Why not have this?...

[ryankaplan 1]

Quote[/b] ]They keep their finger on the pulse of what are major issues to the community ie. the helo flight model, rather than smaller preferences ie. effects that can be modded.

And thats exactly what makes ArmA not great. The explicit refusal of attention to detail by bis. BIS concentrates on huge features that sells a game, such as 'huge amounts of units on the battlefield' and 'huge island' and 'drive and pilot any vehicle' and 'real weather effects and star constelations' etc.

However, sometimes little 'immersive' features in a game can increase the game's quality and immersiveness (at least for me) more than another huge feature.

Again (for the 18th time) i will refer to the game Red Orchestra.

What is red orchestra? it is a mod. It is basicly battlefield 2 with no crosshair, in ww2, with a liking for a bit of realism, but a fetish for attention to detail. These are little things like;

Cooking Nades, Overheating Barrels which require change after extensive 'abuse', Ability to rest weapon on pretty much anything to stabilise your aim and Clicking Again to pull the bolt to fire again, a slight 'blur' effect when a bullet whizes past close which has a huge effect on gameplay because it really does make people take cover.

They really do add to the game with very little work on behalf of the developer.

Quote[/b] ]What a murderous piece of English. Makes me queasy when folks try to sound articulate by ramming lots of long words together...

This must be one of the most extreme cases of 'owned' in these forums that i have yet to see. I Salute you Mr. Mandrake

[celery 8]

Again (for the 18th time) i will refer to the game Red Orchestra.

This is just my opinion, but RO has little to offer in the field of immersion. The little features are nice and I hope that they get common in other games, but Red Orchestra itself is frustratingly clumsy, trying to be hard core "realistic" but still being far too gamey, the result is a mess. The engine they use is far from optimal for its purpose, it has the same annoying glitches as arcade shooters. The fact that it's just a mod with very restricted movement and one shot kills shines through too brightly.

For me the features didn't save any immersion points from the overall sillyness. In Armed Assault and OFP those extra features would make the experience deeper, but the immersion is already there by other means (gameplay). That makes additional features a bit more tertiary.

[shinRaiden 0]

I stand by what I wrote, I wrote it exactly as it came to mind, no attempt was made to spam via big words, nor edits made. The same applies for this post. Erroneous assumptions to that effect are solely contrived by those who fronted them.

The term "realism" has been so hideously abused in the gaming industry that attempts to interject it into the discussion by and large now are farcical on their face. For opening exhibits I present the following, immediately relevant to the topic and technology at hand :

Heart rate and Immersion in a First Person Simulation

Challenging the Super Soldier Syndrome...

... A Review on studies in immersion, fidelity, presence ...

The common gamer approach is completely backwards from what they allegedly insist they demand. What they demand is effects, not results. Rather, they should be investigating, and seeking to implement the actual results (I here use the word result to describe the impact to the user, as the understanding of the term 'effect' has become far too polluted), then determining what sort of events, actions, and objects are required to implement those desired results.

A more proper example - instead of demanding flashy smoke and then trying to decide what to do with it - would be to establish a prinicple for dynamic visual capacity of the user. Note that via the engine methods used HDR a partial solution has already been delivered. Secondly, it appears that another tool, Depth Of Field, may also be available. These are tools however, and not solutions.

This is why I get cranky when people ask for the big shiny stuff, and suppose that it's real because they want to believe it is. Where is your proof? Otherwise, if the sole authority is your own opinions, that's far less defensible than the consistently locked and banned religion threads. The academic side of the serious games community is lacking in consensus due to the lack of a substantial foundation of quantified data, however the technical assumption is that there may actually be decreased usefulness with supposed increases in simulation fidelity modeling reality. On the other hand, the unsubtantiated collective gut hunch, for which there is no rational proof or justification, says that is the way to go.

Ok, fine, that's realism. Now the other item that I take issue with is the attempt to shotgun a spread of complaints already posted and locked ad nauseam under the disguise of a "constructive criticism" thread that originated on an entirely different subject. A thread jack is still a thread jack, even if it is the author doing the hijacking. The original topic was a request to mimic certain visual and audio cues from other products. It was not a shotgun list for general whining, although later posts did just that.

You may choose to misconstrue this comment as insisting you need to suck up to BIS. Far from it. If you're actually willing to consider the issues and give it the time of day, you'd research and propose potential solutions to implement the cues you want. That's the constructive part you forgot in your criticism. As you offered nothing in the way of constructive solutions, the only other alternative is that you are attempting to post a destructive criticism. And there's been a whole heap of those locked and shot down lately.

