RKSL Studios

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

This is looking incredible, cant wait to have a play, how will this system work in a single seater harrier though? the plane will fly striaght as the pilot uses a designator to target?

have you experimented with weapons such as turrets or multiple turrets?

There version you see in the vid  is the single seat UAV system - For single seaters it will be modal.  Once you go into the turret the plane will stay on that heading and alt.  You find your target, lock it up and come out of the turret, you have full control.  Once you’ve destroyed the target, go back into the turret and unlock it or find another target.  Its almost identical to the real aircraft's systems apart from you won’t retain control.

I have been making custom weapons for testing for months now and have pretty much figured out how to do everything we want apart from the Anti Radiation Missiles and I think UNN may have a line on those.

[Shins 0]

Outstanding.

[Lor 0]

Once you go into the turret the plane will stay on that heading and alt. You find your target, lock it up and come out of the turret, you have full control. Once you’ve destroyed the target, go back into the turret and unlock it or find another target. Its almost identical to the real aircraft's systems apart from you won’t retain control.

This really is fantastic, and huge kudos to UNN for another scripting miracle. Along with the cargo system, this is another hugely impressive step forward.

One quick question - regarding going into the turret view - when you say the aircraft will stay on that heading and altitude, does this mean it'll actively maintain the heading and altitude it was on when you entered turret view, or will it maintain the attitude it was in when you enter turret view? Also, what about speed?

Again, beautiful work all around, and my thanks to the whole RKSL team.

[shockhorror 0]

Dear Santa,

I know it's a bit late but if you could see your way to providing a B17 for Arma that would be just fucking awsome.

Supreme work mate, this will open the doors for some seriously sophisticated addons.

[-HUNTER- 1]

Could this be modified or changed or anything so that the CCIP is possible, for the clusterbombs for instance? (It wouldnt really matter that much with cluster munitions I know)

Or have you allready thought of something for that?

[4 IN 1 0]

 

UNN better get get back ASAP to feed the hungry lads with details

(which means no girls for you tonight)

[UNN 0]

Thanks to all, for the positive responses.

@Franz

Quote[/b] ]Does this mean that the system is entirely separate from default turret functionality?

Yes, as far as the aircraft is concerned. You are still controlling a turret, as that’s the only way to capture mouse input, without using a dialog.

@Matt Rochelle

Quote[/b] ]once again we have showed to BIS that we have broken yet another game engine on our quest to enlightenment.

To be fair, BIS provide the functionality. Plus it's something that may come with restrictions. The system works fine in MP for single seat and UAV's. But may be susceptible to overloaded servers, when you have an aircraft crewed by two players. Our test so far with two player aircraft worked surprisingly well, but if someone starts to desynch, it could have an adverse effect. But if the pilot is desynching, then its bad news full stop. So any side effects it has on the designator will pale in comparison.

If BIS released something that didn't work 100% of the time, they would just get more Flak.

@bdfy

Quote[/b] ]Anyway i'm sure it's working so i wonder _how_ it's working ? what's the main idea you used ?

I thought that might be what you were asking, only the original question did read as dismissive rather than enquiring.

It's based on the old OFP technique of setposing an object relative to the vehicle, only this time with special consideration to MP. But it's still only possible thanks to Arma's new features.

@Hoot1988

Quote[/b] ]how will this system work in a single seater harrier though? the plane will fly striaght as the pilot uses a designator to target?

have you experimented with weapons such as turrets or multiple turrets?

The piloting of the aircaft while manning the designator, is taken up by the AI. For the UAV the AI pilot will follow the pre-defined waypoints. For single seat aircraft, the AI will adhere to the original heading (or waypoints if provided) but still maintain the current FlyInHeight, so you should not have to worry about slapping into the side of a mountain.

As for other weapon types, we will have to wait and see how it fares in real world MP games. Even in single player, the engine struggles to cope with weapons firing visible rounds from fast moving aircraft, but I have some ideas on how that might be fixed.

@HUNTER

Quote[/b] ]Could this be modified or changed or anything so that the CCIP is possible,

Not without calculating the trajectory the same way you would with a mortar or artillery round, to determine the impact point. Which is a lot of maths to compute for each frame. But it's certainly something we are going to look into.

[Benoist 0]

Now i demand a B17!

God, so much possibilities... thank you

[RN Malboeuf 12]

Quote[/b] ]It's based on the old OFP technique of setposing an object relative to the vehicle, only this time with special consideration to MP. But it's still only possible thanks to Arma's new features.

not really a sensation then... How are you going to make ai to use it correctly ?

