"Dragon Skin"

[VictorTroska 0]

"Dragon Skin" is a kind of body armor made by Pinnacle Armor and worn by personnel expected to be in high-threat situations. Individual users include the U.S. Secret Service Presidential Protection detail, CIA, NSA, United States Department of Energy officials in Iraq, some journalists and contractors in Iraq, U.S. Air Force, some Special Ops forces, some police departments and SWAT teams, and nine U.S. Generals in the field (as of Jan 2006).

The Dragon Skin vests are known for their silver dollar sized circular discs linked together like fish scales or chain mail. This makes the vests flexible and allows for multiple hits. The discs are composed of an advanced ceramic composite (with a strength only second to diamond) matrices and laminates.

Pinnacle SOV-2000 level III armor is made of an imbricated overlapping configuration of approximately 0.25†x 2†ceramic discs encased in an aramid textile cover. The area of Dragon Skin body armor coverage varies between different layout configurations selected by the user.

A total of 17 rounds was fired into the panel without penetration:

3 @ 7.62x51mm Federal Match

3 @ 7.62x39mm Military Ball

3 @ 5.56x45mm M193 Ball

3 @ 5.56x45mm M193 Ball at 45 degrees

2 @ 5.56x45mm M855 Green Tip

2 @ 5.56x45mm Bonded M193

1 @ 7.62x51mm Federal Bonded

-5.56 mm 40 gr LeMas Urban Warfare (using a moly coated Nosler Ballistic Tip bullet) with a 3718 f/s average velocity.

-5.56 mm M855 62 gr FMJ with a 3054 f/s average velocity.

-7.62x39 mm M43 123 gr steel-core FMJ with a 2307 f/s average velocity.

-.30-06 M2 150 gr FMJ with a 2736 f/s average velocity.

All of the above ammo was successfully stopped by both armor systems in this testing, with no armor failures or penetrations, even after receiving multiple hits.

On December 20, 2006, Pinnacle Armor received the official letter from the National Institute of Justice (NIJ) that they've passed the Level III tests, and that Dragon Skin SOV-2000 is now certified for Level III protection.

MIL-STD SOV-3000â„¢

The MIL-STD SOV-3000â„¢ Level IV & V flexible body armor system will defeat the rifle rounds listed on our ballistic chart in those threat categories.

Additionally, the SOV-3000â„¢ flexible Level IV & V systems exceed the MIL-P-46593A fragmentation requirements around the high power rifle defeating areas.

The SOV-3000â„¢ Level IV, with our large standard tactical front and back panel configuration weighs approximately 17.2 lbs. and varies depending on the level of coverage needed. The SOV-3000â„¢ is manufactured with a ceramic composite.

Links: a) Offical site (More info)

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1)shuld it be part of standard military equipment?

2)how better is then interceptor series?

3)army hasnt procured any jet,troops have to buy it themselves?

4)If a soldier is found with this armour, it will be confiscated. If they are shot and wounded while wearing it, they will be denied benefits. There's a big political row about it, the theory being simple corruption, with the soldiers paying the price for it ?

[walker 0]

Hi VictorTroska

It was reported a year ago by Daily Kos and others.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/4/7/185627/4954

While Donald Rumsfeld was in charge of the Pentagon it has had big thing against the armour and several senior republicans and republican supporters are linked to the companies that have the contracts for selling the current armour and inserts to the Army.

And senators appear to have been deliberately misinformed about the effectiveness of the armour by a person doing tests and procurement for the Army who it now turns out has links to one of the companies involved.

Now there is a Democrat congress and Senate I expect there will be a change in the situation and a proper assessment of armour carried out.

Kind Regards Walker

[BlackScorpion 0]

Quite impressive. Guess I'll get one if I get sent to Afghanistan as a peacekeeper in few years (thinking about applying for one after Army...), if the thing reeally is that good. Doubt that it'll stop an hard-headed AP round, but how many AP rounds have you seen with the insurgents?