[benreeper 0]

It does seem that this thread has turned into a "BIS doesn't care about making good games" rant.

Why do all the gamers that play other games only point out the features that their other favorite game has and ArmA doesn't but not the features ArmA has and their other favorite game hasn't?

--Ben

[Heatseeker 0]

What makes me cranky is how people throw requests all over the forum completely depretiating the game (has a whole) because of minor features found in other games... yet in 2007 we dont see things happening the other way around, where are the other ground breaking, large scale, war games?

Quote[/b] ]

I don't care about wild life or lag-producing grass which is just a pain at its current state. Or how about flies and butterflies in the game, - all that and no such elementary thing as shellshock effects... So why not developing more in the area that essential to combat simulation and lossing the eye-candy butterflies.

I care! When being virtually shot at i dont focus on wildlife, i like how the wildlife and grass make the environment look natural and more life alike, thats imersion for me.. What you are requesting here is only essential in your opinion, in mine it could be a waste of time compared to other important features and gameplay enhancements that didnt make it.

I can post a dozen things i would have liked to experience in Arma that i find more important than a blurry screen when a handgrenade touches nearby ground.

A blurry screen wont make an arcadish game provide a better gameplay experience than the one OPF and Arma deliver. I did like the damage effects in Doom3 though

[froggyluv 2136]

This thread is useless, as was stated, most to all of those effects you want plus many more will be modded in eventually.

Flash&Bang Mods, Zombie Mods, Civil War Mods, Ultra-Realism Mods, CTI's, CTF's etc... Just be patient.

Now if you had said a better physics engine...

[Maddmatt 1]

This thread is useless, as was stated, most to all of those effects you want plus many more will be modded in eventually.

Flash&Bang Mods, Zombie Mods, Civil War Mods, Ultra-Realism Mods, CTI's, CTF's etc... Just be patient.

Now if you had said a better physics engine...

He's not asking for it to be in a mod, but to be in the game itself. You can't just join any multiplayer server with your favorite mod.

Every time someone suggests a feature we have someone saying we'll have it in a mod. We know about mods already. "Modded in" isn't what is being asked for.

The physics engine isn't related to this thread.

[jerryhopper 286]

oh wow...

what a sad thing here....

ArmA is what is is.

if you are not happy with the 'immersion' and want that in the game, and not as a mod, i suggest you start looking for a different game.

all discussions of "what should and what shouldnt be in the game" is just a endless road.

lets face it: ArmA is a product from BIS, it reflect their feeling of a war-sim.

with the amount of expirience gathered during the OFP a VBS series, the game is what it is, or what you mod it to.

When do people just realize that You get what you buy?  these forums are not ment for feature-requests in a already finished game. ( apart from the essential fixes ofcoz. )

Do people ever wonder why there no game that comes close to OFP VBS or ArmA?

it's because those games are UNIQUE ( meaning unlike any other)

9 out of 10 people that complain on ArmA or do feature requests, aimed a little to high when they bought/played ArmA.

So people, if you DONT like the immersion or anything else.  

THEN DONT PLAY THE GAME.

ShinRaiden : Well Spoken!

[Maddmatt 1]

...

The thread is just a suggestion for features, not a request to change it into another game. WTF has it got to do with other games coming close to ArmA? Just because someone would like something extra in the game doesn't mean that they wont play the game.

Some people just don't grasp the concept of a suggestion.

[deanosbeano 0]

Quote[/b] ]So people, if you DONT like the immersion or anything else. THEN DONT PLAY THE GAME.

how can that possibly solve anything ?

would it not be also true that if you dont like the title of a thread dont read it ?

[jerryhopper 286]

...

The thread is just a suggestion for features, not a request to change it into another game. WTF has it got to do with other games coming close to ArmA? Just because someone would like something extra in the game doesn't mean that they wont play the game.

Some people just don't grasp the concept of a suggestion.

Xcuse me? "its about time some people grasp the concept of ArmA"

They suggest : BF2 like immersion.

its simply not an option to compare ANY effects from any other game than ofp or VBS to ArmA.

Again, BIS give you this game.

why dont you MOD your feature requests in the game? this is what BIS wants you to do. ultimate moddability for the most extraordinary ideas.

Once you get yourself into modding ArmA, then

the game is only limited to your imagination.

Suggestion or not, this 'idea' belongs in the mods/addon ideas forum.

[froggyluv 2136]

This thread is useless, as was stated, most to all of those effects you want plus many more will be modded in eventually.

