Logical South Sahrani Kits

[DUX0726 0]

I am not an add-on maker but I do have a request that I would like to humbly submit to those of you that might be interested. ArmA takes place in what for all intensive purposes is a 3rd world country. Most 3rd world countries that have organized militaries use primarily surplus equipment, especially for their regular troops. I personally think that the South Sahrani troops are too well equipped and would love to see a new version of them:

1.) wearing more appropriate camouflage, (the 6-color desert seems out of place in a country that is 2/3rds lush)

2.) Steel Pot helmets, (even in the country of Mexico they still issue steel-pots instead of Kevlar, with parade dress being the exception; they use fake Kevlar shells during parades, etc.)

3.) and outdated body-armor or none at all (I seriously doubt that they would be able to afford interceptor body armor for all of their troops. Surplus German II-A flak-jackets with a modified cover seems more appropriate to their economic situation and tropical location)

Please let me know what you think if you are interested. I would love to hear some logistical ideas about what they might look like.

[low light 0]

I agree that should be the case... BUT:

[*]South Sahrani is a an oil rich nation similar to possibly to Saudi Arabia and therefore possibly has a lot of money to spend on defence. It is also a monarchy, again like Saudi Arabia, which spends money on defence and procures elite equipment for a personal/elite guard for the monarch. So in this case the load-outs of the Southern military seems feasible.

[*]With regard to the camouflage, I would hazard a guess and say that the South would probably be more interested in protecting itself than to ever think about invading the North, therefore it is also feasible that the south would opt for the 6 colour desert variant, since that would be their area of operation (the south being predominantly desert or arid climate).

I would hope that the south would have some troops in suitable camouflage to operate in the north, but these would be for troops such as a Special operations force, used to enter the North to undertake clandestine operations. Thinking about this though, the South would probably have spies operating in the North, just as the north would ave spies in the south, to co-ordinate resistance or insurgency operations, these people would be dressed like civilians.

I personally think that the only real need for new kit would be for the North to have some desert/arid climate camouflage and the south to have some temperate camouflage (for specialist operations).

[DUX0726 0]

Perhaps I am being a little stingy in my suspension of disbelief for the topography of the game, but the reason that I think that South Sahrani would not have such nice equipment is because it is such a small country. I only counted 6 oil wells. (Not a great deal of wealth for a whole country to draw upon) It seems to me that the economy of South Sahrani is primarily based upon tourism, as indicated by the large bungalow/hotel spread on the western side of the territory. Also, it looked to me as if 2/3rds of South Sahrani was dominated by grass and trees interspersed with more rocky terrain. Only the bottom ~1/3rd of the landscape actually contains sand as its defining characteristic.

Judging by the amount of territory and size of most of the cities, and coupled with what I believe to be a tourist economy, only slightly augmented by small oil deposits; I still would tend to think that the defense budget for the country would be quite small and probably only support a military force of less than 600 troops all totaled. I could see the Royal Guards being well equipped, but in a country that has so few resources and troops and equipment; I just can’t see the average grunt being all that well off. Olive Drab uniforms, Steel Pot helmets, little to no body armor, and old FN-FAL or G-3 weapons instead of current U.S. issue M-16’s would be the order of the day in my estimation.

I do like your idea about special operations units and spies. I think that South Sahrani would indeed have a cadre of those types of specialists, and plain-clothes would certianly be required for such operations, by and large.

[low light 0]

I have a feeling that this issue would get too complicated if we discussed it in minute detail, no one has a CIA factfile on Sahrani (though there will no doubt be one made, there was one for Tonal and that proved very useful for mission making, in my books anyway). We don't know the economic details of the country to work out what they can and can't afford.

I would just wait and see what the addon community comes up with. There are already a smattering of NATO re-skins for the US force. Give it enough time and the South Sahrani military will be turned into a resistance force, and your wishes will probably be met. If not you could always edit your missions by putting bits and pieces together to create your ideal 'world'. Check out OFPEC for advice on editing.