"An advanced ceramic composite with a strength only second to diamond"? Guess that's boron carbide, the same thing used in Interceptor. Hardness is quite extreme, 5th hardest thing known to man. Diamond is 3rd, so that gives you a fair idea... but that's just hardness, not tensile strenght. So the "Dragon skin" can still shatter. But try molding a 30 cm x 30 cm peace of clay and drop it, and compare it to a piece of clay the size of a quarter.

[VictorTroska 0]

Thx for the info walker.

Things that really interested me:

1.)Understand that the Dragon Skin body armor shown in these videos is the same body armor used by President Bush's Secret Service bodyguards.

2.)Understand further that the Interceptor body armor that is currently the standard issue for our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan has been know to shatter on impact, and generally cannot withstand more than one bullet strike, unless the strikes are spaced far enough apart on the armor

3.)About six months after the Pentagon said it would reimburse soldiers who bought their own gear to use in Iraq and Afghanistan, the Army has prohibited the wearing of body armor not issued by the military.....Maj. Gen. Jeffrey Sorenson said Friday the gear has not yet passed testing.

It "isn't anywhere near" the capability of the standard interceptor body armor in use, Sorenson said.

4.)Interceptor armor that is inherently brittle and fractures when dropped or slammed into solid objects such as the ground.

5.)Several independent and credible sources believe that any full and fair test will demonstrate beyond question that Dragon Skin is superior to the currently fielded Interceptor system in all significant areas, save one -- cost. Dragon Skin is more expensive to produce, but the economies of large-scale production should cause a substantial reduction in the per-unit-cost to the government.

6.)the Bush Administration puts the safety and welfare of George Bush's bodyguards well above the safety and welfare of our troops in combat.

The fact is, the Pentagon has known about Dragon Skin since 2000 and still has not been willing to provide it to our troops on the ground. Instead, our troops are supplied with inferior, heavy, clumsy body armor that is pretty much useless after one hit. (I suppose the Pentagon could issue a directive to all enemy forces specifying that they take only one shot at any given U.S. soldier; that would probably absolve Pentagon officials of any responsibility.)

But up until last week, at least if any of our men and women in harm's way wanted to protect themselves with the best possible armor, they could get it for themselves. Now the Pentagon has not only denied them that opportunity, but has lied to prevent the best available protection from EVER being made available to them.

[ran 0]

While the test rounds didn't penetrate, it's quite certain that they'd have inflicted severe internal traumas, the real question is : how would you rather die ? with a hole in yourself, spilling blood on the ground or with chili con carne in place of internal organs and blood flowing everywhere in your body except through your veins ?

I'm don't exactly know if I'd wear one. I'm not a ballistic protection specialist but I'd say that a good old well adjusted ceramic plate would distribute the impact power over itself, while the flexibility advertised by Dragon Skin would more likely concentrate the impact power. That said, I don't really know about it and that's just my uninformed opinion and observations.

And couldn't a bullet slip under the discs at certain angles ?

[walker 0]

Hi all

I think this is the old plate armour verses scale armour thing.

Ran what makes you think that because the bullet hits one or more discs suspended within a Kevlar vest it will impart any more energy to internal organs than a flat plate armour?

The main problem here is that at least one of the people doing the testing for the Army has links to the project for implementing the competing product at the very least it looks unequal.

The other problem according to many military sources and journalists has been that David Brooks of DHB Industries, and Armor Holdings was a big contributor to the republican party and that Donald Rumsfeld did not reorganise the Army procurement system as he pretended to do.

I guess soldiers in the US have to ask themselves what they think is the case from their experience.

Kind Regards Walker

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Ran what makes you think that because the bullet hits one or more discs suspended within a kevlar vest it will impart any more energy to internal organs than a flat plate armour?

