Radar...

[daikan 1]

ok who else thinks that the magic 'radar' needs to be revisited? my suggestions:

1. remove it from tanks (except shilka and maybe vulcan)

2. it should be generally dumbed down, especially when aquiring ground based objects

-> visual ID should be the prime source when aquiring ground targets (the upcoming view distance patch will help improve things a lot).

3. make it switchable and detectable in order to allow for 'stealth' operation

-> all vehicles equipped with radar should be able to switch it off and some aircraft should have a passive radar warning system.

discuss!

[Big Dawg KS 6]

Quote[/b] ]2. it should be generally dumbed down, especially when aquiring ground based objects

-> visual ID should be the prime source when aquiring ground targets (the upcoming view distance patch will help improve things a lot).

3. make it switchable and detectable in order to allow for 'stealth' operation

-> all vehicles equipped with radar should be able to switch it off and some aircraft should have a passive radar warning system.

The whole radar system needs an overhaul for it to be realistic, but such a thing is better saved for Game 2. It's probably too late for ArmA to undergo such drastic modifications to it's engine, so you should suggest overall improvement of the whole radar system for BI's next game.

The radar can easily be disabled for tanks with no engine modification, so if you're into addon making you can make a small mod for it.

[opteryx 1562]

What radar?

[max power 21]

The radar is a a gameplay aid that's meant to replace a lot of the situational awareness and systems that you lose in the simulation and to make the player competetive with the AI, I think.

[klamacz 447]

Radar in Arma is the same thing as in OFP. Its arcadic, non-realistic and propably good only in SP. Well, playing in MP with radars is always like: lock, fire, forget. Anyone smart in tank rules the field.

Only one thing I like is possibility to recon enemy armoured forces with heli, but its unrealistic also.

Simpliest way to make it realistic is disable long range radars for ground vehicles and leave it for aircrafts, but disable locking targets. Like:

- tanks: radar is working as a visual/IR device - is finding vehicles (any, with or without driver) but only for 500 metres

- helis: radar is working as ground radar and is finding vehicles (any) to 4000 metres.

That's just a example and AFAIK its impossible without access to engine code, making it simply a BIS job.

[Pierrot 0]

2. it should be generally dumbed down, especially when aquiring ground based objects

-> visual ID should be the prime source when aquiring ground targets (the upcoming view distance patch will help improve things a lot).

Completely agreed!

Acquiring ground targets must be based on visual ID. Radar cannot identify foe or friendly and no ground object has IFF. Identifying ground targets is left to pilot's or gunner's eye even in the 21th century.

But OFP and ArmA's radar CAN identify foe or friendly. I hope BIS remove this TOO useful function from radar in GAME2.

Quote[/b] ]The whole radar system needs an overhaul for it to be realistic, but such a thing is better saved for Game 2.

I am very pessimistic about it. Seeing ArmA, I guess the dev team is not familiar with today's radar system or does not have skill to implement radar to their simulation game.

[Dwarden 1124]

well if You want to use visual ID instead of radar then please first CLEAN up gunner view optic (sometimes i got problem visual ID even whole vehicle due to dirt) ...

lol anyway i agree that radar is very often way too powerful for beyond visibility range fire ...

[dentist guba 0]

so you want to make the tanks even more ww2 like than they already are?

[maxqubit 1]

2.  it should be generally dumbed down, especially when aquiring ground based objects

-> visual ID should be the prime source when aquiring ground targets (the upcoming view distance patch will help improve things a lot).

Completely agreed!

Acquiring ground targets must be based on visual ID. Radar cannot identify foe or friendly and no ground object has IFF. Identifying ground targets is left to pilot's or gunner's eye even in the 21th century.

But OFP and ArmA's radar CAN identify foe or friendly. I hope BIS remove this TOO useful function from radar in GAME2.

Quote[/b] ]The whole radar system needs an overhaul for it to be realistic, but such a thing is better saved for Game 2.

I am very pessimistic about it. ??? Seeing ArmA, I guess the dev team is not familiar with today's radar system or does not have skill to implement radar to their simulation game.

Hmmm, although i'm just a gamer, i have to agree on the radar thing. Seeing the Cobra radar coming up with 'UAZ with MG' info seems to be 'too much arcade' even for me:)

That the radar shows ground targets seems logic, but that it identifies it seems too much.

So remove the identifiying part and it becomes a lot better. You'd have to identify it yourself visually (or by other info like location known stuff)

But to say that this is impossible in ArmA???? Imho it is about REMOVING some logic. But that surely wouldn't be hard to accomplish. Just stick to the white boxes saying 'armor' i.s.o. bringing up the red boxes with 'Shilka'. I imagine it to be in some kind of option. Oh yes, and of course also white boxes for friendlies so if you fire to hastily you'd end up killing your own troops.

