Saudia Arabia Ask US To Reduce Force

[Akira 0]

Saudia Arabia has asked the US to reduce its force size. Bin Laden claims one of his main grievances is that the US has forces in his home country (which is clearly hogwash). Saw a poll where 51% said we shouldn't leave. That got me thinking (I know...it happens sometimes and it scares me too....)

Even though I could be termed a "nationalist" by some here, if a country asks us to reduce the size of our present force, or even to leave, then wouldn't it be our duty to leave. It is THEIR country after all. I say we should leave, and don't come cryin' to us if something happens.

Only sticky point is if the bases or posts are agreed to be "US territory". If there is a contract or agreement, then I say we can use them, but that doesn't mean to say we shouldn't reduce the size of force....

Just my opinion...

[Pete 1]

yup, i dont really know what is the big problem with them desiring usa to leave.

or what stops you from leaving, if russia or china would have troops on american soil then you would expect them to leave when you ask them to, nothing more to it.

but...i have a feeling that when you leave saudi-arabia then more nations would ask you to leave later on, japan and italy are both bitter for accidents/crimes caused by american soldiers on there territory, and perhaps in the future you would have to leave them too.

same with germany for example, there is no threat towards germany, no "reason" for nato base there.

so i quess that the only reason for you wanting to stay in saudi is to ensure "global power" in the future, a base every where in the world so that a fast strike can be made against any nation you would want to, it would be impossible without these bases and american military power would be reduced to something similiar and china and russia has now.

dangerous, but slow....

we will see what happens, but i quess usa/nato will have to do as the saudis ask them to, anything else could cause a major conflict there too (not necessary a armed one, but diplomatic ((no oil?)))

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ Jan. 28 2002,17:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Saudia Arabia has asked the US to reduce its force size. Bin Laden claims one of his main grievances is that the US has forces in his home country (which is clearly hogwash). Saw a poll where 51% said we shouldn't leave. That got me thinking (I know...it happens sometimes and it scares me too....)

Even though I could be termed a "nationalist" by some here, if a country asks us to reduce the size of our present force, or even to leave, then wouldn't it be our duty to leave. It is THEIR country after all. I say we should leave, and don't come cryin' to us if something happens.

Only sticky point is if the bases or posts are agreed to be "US territory". If there is a contract or agreement, then I say we can use them, but that doesn't mean to say we shouldn't reduce the size of force....

Just my opinion...<span id='postcolor'>

In another context - on a "micro level" - it goes like this.

You are a student living away from your hometown. A friend of yours is also going to study at your university. You agree that he can stay in your flat for a couple of months until he finds a place of his own. Unfortunately he shows no signs of moving out, and the two months have all of a sudden become half a year. He is a nice fellow but you're tired of him. So, you ask him in a kind and polite manner that it's on high time he finds another place to live. And of course, he does.

It's as simple as that!

[Wobble 1]

japan and italy are both bitter for accidents/crimes caused by american soldiers on there territory

such as...... ??

I know the US POW's cuse alot of crimes in Japan by giving Jap officers so many heads that they just had to practice chopping a few off...

same with germany for example, there is no threat towards germany, no "reason" for nato base there.

Germany is part of NATO.. so they ahve a NATO base.. wow.. amazing

so i quess that the only reason for you wanting to stay in saudi is to ensure "global power" in the future

or maby its because Saddam never allowed the UN inspectors to look at suspected nucker and biological weapons facilities and storage ares there.. perhaps that has something to do with it??

You are a student living away from your hometown. A friend of yours is also going to study at your university. You agree that he can stay in your flat for a couple of months until he finds a place of his own. Unfortunately he shows no signs of moving out, and the two months have all of a sudden become half a year. He is a nice fellow but you're tired of him. So, you ask him in a kind and polite manner that it's on high time he finds another place to live. And of course, he does.