Maybe it more promising  to try to make plane with helicopter simulation and try to adjust it's fight model to be look more like a plane ?

Anyway planes look completely flawed in arma...

[UNN 0]

Quote[/b] ]not really a sensation then

So should every new post on the forum be a sensation? It's just Arma modding after all, it's not supposed to be the next wonder of the world All we are doing is posting our progress on trying to meet our initial goals, of representing certain UK Armed forces. Some aspects of those goals, at one point, appeared to be out of reach. So by default, we are pleased if we can remove restrictions.

Quote[/b] ]How are you going to make ai to use it correctly ?

Does the AI have problems using the Laser Designator in Arma?

Quote[/b] ]Maybe it more promising  to try to make plane with helicopter simulation and try to adjust it's fight model to be look more like a plane ?

If it's possible, then someone will do it. No doubt, you will

Quote[/b] ]Anyway planes look completely flawed in arma, een static mounted weapons do not work correctly...

So what is your conclusion, forgot about aircraft in Arma? Or work to reduce the flaws?

[RN Malboeuf 12]

Quote[/b] ]So should every new post on the forum be a sensation? It's just Arma modding after all

it's definately new for arma but known for ofp/arma community. Cause idea is old there're lots of known flaws with it. Really no offece here, but it's far too early to say that it's plane turrets fix ))

Quote[/b] ]But it's still only possible thanks to Arma's new features.

I guess you're about new relative position and tilt fuctions ? yep, it makes realisation much better - no more troubles with tilts etc. But... I guess RKSL is going to produce A-130 ( like in CoD 4 ) with working turrets, but making ai to use it will be  a challenge. I mean how will you 'tell' the pilot that his plane got turrets so he can fly properly ? write new fsm or turrets will fire when they get luckely on target ?

All such scripted functions can work well with player but for ai that's a disaster... and i'd like arma to be fAIr

[UNN 0]

Quote[/b] ]Cause idea is old there're lots of known flaws with it.

I know it's old, but then, so am I. But just because something is old, does not mean all the possibilities have been explored. Perhaps you could explain these inherent, age related, flaws in further detail?

Quote[/b] ]All such scripted functions can work well with player but for ai that's a disaster... and i'd like arma to be fAIr

Is that all scripted functions, or just the ones you have written?

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

Quote[/b] ]It's based on the old OFP technique of setposing an object relative to the vehicle, only this time with special consideration to MP. But it's still only possible thanks to Arma's new features.

not really a sensation then... How are you going to make ai to use it correctly ?

Maybe it more promising  to try to make plane with helicopter simulation and try to adjust it's fight model to be look more like a plane ?

Anyway planes look completely flawed in arma...

You know,  I think you are most probably the most negative man on the forums.  Why cant you see this as a step forward rather than trying to drag everyone down?

[RN Malboeuf 12]

Quote[/b] ]You know,  I think you are most probably the most negative man on the forums

You mean i'm the only realist out there ?

just boring to see pages and pages of constant 'wow' in every topic on this forums - discussion is much more funny

UNN

I don't know all the details and especially goals of your scripting. But if i'm right you'll get a lot of troubles with ai - it won't be as effective as player can be.  

Quote[/b] ]Is that all scripted functions, or just the ones you have written?

all i ever saw for ofp/arma: deployed guns, delayed grenades, lean anims, knives...  - list can be endless. that's why i'm almost interested in Ai behavior first

[P226 0]

Work with great potential! Keep it up!

[[aps]gnat 28]

Love the off-target / double cross-hair thingy .... nice touch.

But I'd rather kick BIS door in to get them to fix the aircraft turret issue in the next patch

Surely it can't be a big patch/big job because just every other vehicle class can handle turrets

[Daniel 0]

Quote[/b] ]You mean i'm the only realist out there

Nope, definately the most negative.

[Prydain 1]

You know, I think you are most probably the most negative man on the forums.

He sounds more like an emo child waiting for the sky to fall. Just let him soliloquise while we all previse that your progress is going to be awesome.

Also, the amount of people who anticipate an AC-130 is getting annoying even for a humble browser. Mabey its because I read what the RKSL website says your goals are.

[[aps]gnat 28]

Daniel @ Jan. 06 2008,09:26)]

Quote[/b] ]You mean i'm the only realist out there

Nope, definately the most negative.

Yep, Mr Blackcloud most of the time.