[DUX0726 0]

Agreed, and a very fair assessment I think. My previous views were based upon the idea of the South Sahrani forces being an Army with one strategic purpose: To hold-up any Northern Sahrani invasion at the choke-point of Corazol for 12 to 24 hours so that government papers could be shredded and burned, the ruling family could be evacuated from the country, and so that limited guerilla actions could be set-up until the arrival of U.N. assistance. A scenario very much in accordance with what Kuwait did after suffering invasion by Iraq in 1990, albeit on a much more “low-rent†scale.

[badlymad 0]

Personally, seeing how the U.S is responsible for training S. Sahrani forces, i could see the army generally being equipped with American hand me downs. PASGT helmets without covers, generic body armor instead of Interceptors, and so on. I don't really mind M16A2s, since the U.S is beginning to outmode them, and they are in the arsenals of many western-aligned developing nations.

In regards to camoflauge, an olive drab or tan uniform might fit, or even a neutral scheme like lizard stripe or DPM.

[DUX0726 0]

Well stated. I think you have some very logical ideas there. I'm not going to lie though, I love the Steel-Pots more than the Kevlar helmets. To me, they just have more kitch factor, and I won't deny being a fan of certain cliches.

[Clavicula_nox4817 0]

Well, the Interceptor vest really isn't all that expensive, its the SAPI plates that run the cost up. The full set minus any shoulder or tigh pieces is somewhere around $1,440. The 2 plates are just under $900 and the vest itself is $400something. The only reason I know this is because my vest was stolen last March and I had to foot the bill.

M16A2s are around $6-700 new and for used you can assume at the very least a 10% depreciation value.

I dunno, I can see both arguments for having a good loadout and a cheap but functional loadout.

[low light 0]

I personnaly would have prefered a South Sahrani military in the way you have described DUX0726. It would have made the south seem a little bit more raggedy (I think your word kitch is much better) and not so polished as it looks; and in need of help from the US forces. Though I feel the elite guard should have the equipment they have now.

I'm sure you'll get your wish of 'Steel-pot' helmets when some one get round to making one or once the tools are released.

[Ceriy 0]

The South Sahrani doesn't have a huge army, so they could afford to have good equipment for their troops.

[DUX0726 0]

Please forgive the crude nature of my sketch but this is an approximation of what I had in mind. (based upon my original thoughts and some really great suggestions so far)

-IMAGE TAKEN DOWN BECAUSE IT HAS BEEN SUPERCEDED BY A MORE ADVANCED DRAFT-

[Clavicula_nox4817 0]

You know, that's not a bad concept at all. Yeah, I think the older style flak jackets work out really well, but would it be better for the vest to match the OD of the uniform or would you want it to stay in that woodland pattern?

[DUX0726 0]

My thoughts on that are that they were just given the old PASGT vests by the U.S. so it's a mish-mash of their old equiptment and their new "hand me downs."

...and thanks, I'm glad you dig it!

[mickuzy 0]

fiji has a pretty weak economy, not sure if it is 3rd world or 1st world but still it has kevlar helmets

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/6160649.stm

[Clavicula_nox4817 0]

fiji has a pretty weak economy, not sure if it is 3rd world or 1st world but still it has kevlar helmets

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/6160649.stm

Well, 1st world, 2nd world, and 3rd world are old Cold War definitions and are outdated. 1st World was the US and USSR, 2nd world was basically NATO and Warsaw Pact countries, and third world was like the big Misc assortment. Right now, it really doesn't mean what it originally was intended to mean. Sorry for OT

[MAA3057 0]

DUX, everytime I got to Mexico, they are either wearing OD tops or Kevlars. Never seen them wearing steel pots.