Flash&Bang Mods, Zombie Mods, Civil War Mods, Ultra-Realism Mods, CTI's, CTF's etc... Just be patient.

Now if you had said a better physics engine...

He's not asking for it to be in a mod, but to be in the game itself. You can't just join any multiplayer server with your favorite mod.

Every time someone suggests a feature we have someone saying we'll have it in a mod. We know about mods already. "Modded in" isn't what is being asked for.

The physics engine isn't related to this thread.

Yeah I know what hes asking but the point is you can't have every feature you admire in other FPS implemented in the game. His request comes across like BIS promised these, imo, trivial features and therefore owe him that.

If you read the 505 thread you'll see that BIS does read these forums and are adding far more important feature such as realistic armor values and a simplified AI scripter. Things that are very cool and important to a war sim, not "stock FPS"

[Daniel 0]

I find myself disagreeing point blank there. In my opinion, an aspect of the game that leaves you or AI significantly less capable to fight when an explosion as occurred close enough, SHOULD be considered within the "concept of ArmA".

The people that have made such requests in this thread are not all asking for effects that other games have and ArmA lacks - they have simply used examples from other games to show how they have portrayed the true-to-life feature in a functional way.

[Maddmatt 1]

Xcuse me? "its about time some people grasp the concept of ArmA"

They suggest : BF2 like immersion.

its simply not an option to compare ANY effects from any other game than ofp or VBS to ArmA.

Again, BIS give you this game.

why dont you MOD your feature requests in the game? this is what BIS wants you to do. ultimate moddability for the most extraordinary ideas.

Once you get yourself into modding ArmA, then

the game is only limited to your imagination.

Suggestion or not, this 'idea' belongs in the mods/addon ideas forum.

Oh so BIS gave us this game? I don't recall it being free .

It's a friggin suggestion to BIS, and hell - it's not even my thread. Of course this will be modded in if BIS don't do it, but that has no relevance to this thread since it is not a suggestion for a mod, but for ArmA itself.

Why is it not an option to compare effects from this game to effects from other games? This is a game as well. If you don't like the suggestions, well thats fine, but you don't need to go on a rant about where you think this topic to be - that's not your decision. The thread is not about mods.

Quote[/b] ]

"So people, if you DONT like the immersion or anything else.

THEN DONT PLAY THE GAME."

Nobody said they don't like this game here, and how does that "rule" not apply to this thread? If you don't like it don't bother joining in on the discussion.

[5cent_at_NY 0]

oh wow...

what a sad thing here....

ArmA is what is is.

if you are not happy with the 'immersion' and want that in the game, and not as a mod, i suggest you start looking for a different game.

all discussions of "what should and what shouldnt be in the game" is just a endless road.

lets face it: ArmA is a product from BIS, it reflect their feeling of a war-sim.

with the amount of expirience gathered during the OFP a VBS series, the game is what it is, or what you mod it to.

When do people just realize that You get what you buy? ?these forums are not ment for feature-requests in a already finished game. ( apart from the essential fixes ofcoz. )

Do people ever wonder why there no game that comes close to OFP VBS or ArmA?

it's because those games are UNIQUE ( meaning unlike any other)

9 out of 10 people that complain on ArmA or do feature requests, aimed a little to high when they bought/played ArmA.

So people, if you DONT like the immersion or anything else. ?

THEN DONT PLAY THE GAME.

ShinRaiden : Well Spoken!

why there's so many ppl in this forum couldnt understand the difference between suggestion and whining ?

then how do you thinks why BIS have done so many tweaks and bug fix (i.e. chopper control)in the patch? what if we took Arma "as it is"?

every ppl has their own wishes, and hopes that if BIS hear them. "why messn' round here?" because this game are UNIQUE. you know what i mean? if those "suggestion" or any other constructive criticism is getting on your nerves, THEN DONT READ THE POST.

It's not you, or not me who decides what should be and what shouldnt. it's BIS's job.

[Zombie_Mod 0]

This thread is useless, as was stated, most to all of those effects you want plus many more will be modded in eventually.

Flash&Bang Mods, Zombie Mods, Civil War Mods, Ultra-Realism Mods, CTI's, CTF's etc... Just be patient.

Now if you had said a better physics engine...

Ha, there won't be any zombie mods from my hands, thats for sure. Some other poor sap will have to write one from scratch, because as far as I am concerned ArmA is a busted flush.

I have completed it and uninstalled it. Utter waste of money.