[RN Malboeuf 12]

Quote[/b] ]Maybe it more promising  to try to make plane with helicopter simulation and try to adjust it's fight model to be look more like a plane ?

If it's possible, then someone will do it. No doubt, you will

for ex. Gnat is trying

http://www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin....=61690;

Quote[/b] ]Near perfect to fly like a plane

I guess he can give some tips if you're interested.

though take-off for standart plane with helicopter simulation will be a challenge ))

[UNN 0]

@bdfy

Quote[/b] ]I don't know all the details and especially goals of your scripting. But if i'm right you'll get a lot of troubles with ai - it won't be as effective as player can be.

Thats kind of stating the obvious. As far as I'm concerened the AI will not be as effective as a human in computer games for some time to come.

Quote[/b] ]all i ever saw for ofp/arma: deployed guns, delayed grenades, lean anims, knives...  - list can be endless. that's why i'm almost interested in Ai behavior first

I can't speak for other addons, but my AI Forward Observer certainly demonstrates I am willing to put the effort into allowing the AI to make use of my scripts and addons.

As far as the Laser Designator goes, in OFP the AI had no problem marking targets, so I assume the same thing still stands for Arma. Obviously it's not going to target a building based on suspicion alone, so some intervention has to be made by the mission maker, at some point.

If effective AI behaviour in other peoples addons, realy is the point your interested in. Then it might be better to re-think your lines of enquiry.

@Gnat

Quote[/b] ]But I'd rather kick BIS door in to get them to fix the aircraft turret issue in the next patch

For WWII bombers and the like it would be ideal. But that would only cover a small part of whats required to make a Laser Designator, that works the way I demonstrated in the video. You need a lot more than just that. It would only really apply to the MP side, where two people are sharing the same vehicle on a laggy server.

As it stands atm, there is at least a possibility that multiple turrets can be used in MP, and a definite they can be used in SP. But anything that helps improve the performance will be much welcomed.

@bdfy

Quote[/b] ]I guess he can give some tips if you're interested.

I know Gnats been working on this for a while and a good job he’s done to. I'm also fully aware of how to achieve such results.

If you were so concerned with AI behaviour and balance. You should already realise that simulating an AI controlled, fixed wing aircraft, using the helicopter class, will require a massive amount of scripting for regular landings and take offs. So you are kind of contradicting yourself. Gnats addon, is good enough as it is, with just vertical landings e.t.c But I would not want to try and apply the same principle to a Tornado.

I don't think you understand what’s involved with the Laser Designator, have you even watched the video? To be honest, it just sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder, for some reason, best known to yourself.

[-HUNTER- 1]

Right, Ive just watched the video again, and well some questions!

It is possible to have more information in the screen?

And offcourse I know its wip and higharmatech.

@RKSL It would be nice to have more flight data visible from the UAV itself, and also more visual information about the FLIR it self. What direction its looking at for instance oposed to the aircraft.

Or are we getting different layouts so to speak to match the various aircraft this is going to be modified into?

Because I can imaging offcourse that the harrier would have allot different information displayed then a UAV.

@UNN And in the video a part is shown where three tanks get targetted but no weapons are used. But the laser needs to be on all the time till bomb hits target right? Or can you engage more then just one target? As shown in the video?

Now all we need is real working IR...

>> GREAT WORK!

Combined with the excellent models rock is making, its just going to be extremely f....ing cool to use these kind of addons. I can just imaging flying over a battlefield in which ground forces are operating. Observing enemy movements and helping out the ground forces in achieving their mission.

I take it this also works with other weapons like hellfires?

Personally Ive been wanting THIS right here since start of OFP...

Combined with a good aircraft to put this stuff into, like the Tornado and the Harrier, and all the other 20 odd addons rock is making! Its just going to be fantastic.

[Prydain 1]

I take it this also works with other weapons like hellfires?

We use Brimstone don't we? One thing I want to know is it able to land itself? I can just imagine you guys in JAO having to be called up to do something else but your stuck tending to the UAV until it lands. Is it going to be autonomous in every area?

What about the view distance? Will zooming in defy zoom distance barriers?

And is the Reaper/Predator the only UAV type?

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

@RKSL It would be nice to have more flight data visible from the UAV itself, and also more visual information about the FLIR it self. What direction its looking at for instance oposed to the aircraft.

What you are seeing is the “Gunner’s†view and it is still very much WIP.  Predators are crewed by 2 men. A Pilot and an Observer/Gunner.  The Pilot’s view will have full flight instrumentation, there is no need to have flight instrumentation on the Gunner’s view..