Imo it could be easily implemented and would add a lot to the tension (and to the realism)

Something for a future patch i'd imagine

Somebody put it in the WiKi wishlist already?

[hoot 0]

Seeing ArmA, I guess the dev team is not familiar with today's radar system or does not have skill to implement radar to their simulation game.

Nobody would ever implement a real radarsystem to a game that simulates and calculates so much else, not only because of missing data of environmental conditions but also of missing power that is needed to simulate a 'today's radarsystem', plus gamelogics.

It is more about making the player think it's real and that, according to your wishes, is certainly scriptable (see modded jammers for OFP creating lots of faked objects visible on displays).

There are some 'fanatics' along the way. Former tankcrews who are missing this and that, former infantrymen or folks still in service, finding this and that and also that and this to be unrealistic. Helo pilots evaluating the flightmodel as somehow not really realistic and undersea divers are going to cry because BIS 'doesn't have the skills' to implement their arm. Curious but typic.

ArmA is a game with a good percentage rate of simulation, but it lasts as a game and not as a serious military hardcore simulation like VBS2, therefore finding a happy medium is a must and that of course starts with the coders who have to decide what to withdraw and what to have in the game.

I agree with plaintiff1 and if you don't like it, mod it away like KyleSarnik suggested.

[ThePredator 0]

I don't want to advertise my work, but if you guys could take a look at Modern Warfare and tell me, what you like or dislike about the missing radar (I made some mistakes, the CRRC for example has now a radar which was intended for the RHIB) I could further improve things.

In my opinion the radar, especially for tanks, was a fun killer. You could see unmanned vehicles and objects and you don't even have to see the stuff. Actually, without the radar (and 3rd person view turned off) tank combat is much more intense. You have to stop to listen or turn the head out to hear what's going on.

[Killerwatt 0]

All this talk about battlefield situational awareness and not even a sniff of a mention of AWACS. In my opinion the BIS radar simply gives us some of the situational awareness that the presence of AWACS over the battlefield would provide. Do you really believe that the US would get into a conflict on an island of the size of Sahrini without using AWACS?

[NoRailgunner 0]

Main battle tanks, armoured combat vehicles and air defence systems without modern technics??

The real targeting functions in M1A1 Abrams gives accurate targeting data to a range of 8,000m!

@daikan

Who is playing modern combat simulation like ArmA with "medieval conditions"?

[daikan 1]

so you want to make the tanks even more ww2 like than they already are?

there's nothing ww2-like about having tanks without an instant 360° target aquisition system. afaik no modern tank has a built-in radar system, everything is based on visual contact. and situational awareness is always a big problem when commanding a tank, even today. that's the reason why teamwork and maneuvering as part of a combined unit are most crucial.

the main reason i suggested the radar overhaul is fun and immersion. my own experience is that the more realistic the weapon system are modeled the more fun and rewarding the resulting gameplay will be. the only problem here is maintaining a balanced battlefield technology-wise.

[Blue_Flight 0]

I think that Kegetys had a working Air to Air Radar in OFP but if I remember right there were some issues with it.

The Bushwars mod claimed that they had also a working A/A Radar, but it was also for OFP.

As I´m not a VBS owner i cannot tell that it´s true but I thought that the F/A-18 from the ADF Addon had a working A/A and A/G Radar.

[NoRailgunner 0]

@daikan

Quote[/b] ]afaik no modern tank has a built-in radar system, everything is based on visual contact.

Some facts about M1A1:

"The Commander's station is equipped with six periscopes which provide all round 360 degree view. The Independent Thermal Viewer (ITV) provides him with independent, stabilized day and night vision with a 360 degree view, automatic sector scanning, automatic target cueing of the Gunner's sight with no need for verbal communication, and a complete back-up fire control system - the Commander is capable of firing the main gun independent of the Gunner."

"The Gunner's Primary Sight..

The thermal image is displayed in the eyepiece of the Gunner's sight together with the range measurement to within 10 meters of accuracy, from a Hughes laser range finder, which is integrated into all of the fire control systems. The Abrams also has an onboard digital fire control computer. Range data from the laser rangefinder is transferred directly to the fire control computer, which automatically calculates the fire control solution. The data includes 1) the lead angle measurement, 2) the bend of the gun measured by the muzzle reference system of the main armament, 3) wind velocity measurement from a wind sensor on the roof of the turret and 4) the data from a pendulum static cant sensor located at the center of the turret roof. The Gunner or Commander manually inputs the data on the ammunition type and temperature, and the barometric pressure and the weapon is prepared for engagement."

"The Loader's station is located on the left side of the turret and has no special fire control equipment."