[Maddmatt 1]

Ha, there won't be any zombie mods from my hands, thats for sure. Some other poor sap will have to write one from scratch, because as far as I am concerned ArmA is a busted flush.

I have completed it and uninstalled it. Utter waste of money.

Well someone else probably will make one then. There are plenty of capable modders around.

I'll probably get involved in something, not likely to be zombies though.

[wamingo 1]

Nice attitude.

You can't "complete" arma. It's a work in progress.

[Cannon Fodder 0]

Only a fool would uninstall this game just before the first major release and equivalent patching. As the progress with the demo demonstrates, ArmA is improving all the time.

[NeMeSiS 11]

Nice attitude.

You can't "complete" arma. It's a work in progress.

Well..

You can complete the campaign, however if you want to see something bad in ArmA i suggest everyone to play that, its..

Incredibly bad, and doesn't show the potential of ArmA at all.

Anyway, immersion suggestions are ok, but BF2 is a bad example IMO, its about as immersive as the ArmA campaign

[kestrel7e7 0]

No academic studies are required to recognise that a nearby explosion results in reduced situational awareness, this is simple, common, sense. The reduced situational awareness can be simulated by reducing the quality of sight and sound, the only two sources of sensory feedback in a PC simulation. This technique has been used extensively in the past for both computer games and movies, with great success. Since shinRaiden's vague theoretical brainstorm has offered nothing but confusions, with no workable alternatives, his critique can hardly be justified.

If BIS releases a new retail version within a year or two, then modding ArmA is a pointless waste of time because the mods would all be rendered obsolete. OFP's modding success was largely due to the 6 year wait for the next version... which hopefully won't happen again.

Claiming ArmA's good modding potential overcomes its shortcomings is much like a real-estate agent selling a derelict house, proudly claiming that it has great renovation potential. A retail game should not need mods (that can take years to make) to fix fundamental shortcomings in its design.

I think BIS is using ArmA simply as a financial springboard towards much more comprehensive and polished products in the not too distant future. I'm sure they are aware of the shortcomings of their own creation but financial constraints are preventing them from reaching their true potential.

[froggyluv 2136]

If BIS releases a new retail version within a year or two, then modding ArmA is a pointless waste of time because the mods would all be rendered obsolete. OFP's modding success was largely due to the 6 year wait for the next version... which hopefully won't happen again.

Claiming ArmA's good modding potential overcomes its shortcomings is much like a real-estate agent selling a derelict house, proudly claiming that it has great renovation potential. A retail game should not need mods (that can take years to make) to fix fundamental shortcomings in its design.

The excellent SLX mod is coming out anyday so no, you will not have to wait 6 years.

The real estate anology is false. Effects desired could be equated with house amenities, not it's foundation. The foundation of Arama is fine and will get better with tweaking.

[kestrel7e7 0]

If BIS releases a new retail version within a year or two, then modding ArmA is a pointless waste of time because the mods would all be rendered obsolete. OFP's modding success was largely due to the 6 year wait for the next version... which hopefully won't happen again.

Claiming ArmA's good modding potential overcomes its shortcomings is much like a real-estate agent selling a derelict house, proudly claiming that it has great renovation potential. A retail game should not need mods (that can take years to make) to fix fundamental shortcomings in its design.

The excellent SLX mod is coming out anyday so no, you will not have to wait 6 years.

The real estate anology is false. Effects desired could be equated with house amenities, not it's foundation. The foundation of Arama is fine and will get better with tweaking.

I didn't say it takes 6 years to make a mod...  

Mods that fix the foundations are pointless if BIS starts releasing a new game every year (full price retail upgrade, like the IL-2 series).

You're also forgetting that the poorly implemented HDR "effect" is hard-coded into the *foundation* of ArmA and cannot be turned off.

Most good games come packaged as a block of land with a nice livable house on it that you can immediately occupy. ArmA feels like a block of land with a derelict house on it that needs a few years of renovation before you can live in it.

[Maddmatt 1]

You're also forgetting that the poorly implemented HDR "effect" is hard-coded into the *foundation* of ArmA and cannot be turned off.

It's been explained before why you can't turn it off.

And I wouldn't call it "poorly implemented". It looks great to me, I guess you're just upset because it's not working properly? If so then there is a troubleshooting section.

[chipper 0]

yeh can't wait for SLX mod for ArmA it's in the works.

2 pics released, of the effects of shooting and the dust it kicks up, don't worry about the color of the dust he has already fixed it so it's more brown

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/4259/slxmod2tj1.jpg

http://img183.imageshack.us/my.php?image=slxmodmoreshootingho8.jpg