific thread for it or by private message.

Another thing is that there usually is a lot of feeling (angryness, bad words blablal) in the posts that come in such threads. I guess in that way, it's better to have the rule as it is....

But, I guess allowing such discussions to take place in a specific thread for it would be a good idea,  could even be the "Ask a moderator" thread...

Still I think we should first get the rule against Discussing those things in the Public, out of the way, before we should start the discussion. At least, that would in my eyes be the proper coarse of action.

[Twycross448 0]

@GranQ

Always remember the No 1 rule regarding discussion fora on the net:

Freedom of speech is a lie.

Fora are private places. They aren't democracies, they are dictatorships. Either you play by the rules set forth by the owners or you get the hell out.

So far, I have not seen a single forum where it is handled any different. True, some may have more lax rules than others, but in the end, not my that much.

While in an ideal society free discussions would be what one should aim for, in the real world, sadly there are always trolls, idiots, spammers and the assorted rest of the scum of the internet to painfully remind you why you need a mine field, barbed wire and attack dogs to protect your forum. ^_^"

For the record, I would go for open, honest discussions too, but know that likely is an unattainable goal.

Out.

EDIT: Sickboy (get better soon, best wishes to you ) was faster.

[sickboy 13]

@GranQ

Always remember the No 1 rule regarding discussion fora on the net:

Freedom of speech is a lie.

Fora are private places. They aren't democracies, they are dictatorships. Either you play by the rules set forth by the owners or you get the hell out...

You got some very strong points there m8! And also nicely brought in words, I wish I spoke them )

... It works the same as with having your own home and your own company...

There are the boundaries by the law, and there are the boundaries that you as housekeeper/shopkeeper setup, you are the one in charge and you decide what you allow and what you do not.

But do not get me wrong, I vouch for sure for more opener discussions especially with the persons more closer to BIS, the persons that either got something to say, or have a lot of know-how about the company or whatsoever.

Quote[/b] ]EDIT: Sickboy (get better soon, best wishes to you  ) was faster.

There is no Cure m8... I'm Sick for life

[granQ 293]

Let me use two exempels.

In sweden its illegal to say something bad about *insert minority group here*, however its totaly legal to discuss that law in public, or even discuss "was that really against the rules" ?

I am not asking the mods to let people spam, do whatever.. but when they give a warning level to a guy and many people speaks up "wait a second, that isnt so bad, shouldnt that be allowed" and the thread gets locked and people that asked "isnt this a greyzone" gets a warning level because they question the mods decision.

I wished you visited more forums, I seen (and been/are moderator on forums/chats) and there is way better way to handle things more friendly then whats going on here.

EDIT. I know one swedish forum that works kinda the same, its a "militaryphotos" type. With 90% male, from 15-40. While on backpacking community with males, females, all ages and from communism to rightwinged racisit.. guess where the mods are most friendly and open for discussion and I think it goes without saying that the backpacking forum doesnt have as many locked threads.

Page 1, 2 discussion,

Page 3, action from mod and questions about it.

Page 4,5 back on topic..

It isnt dangerous to allow the "public" to ask wtf you are doing, unless you can't stand for it in the public.

[sickboy 13]

Let me use two exempels.

In sweden its illegal to say something bad about *insert minority group here*, however its totaly legal to discuss that law in public, or even discuss "was that really against the rules" ?

I am not asking the mods to let people spam, do whatever.. but when they give a warning level to a guy and many people speaks up "wait a second, that isnt so bad, shouldnt that be allowed" and the thread gets locked and people that asked "isnt this a greyzone" gets a warning level because the question the mods.

I wished you visited more forums, I seen (and been/are moderator on forums/chats) and there is way better way to handle things more friendly then whats going on here.

Well, I still agree with you GranQ, I only tried to point out some of the reasons that they may have for their choices.

I still agree that we could go a lot more open etc, but I guess it's the lack of a community manager, the busy-schedule of the BIS-men, and Moderators that are probably tied with the hands behind back that make this quite hard.

None of the Moderators, to my knowledge, is allowed to simply change a rule, or not act if they spot something that is against the rules...

Quote[/b] ]It isnt dangerous to allow the "public" to ask wtf you are doing, unless you can't stand for it in the public.

But I guess that's not something for Mods to answer on, but for the Policy-Creators... And I don't think they will even notice this thread, especially not if it will be locked later on... As such I really think we oughta get the message to the people that matter instead of bouncing against the mod-blockage

btw the forums you are speaking about, are they ran by companies or ran by individuals, aka community, clan or some kind of fan forums etc? I think there is a huge difference on that aswell.

[Hudson 0]

Now I feel we getting more and more people that the mods ban/warn while we get "elitist" teams, like put people in groups like "modmakers", "CWR" team.

Im only going to touch on this one thing you said because its a bit silly I think. These arnt "elitist" teams. They are made up of volunteers. BIS asked years ago for players to beta test oxygen light, they were made "Mod Makers". About a month ago they asked for volunteers to make CWR, maybe 30 people signed up on the wiki. BIS picked a team from the volunteers to make CWR. I can assure you being on the CWR team I get no special privilages, no warnings removed, no ability to say whatever I want to whoever without consequence, certinaly didnt get a cookie, not even an audience with the grand masters themselves.

As for people getting away with a little to much on these boards I agree. And I hope sickboy is right when he says....

Quote[/b] ]I think everything at BIS apart from getting the US Release out is on hold... My guess is that when the Release is out and they have some more breathing space again... We will start seeying more structural changes or at least more "Ears" for these things, altough I think they have always been pretty hard in these matters (altough im not running around at the BIS forums that long though)

I think that the Mods can Barely say anything in these threads, as they are here to make us follow the forum rules and not undermine them... Kinda a case of barking against the wrong tree.

Maybe BIS will regain some sense of peace after the US release and will be able to better police the boards or appoint those that are willing to do so.

[Dallas 9]

There are quite a few things I like to address...

This here is a fairly big community, 50.000 members and one milion posts. It's also the boards of the official company. They have to have specific rules, BI boards has a refined set and their moderators enforce these. Hacks and Cracks cannot be tollerated and TK videos must be considered trolling at best. Hackers and organized teamkillers excersise their personal freedom granted by total anonymity to ruin servers. You cannot allow such controversial members, member who terrorize the game or players who publicly announce they don't have a legal copy.

As for testing unreleased tool among a select few is standart protocol.

I believe all issues regarding moderating should be raised in PM, because public criticism in open threads often tend to snowball targeting someone specific. BI moderators are busy bees, they read everything... Everything! There's hardly need for more threads when you already got an open door with 'Ask a mod'.

[hoz 0]

Topics such as this should be contained to the Ask A Mod thread.

If you have a problem with a moderator or how moderating is done then PM Shadow or the moderator.