"The Driver's station is located at the center front of the hull. The Driver is in a semi-reclined position when his hatch is closed, as it must be whenever the vehicle is in operation. His station is equipped with a standard array of gages and monitors reflecting the condition of vehicle fluid levels, batteries and electrical equipment. The Driver has either three observation periscopes or two periscopes on either side and a central image intensifying ("Starlight") periscope for night vision. The periscopes provide 120 degrees field of view. The Driver's night vision equipment enables the tank to maneuver at normal daytime driving speeds in darkness and in poor visibility conditions such as in the dust and smoke encountered on the battlefield."

more informations

FAS - M1 Main Battle Tank

"maintaining a balanced battlefield technology" - for all vehicles and weapons?

ArmA is an combat simulation game.... if you don't like modern warfare wait till some "fun-mods" are final

[wamingo 1]

Mowing down a full convoy by simply tabbing rapidly while firing seaking missiles is definately too easy.

Perhaps it would be nice if a perfect lock would take several seconds to achieve. That would be pretty simple to do.

Make it depend on range, but with some minimum time. And still breaking when line of sight is lost.

Could make a "TONE"/indicator thing for added effect

And perhaps a difficulty/server setting made radar simply not IFF.

As for anything more much complicated (more real radar) I'd say game2.. Or community mod.

[dentist guba 0]

Quote[/b] ]so you want to make the tanks even more ww2 like than they already are?

there's nothing ww2-like about having tanks without an instant 360° target aquisition system. afaik no modern tank has a built-in radar system, everything is based on visual contact. and situational awareness is always a big problem when commanding a tank, even today. that's the reason why teamwork and maneuvering as part of a combined unit are most crucial.

the main reason i suggested the radar overhaul is fun and immersion. my own experience is that the more realistic the weapon system are modeled the more fun and rewarding the resulting gameplay will be. the only problem here is maintaining a balanced battlefield technology-wise.

i meant that there are many modern technologies which are not included. i agree it should have an overhaul but simply disabling it wouldn,t work, it would have to include all of the technologies available in a tank. ARMA players are already complaining that tank combat is too hard so anything exept a complete rebuilding would make it worse. another thing to consider is the fact that real life tank crews have to go through years of training which is not practical in a game-people would never touch the tanks again. it would be good though if the player had to figure out what something is.

[daikan 1]

ArmA is a game with a good percentage rate of simulation, but it lasts as a game and not as a serious military hardcore simulation like VBS2, therefore finding a happy medium is a must and that of course starts with the coders who have to decide what to withdraw and what to have in the game.

i agree that a game is a game (even if it's advertised as the 'ultimate combat simulation' and as such it will always have to make simplifications.

but my point is that having a radar or 'magic eye' like the one in game right now simply ruins gameplay.

IMHO features in a multiplayer-enabled game should focus on teamplay and communication. for instance i could think of a 'radar' where targets are only displayed if they have been identified by other friendly units (something like player-driven awacs..), thus simulating a simple communication channel complete with human factor and 'fog of war'. but they should neither update nor identify automatically and 100% reliably.

Quote[/b] ]I agree with plaintiff1 and if you don't like it, mod it away like KyleSarnik suggested.

of course it's a good start being able to simply 'mod it away'. i wasn't quite sure if this is possible at all but if so: cool.

but i see great potential for more immersion and tactical variation if a system like radar is being used a tad bit more like in real life.. it doesn't need to be modeled entirely, just the aspects that make it more interesting for gameplay like i mentioned in my opening post.

[MehMan 0]

ArmA is an combat simulation game.... if you don't like modern warfare wait till some "fun-mods" are final  

Does it also find and indentify the target instead of you? Nope. That's the issue here. It identifys the target and finds it automaticly.

I think something could work to put the target on radar with the right click report. Maybe a work around with that could be implemented, but I'd imagine it'd be hard.

[Heatseeker 0]

The radar is much needed on ground vehicles now, more than what it was or is in OPF if you are battling a.i. If you want to find out why play the SP mission Armored Fist. A T72 and BMP killed my 3 abrams before my men even considered opening fire, wrong hdr lighting makes everything too dark inside the comanders turret, sights are dirty and have no magnification... its already close to impossible how it is.

[daikan 1]

The radar is much needed on ground vehicles now, more than what it was or is in OPF if you are battling a.i.

I'd say fix the A.I. rather than give us tools that ruin MP gameplay. or at least disable them in MP.

well, i know it's not easy to fix A.I. ... but then again, who plays ArmA in SP mode anyway??  

[Heatseeker 0]

well, i know it's not easy to fix A.I. ... but then again, who plays ArmA in SP mode anyway??

Me, i play SP and MP coop, i didnt know i was the only one...

[MehMan 0]

You're not. I don't like the TKing public servers.

[wamingo 1]

Agreed Heatseeker. I played that mission 5 times and couldn't complete it the proper way. Grabbed an rpg for the last base.

The ai is too aware and too overpowered. Lack of zoom, and HDR problems doesn't help either. Do something about those things first. Then make the radar less simple.