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smellyjelly

Health system

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I'm sure I'm the only one who thinks this, but I think the health system needs to be tweaked.

Leg: When shot in the legs our character shouldn't be able to walk. This was done fine, except we could still stand, that needs to be fixed. Perhaps the left/right bottom of the screen should also turn a light shade of red to indicate that we've been hit because I often find myself going into 3rd person view to check and make sure. I'd say four hits here max until we die. Of course stronger weapons would take less though.

Arm: When shot in the arms our accuracy should decrease greatly except when prone, and the recoil should increase a little to a lot, depending on the power of the weapon being shot. The mid-sides of the screen should lightly turn a shade of red. After three shots in the arm we would die.

Chest: After being shot in the chest once our character should automatically fall into prone position. We wouldn't be able to get up or crawl around much. The accuracy of all the weapons would be somewhat decreased. The whole screen would slowly start to turn red, from the outside towards the center, eventually going faster and maybe the transparency fading in and out for extra effect. After about ten to twenty seconds, when the screen turns full red, we'd die. All of that is assuming we are only shot one time, (possibly once before if it was a pistol), because anymore hits and we'd die.

Head: Finally, I'm at the head. This would be a one shot kill. The screen would quickly fade to red as we suddenly fall to the ground.

Another change that I feel may be interesting is if your vision would sharpen when shot. I would imagine that with all the andrenaline, that's bound to happen. If not, then the screen could also get blurry.

I don't know, that's how I feel it should be. Although, I'm going to admit now that I'm not in the army, and I've never been shot. I'd also like to mention that I prefer this system more than BF2's "getting shot twenty times before dying" and CSS's getting shot without any lasting reproductions.

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Sounds good. Perhaps I've been playing Battlefield a bit too much, but BIS could also implement a defibrilator if the system was similar to your idea.

At the moment, when you die, you're gone. Even if a script gives you full health again, you still have to end or restart.

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Quote[/b] ]when you die, you're gone.

Isn't that basicly the general idea of dying? huh.gif

Anyways, I agree to some extent, the damage system is not as good as it could be but I guess it's not doable to change it for this game at this point..

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Sounds good. Perhaps I've been playing Battlefield a bit too much, but BIS could also implement a defibrilator if the system was similar to your idea.

At the moment, when you die, you're gone. Even if a script gives you full health again, you still have to end or restart.

Not to be done by BI, tbh, completely doable already by mission makers.

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Quote[/b] ]when you die, you're gone.

Isn't that basicly the general idea of dying?  huh.gif

Anyways, I agree to some extent, the damage system is not as good as it could be but I guess it's not doable to change it for this game at this point..

I meant that, for instance, instead of "dying" you could also be fatally injured or traumatized to a point where you could be dead, but a medic could try and revive you if you're not too far gone.

It's badly implemented in Battlefield but I think BIS could do better.

(In Battlefield you can get a headshot from a sniper rifle and a team mate can revive you... even multiple times to infinity. Basically the defbrillator is a magical tool that heals even 100% fatal wounds and resores your health)

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What is the point: If medic keeps man alive (but severly injured = not fit to fight), it still doesn't bring any benefits/aspects to game. They aren't comming back to battle, not even in campaigns as those usually last too short time for severly injured guy to recover + ArmA and OFP doesn't focus on tracking some personalities. In games like Jagged alliance and X-Com that thing worked well as campaign could last long time (even years in game's time), you always saw how your guys are recovering. But ArmA doesn't have that kind of focus, and there is no need for it.

Maybe Game 2 with it's rumored dynamic structure can give that aspect. Maybe player gets hit to legs and war rages on for mouths as player is recovering in hospital. That could be intresting point... Or maybe player gets out from hospital after war in finished wink_o.gif (i can imagine Game 2 forum's troubleshooting section: My campaign lasts only one mission! Is this a bug! )

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I don't mind it as it is but I agree it could have been improved. It seems to be exactly, or almost exactly, the same as ofp's health system.

Bleeding should definately be implemented imo since getting shot and not having to worry about the leaking claret is a real immersion blower. Loss of vision and mobility should also follow blood loss.

One thing I'd really like to see a modder make a mod for is the ability to carry a corpse/casualty on your shoulder. Maybe even lend support to a crippled comrade to let him walk with his arm around your shoulder.

I would also like to see the medical process be alot more involved but I haven't really got any good ideas as to how this could be done. Maybe have actual inventory items for different wounds such as bandages/tourniquet for bleeding and morphine for loss of mobility/aiming. Some of these items could be used by anyone, while others could only be used by special forces/medics.

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I agree. That would be nice to be able to carry a wounded guy up to the ambulance or nearest medic. At the moment you have to crawl all you way even if loads of people could help you...

On top of that you could do a nice rescue/Forrest Gump mission. wink_o.gif

Eric

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Remember the concept of "FAIR" that BIS is keen on implementing in ArmA, i.e. that gameplay should be equally fair for AI and players. Obviously this doesn't mean complete emulation of a human player in the AIs' case (cf. various threads on the poorness of the AI), but it does mean that anything that can happen to a player should be equally applicable to AI. Loss of accuracy and inability to stand up are easily implemented for both AI and human, whereas things like bleeding to death, vision impairment, various crippling injuries, carrying or dragging wounded, etc aren't quite as easy to implement "fairly".