Or are we getting different layouts so to speak to match the various aircraft this is going to be modified into?

Because I can imaging offcourse that the harrier would have allot different information displayed then a UAV.

The layout will be different as will any relevant and practical information.

@UNN And in the video a part is shown where three tanks get targetted but no weapons are used. But the laser needs to be on all the time till bomb hits target right? Or can you engage more then just one target? As shown in the video?

You aren’t the first to mis-understand what exactly is going on. (I might see about doing a voice over and explain the system properly.)  To explain that a bit more, what you are seeing is the laser point being fine tuned.  

You have to realise that the turret action is fully mouse controlled/ So if you have used the AH1’s optics to track a target whilst moving you will know how hard it is to keep the crosshairs on the target.  What you see there is UNN moving the cursor to be exactly on top of the tank.  It’s a method of fine tuning the position of the laser spot.

Just like the real world you can only engage one target at a time..

I take it this also works with other weapons like hellfires?

This will work with any weapon that can “see†a laser marker.

We use Brimstone don't we?

As far as I know we use only use Hellfire on the Apache AH1. Brimstone is for use with Tornado GR4 and Harrier GR9 only.  The last I read the AH1’s hadn’t be upgraded to support Brimstone yet.

One thing I want to know is it able to land itself? I can just imagine you guys in JAO having to be called up to do something else but your stuck tending to the UAV until it lands. Is it going to be autonomous in every area?

It is a normal plane in every sense.  It will need a pilot and gunner. This IS NOT a dialog or GUI system like other methods, the turret is part of the plane and behaves just like the turret on a helicopter.

What about the view distance? Will zooming in defy zoom distance barriers?

The zoom uses the same optic function as the AH1 et al.  It has exactly the same limits as any other vehicle and zoom.

And is the Reaper/Predator the only UAV type?

The system can be applied to any UAV as long as it is modeled properly.

The UK uses a wide range of UAVs:

- Predator A – USAF drones leased for RAF ops project will end once the RAF has enough Reaper UAVs.

- Reaper (Predator B) – 3 in the Inventory, with 10 more on order.

- Herti – Currently undergoing operational testing in Afghanistan.

- Phoenix – Artillery Spotting system – coming to the end of its service life

- Desert Hawk – Hand Launched mini UAV

Future Systems

- Watchkeeper – aka Hermes 450 – should enter service 2010

- Corax – Stealthy UAV Testbed.

[UNN 0]

It would be nice to have more flight data visible from the UAV itself, and also more visual information about the FLIR it self.

I should have said, the HUD is something I knocked up based on footage from YouTube. I could not seem to find any references for the actual Predator HUD. I'm probably the least knowledgeable in the team, when it comes to military matters. So don't take my experiments as the final version, it still needs a health dose of reality

In some respects it's really more of a proof of concept, rather than WIP. We put together just enough functionality for MP testing and to satisfy ourselves, that we could do most of what we wanted.

Quote[/b] ]And in the video a part is shown where three tanks get targetted but no weapons are used. But the laser needs to be on all the time till bomb hits target right?

That’s just me quickly running through the different functions. I set the mission up, so once the warehouse is targeted, the AI Harrier is allowed to make its approach against a fixed target. But there is no reason why the scripts can't be modified to do other things, either selecting or relaying, multiple targets individually or with a bounding box e.t.c From our point of view, it's opened up a lot of potential for all kinds of different applications.

Quote[/b] ]Now all we need is real working IR...

I've been thinking along these lines myself, I will let you know if anything comes of it.

It is a normal plane in every sense.  It will need a pilot and gunner. This IS NOT a dialog or GUI system like other methods, the turret is part of the plane and behaves just like the turret on a helicopter.

Yeah, although I didn't get the chance to show it in the video, the visible parts of the turret on the Predator, swivel and tilt according to the players input.

Is it going to be autonomous in every area?

We tested three different set-ups;

Remote UAV accessed from a ground station. Depending on what’s is available in the community, we may add our own interface for plotting waypoints e.t.c

Single seat aircraft with the ability for the player to switch between the gunner and pilots position.

Multi seat aircraft, with a player as pilot and at least one player as gunner.

While we may not implement all of the above, the functionality is there for anyone who wants it.

Quote[/b] ]What about the view distance? Will zooming in defy zoom distance barriers?

In the video, the view distance is set to 2000 meters and the pre-set altitude is 750m. I did notice that the 2000m view distance relates to terrain only, objects will only become visible from around 1000 to 1500 meters away.