Because the surface of a plate is bigger than the disc structured principle and thererfore kinetic energy applied to the plate will not turn into a punctual stream but kinetic energy is spread over the whole size of the plate.

I´m always a bit wary about all the tests. They are meant to sell a product, not to highlight their weak spots.

Edit: Another not minor factor to stay away from Dragonskin is the cost factor. The Interceptor vests come in fro around 1000 Dollars while the Dragonskin is about 5000 Dollars which makes indeed a significant difference. Multiply this with the servicemen in the US and you have a huge pile of money for questionable results as the manufacturer fails to provide solid data on test circles and things like high speed fragmentation and AP rounds are not taken into account during testing the vest.

I´m not saying that it isn´t better, but still we just don´t know and the price has always been a deciding factor for army buyers. I guess that´s not just the case in the US but in every country.

[walker 0]

Hi all

To Balschoiw and ran would you care to explain this in terms of how it is physically possible for the shock waves from the vest being hit on one more ceramic discs then to the Kevlar backing to cause:

...chili con carne in place of internal organs and blood flowing everywhere in your body except through your veins ?..

I am just a little hazy on the physics there

To help you along I point you to this interesting article which links to the available tests

http://www.defensereview.com/modules....sid=925

Then have a look at the Backface Deformation Signature (BDS) figures. The testing has shown it to be better than the current available amour at preventing trauma.

Of course these are the civilian tests and we are not privy to the military tests but clearly it makes sense for those who do the testing to not be so involved in the competing product.

Kind Regards Walker

[ran 0]

the chili con carne was just a "poetic" image used to slightly overdramatize the internal traumas caused by non penetrating hits of large caliber weapons

[walker 0]

Hi all

To ran thank you for clarifying that it had me confused.

I think we need to await proper tests on Dragon Skin as with any other armour but clearly there appear to be some problems with the testing and procurement system from when Donald Rumsfeld was there.

For one thing a person who has himself admitted he is in charge of the project for the competing product Interceptor armour should not be in charge of doing the testing for Dragon Skin armour at the very least it smacks of a conflict of interest.

The testing needs to be done ideally by independent military people.

There are other issues with people misinforming all and sundry even to the level of senators, which I think is probably illegal.

I notice that one of the persons involved has taken early retirement I wonder as to the motives.

Kind Regards walker

[Balschoiw 0]

Even if the tests show that the BA is somewhat better (read, not dramatically better) there´s still the price. You get 5 Interceptor for the price of one Dragonskin vest.

There are other things that have to be taken into account when thinking about replacing the current model:

The Dragonskin is heavier, this means that are several side-effects of this, that are:

- longterm risk of damaging your back and knees

- additional weight limits your combat capacity

Apart from that there are no tests on the airflow and temperature inside the vest during use in hot or cold environments. This can be a deciding factor if temperatures get to high in environments like Iraq.

There is no way you can repair a Dragonskin vest once it has been damaged. Unlike plated vests you have to replace the whole vest which is a big downside of it compared to the Interceptor vest.

The Dragonskin offers just too little for a lot of more money. There are other concepts that are worked upon, ranging from liquid filled body armor to new material vests that work with superhard woven sandwich strutures but they are unlikely to be presented in 5 or 6 years. Right now imo the Interceptor vest is the best choice, even if it may look like the Dragonskin has some benfits in some aspects. Still the tests lack AP rounds and high speed fragmentation, things that are common with IED´s and assaults. There´s also a lack of durability tests and effects of chemicals on the vest.

The fact itself that the producers fail to provide accurate data on their webpage should be sufficient enough to understand that the Dragonskin is not THE solution for the needs of body armor. It may be an interim solution but military doesn´t spend that much buck on something that will be outdated soon.

[crassus 0]

Now there is a Democrat congress and Senate I expect there will be a change in the situation and a proper assessment of armour carried out.

Ah yes, the incorruptible, ever-vigilant, always-dedicated defenders of the Republic, the Democratic party.