For instance in old OFP, if a unit was a medic (or having medic skills), and received a non-lethal wound, the unit would immediately crouch down and start healing itself, leaving itself easy picking. In various mods where bleeding was implemented, units would sometimes simply bleed to death if there was no medic present, attacking and running around normally in the meantime. Implementing proper AI for these things (when and how soon should units apply first aid for bleeding wounds, in what direction should they drag or carry their wounded, how would disorientation and shock be modelled?) is not something easily and quickly done, and is more appropriate for a mod-team to work on. For instance WGL or SLX.

And disregarding the pure AI-side of it all, not everyone would enjoy bleeding slowly to death or having to limp around supported by teammates (once again a question of how on earth to make the AI do that? Or for that matter, public server "buddies"). I've found that getting shot in the leg and being unable to walk in many cases leads to quick suicide in respawn-MP, or retry/load in singleplayer.

Of course, there are times and places for a much more realistic wound system, and I would very much personally like to play a mod which implements these things (particularily since the improved graphics of ArmA allows for so much cooler effects than just white-in-white-outs and black-in-black-outs smile_o.gif ), but for just vanilla-ArmA, I don't know. Sounds like a needlessly large amount of work.

But some very nice ideas, otherwise!

Wolfrug out.

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I think the damage system is fine as it stands.

however i was a bit concerned when i popped a AI team mate in the eye point-blank with a M4 round and he didnt die lol

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I agree. That would be nice to be able to carry a wounded guy up to the ambulance or nearest medic. At the moment you have to crawl all you way even if loads of people could help you...

Eric

That would be great. It was nicely done in Medal of honor: Pacific assault. You didn't have to carry wounded soldiers too far, but it was a nice feature which is, IMO, almost essential in a game like ArmA. As Eric said, there are people around to help you, and of course, they would IRL...

I've only played ArmA demo till now and there were a few occasions when i needed help badly (coop mission)

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I've only played ArmA demo till now and there were a few occasions when i needed help badly (coop mission)

Every OFP veteran of MP mode has needed this feature that has been demanded before. There as been dozens of times when one of my teammates cripples himself early in a mission and just ends up nading himself after 2 minutes of crawling.

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I think the damage system is a fair compromize ballacing realism and gameplay. I'd like players to get post-traumatic stress disorder after playing the game for six to twelve months though.

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its suppose to be a war simulation? if yer dead yer dead!

means you have to try very hard not to be shot?

but there are scripts-well there were in ofp to revive fallen team mates! havent tried porting em to Arma yet?

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I've only played ArmA demo till now and there were a few occasions when i needed help badly (coop mission)

Every OFP veteran of MP mode has needed this feature that has been demanded before. There as been dozens of times when one of my teammates cripples himself early in a mission and just ends up nading himself after 2 minutes of crawling.

Indeed. Also it'd add some sort of depth in the game, at least the medic wouldn't be just a guy with med packs, but would play a more vital role, at least during a firefight, dragging/carrying people away while others keep engaging.

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Leg: I'd say four hits here max until we die. Of course stronger weapons would take less though.

Arm: After three shots in the arm we would die.

Chest: After being shot in the chest once our character should automatically fall into prone position. We wouldn't be able to get up or crawl around much. The accuracy of all the weapons would be somewhat decreased. The whole screen would slowly start to turn red, from the outside towards the center, eventually going faster and maybe the transparency fading in and out for extra effect. After about ten to twenty seconds, when the screen turns full red, we'd die. All of that is assuming we are only shot one time, (possibly once before if it was a pistol), because anymore hits and we'd die.

Head: Finally, I'm at the head. This would be a one shot kill. The screen would quickly fade to red as we suddenly fall to the ground.

Another change that I feel may be interesting is if your vision would sharpen when shot. I would imagine that with all the andrenaline, that's bound to happen. If not, then the screen could also get blurry.

Why would the amount of shots in the limbs decide when to die? To really simulate a realistic damage system the whole cardiovascular system should be coded cos limb shots can be "just a scratch" or severe type if the arteries are hit badly and blood loss is quick. Not to mention thoracic and abdominal cavities to simulate damage to the lungs (I'd say it'd cause a bit more than decreased accuracy of all weapons if the shot is an unlucky one) and other vital organs. Of course some shots to the chest go through causing only some internal bleeding but that's something I call somewhat lucky. And finally: On some rare occasions a head shot does very little if any damage, so the possible exception of some lucky ass sob's getting away with a minor skull fracture should be included as well.

About the adrenaline, some people have high levels and don't feel pain and stuff if they're hit, but a shot in the lungs will stop them as well eventually. Major blood loss also causes shock on everyone no matter who they are and how high they're adrenaline is.

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No defibrilator please.

You don't run to a comrade that has multiple bullet wounds .. rip his shirt open .. and give him electro shocks. Seriously .. lol .. defibrilator ..