[DUX0726 0]

I have to admit I'm probably not as up to date on the Mexican kit as I should be but, as I stated earlier, the "Steel Pot" idea really is more of a personal preference. I just don't like the "Fritz"; it looks to "wehrmacht" for my tastes. Although I usually keep that to myself because I know it's a big "no-no" to make that affiliation in the U.S. military. Ultimately my desire to see the South Sahrani in them is mostly to help "set them aside" from the modern U.S. gear. I know they are not common anymore but some armies still use them. Why not the South Sahrani, IMHO.

BTW, the knee-pads that I have on him are the soft "soccer player" variety, dyed Israeli O.D. green. (Another cost-cutting element of the defense budget in my mind) All the soldiers would look like this except for prehaps the snipers, in that case i would just substitute the Steel-Pot with an O.D. knit cap.

Anyone else have a different take on it?

[MAA3057 0]

The way I see it is that the US donated their surplus to the South Sahaiahisnas Army just like they have the Iraqis in RL. I like it the way it is, but I do understand your point of view completely.

[Clavicula_nox4817 0]

Yeah, I understand wanting to set them apart. Right now the RACS are basically US Soldiers in a slightly different colored Gulf War era uniform. I like your concept drawing.

[DUX0726 0]

I'm not much of an artist. I'd really dig seeing someone improve upon it and add their own touches: really get creative and explain every change with a back-story. I think it would be fun.

[olemissrebel 0]

the drawing is understandable, but remember, that type of flak jacket had replaceable covers, so it wouldnt be that unlikely to have an OD cover on it.

[low light 0]

I'm not much of an artist. I'd really dig seeing someone improve upon it and add their own touches: really get creative and explain every change with a back-story. I think it would be fun.

I think a Back story and a little bit more information about the state of South Sahrani would be very helpful. I am trying to learn how to make missions and I am finding that the biggest problem for creativity is not having a defined parameters about what makes up the State of Sahrani. As I mentioned before a CIA fact file type document, much like the Tonal one, would be of great help to mission makers. I have made many more (rather crappy, but playable) missions for Tonal than any other MOD Island.

Great Concept drawing Dux. It looks almost 1960's Viewtnam-esque. I think you should take precedence and do a back story of your own and see if it sticks. It might even inspire someone to turn your concept into (virtual)-reality.

Regarding the Germanification of US uniforms: Your impression is shared by many. Here is an extract from a site called Slate.com, where there is a very good point put across (not a technical site but interesting to see this view point):

Quote[/b] ]"…The use of gray as the dominant color of the new uniforms [ACU: UCP] completes the Germanification of US combat outfits. Coupled with the evolution of the Kevlar helmet to look surpassingly Wehrmacht-like, the new units look sehr deutsch, nicht wahr?

Once upon a time (up to 1900, actually), the Germans wore colorful uniforms like everybody else. Prussian Blue. It was the adoption of khaki by British troops in the Boer War (those scarlet tunics were just too easy a mark for Boer riflemen) that persuaded the German general staff to adopt the Feldgrau, Field Gray. As the US Army has finally discovered, greenish gray is the best all-around-color-in-most-environments-to-be-less-visible. The Germans wore feldgrau during the great offensive of August 1914, even using it to cover up those extremely silly pickelstube helmets that sat on their heads. [That the French won the Battle of the Marne wearing red caps and red trousers seems nothing short of astonishining.] By 1915, the Germans started wearing the steel helmets we usually associate with World War II. The design of those helmets afforded better protection against head and neck wounds than did the helmets adopted by the French (not too bad) and the British (terrible). The poor Russians wore no helmets at all.

Anyway, the Germans never gave up the feldgrau, even post-1945. They were quick to adopt the beret as standard issue heqadgear, though, and the ensuing look was very Euro/NATO. And Euro/NATO, if I may say, is exactly the way I would describe the new US Army look. Kinda ironic, given Iraq and all, but there you are."

[Col. Faulkner 0]

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[DUX0726 0]

That's very encouraging and nice of you Low-Light, but truth-be-told, I am really more interested in a group project sort of approach to this. (if possible) We shall see though. Thanks.

[Jahve 0]

Iraqis are given 6color, why not Sahrani?