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Quote[/b] ]To really simulate a realistic damage system the whole cardiovascular system should be coded...

All of which is much the same as saying that the effect might as well be random, albeit with different probabilities depending upon hit location. Running a true simulation with this level of variability is a little pointless when the end result can't be told apart from just throwing a couple of digital dice. smile_o.gif

BTW, even head-shots aren't invariable fatal - lots of people who try to commit suicide by shooting themselves in the head survice the experience.

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Those people must suck, they even fail at killing themselves.

How can one survive with most of your brain on the wall behind?

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This isn't real life. It's a war simulator, but it's also a game. Take that into account. I'm sure little tidbits will be added in the upcoming SLX mod, ie, dragging wounded soldiers to safety, etc. Limping would be a nice feature. One person doesn't drag another randomly. In each team there are assigned EPW (enemy prisoner of war) searchers, and AID and litter men for the wounded.

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I think the whole bleeding thing shouldn't be too hard to code for BI. Let's face it : vehicles already "bleed" (lose their fuel) when damaged, why not infantry units ?

Maybe this could even be done by scripting with some sort of invisible dummy vehicle... it would receive the same damage as the unit (setdamage) and when out of fuel... you die.

Or even more simple with just a simple countdown/loop...

The option could be set only to Veteran difficulty

Eric

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It's interesting to consider the purpose of real life medics.

They are not really there to patch men up so they

can "continue the mission", they are there to try to prevent

them from dying of their wounds. This is not really relevant in

this game since few game campaigns (if any) model such

continuity or try to carry over the same characters from one

mission to the other. With this in mind it might even be better

to dispense with "medics" altogether from the game and

have "wounded" men in ArmA just react in a variety of ways

that  range from "toughing it out" (for a while, anyway)

through lying quietly to rolling around screaming for their

mothers.

         The problem with this though, is that the AI shooters

are all marksmen, there is hardly any real cover for a human

player to duck down behind on the terrain (forget all about AI

being able to use cover properly), it is almost impossible to

make the enemy "keep their heads down", body armor and

ballistic helmets are not modelled properly, and one cannot

dig in. So the usual measures a real soldier uses to avoid

stopping a bullet do not really apply in the game. This is one

of the reasons why getting shot can't really have the same

serious repercussions on peformance in the game as it does in

reality, otherwise the game would get very frustrating. I

admit I've often had to call the medic bod over to help me

stand up again after getting stung on the leg by one of those

pesky 7.62 FMJ high velocity bullets but I hate it and I know

it's really crap.

       However, some sort of "carry your buddy" device would be

a valuable addition. The "crawl 300 yards to get to the heli

with tomato ketchup all over one's legs" situation as I was

forced to witness during the lame-arsed "speshul forces"

mission in the ArmA campaign (before I abandoned it totally)

really needs to go!

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Those people must suck, they even fail at killing themselves.

How can one survive with most of your brain on the wall behind?

Bullets create crush cavities. Some high-velocity ones will cause more damage than their circumpherence due to fragmentation and temporary cavitation due to pressure (on NON-ELASTIC structures within the body, like the liver or brain ONLY). Shooting yourself in the head with a .38 will leave you with a .38 inch hole that extends in a ray through your head. Not all of your brain performs functions which are necessary to the continuation of your life. For example, much of the pre frontal cortex is involved with emotional control and higher reasoning. I wouldn't say that lots of people survive shooting themselves in the head, but it's possible. One could expect changes in behaviour, personality, and possibly siezures and other weird psychological and psychosomatic effects from brain lesions to be present for the rest of the patient's life after the injury. For the game purposes, though, it's not likely that the soldier sustaining the brain injury from a rifle round would survive at any but the most extreme ranges, and even if the man survived, he would likely be rendered unconscious and possibly comatose. It's certainly unlikely he would be able to continue soldiering as a career. For the intents and purposes of the game, you may as well just have all soldiers who are hit in the brain die. In fact, you may as well just have any soldier who sustains wounds bad enough for a high degree of disability die. Injuries such has having the eyes removed by bullets or shrapnel, having the legs blown off, having extreme internal injury, or being rendered unconscious by any means could and probably should be treated as outright death.

editting over and over because apparently english is my 3rd or 4th language today...

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Those people must suck, they even fail at killing themselves.

How can one survive with most of your brain on the wall behind?

it's quite common among those who decide to do it the "pistol in the mouth" way. some people who try it with smaller calibers might be saved by the recoil causing the bullet to go through the neck or something. heard that one when I last visited the mental health center. believe me, they do know their shit cos they are the ones to meet those unlucky bastards who survive biggrin_o.gifbiggrin_o.gif

finally, what I tried to say earlier was that some kind of blood loss should be included cause most of the wounds actually DO BLEED. easiest way (IMHO the most suitable way for a game) would be to add three simple levels: mild bleeding (no special attention needed), moderate bleeding (any other soldier could take care of it with some bandages, ---> evac) and severe bleeding (self explanatory).

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i'm sure it will come within the modding community?

with ECP mod (OFP)if u got shot bad enough you had to administer first aid to yourself! or u would bleed to death! smile_o.gif

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