It's as simple as that!

did your buddy help save your people and fight a war there? is there a NATO base there with troops and aircraft of many many other nations on yer "flat"

stupid analogy.. it will NEVER be as simple as that

[brgnorway 0]

Of course it's not that simple. But nevertheless, if you're not wanted in their country, you should leave. It doesnt matter if you helped them fight of their enemy. I doesn't give you a claim to stay on their territory.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

japan and italy are both bitter for accidents/crimes caused by american soldiers on there territory

<span id='postcolor'>

Japan: American soldiers raped and killed a schoolgirl.

Italy: American fighter jet cut of a wire on a cable wagon, causing it to fall to the ground. Many people killed and the pilot found not guilty by american court.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Wobble @ Jan. 29 2002,01:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">japan and italy are both bitter for accidents/crimes caused by american soldiers on there territory

such as......  ??

such as the f-14 or f-15 that cut the ski lift because the pilot was flying too low and thus killed 20 ppl - cos he wanted to show off. plus noise pollution

same with germany for example, there is no threat towards germany, no "reason" for nato base there.

Germany is part of NATO.. so they ahve a NATO base..  wow.. amazing

nope, not every NATO country has a base in Germany. besides, lots of other NATO countries, such as Poland have no NATO base in their countries. wots up with that.

so i quess that the only reason for you wanting to stay in saudi is to ensure "global power" in the future

or maby its because Saddam never allowed the UN inspectors to look at suspected nucker and biological weapons facilities and storage ares there.. perhaps that has something to do with it??

why? not saudi's problem if the UN is not allowed to do the inspection job.

You are a student living away from your hometown. A friend of yours is also going to study at your university. You agree that he can stay in your flat for a couple of months until he finds a place of his own. Unfortunately he shows no signs of moving out, and the two months have all of a sudden become half a year. He is a nice fellow but you're tired of him. So, you ask him in a kind and polite manner that it's on high time he finds another place to live. And of course, he does.

It's as simple as that!

did your buddy help save your people and fight a war there? is there a NATO base there with troops and aircraft of many many other nations on yer "flat"

doesnt matter what mate has done. it is still my flat. hence I rule, nobody else

stupid analogy.. it will NEVER be as simple as that

same goes for u<span id='postcolor'>

lets see if the italics worked

[Wobble 1]

doesnt matter what mate has done. it is still my flat. hence I rule, nobody else

It would be nice if the world worked that way wouldent it.

same goes for u

mine wasnt analogy.. its is waht actually happened..

Persoanlly I wish the US or NATO never went into the arab world to do ANYTHING.. let the diaperheads sort it out themselves... worst case scenario is there wont bee too many of them after long.. not a problem in my eyes

though thats just my personal opinion.. and I dont want any sht about it.. since ive seen much worse on here.

why? not saudi's problem if the UN is not allowed to do the inspection job

since they are ally to NATO countries (US among others) then yes it IS their problem.

[brgnorway 0]

For wobble:

On September 4, 1995, a 12-year-old elementary school girl was abducted, forced into a rented car, then bound, beaten, and raped by two American marines and a sailor. This incident caused wide-spread protests against the American military bases throughout Okinawa and the rest of Japan.

Article here:

http://www.jpri.org/jpri/public/crit6.12.html

Relatives of the victims and ordinary Italians reacted with outrage to the acquittal of an American marine pilot whose plane, flying too low and faster than rules permitted, cut through a cable car line at an Italian ski resort last February and caused the deaths of 20 people. A US military jury at Camp Lejeune, North Carolina found Capt. Richard Ashby, 31, not guilty of involuntary homicide and manslaughter Thursday after a 17-day court martial.

Article here:

http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/mar1999/ital-m06.shtml

[brgnorway 0]

It would be nice if the world worked that way wouldent it.

It does. You had to leave the Philiphines.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Wobble @ Jan. 29 2002,02:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">doesnt matter what mate has done. it is still my flat. hence I rule, nobody else

It would be nice if the world worked that way wouldent it.

national sovereignty, boy! if u mess with other ppl's nations, ie violate their national sovereignty, u gonna have a war at yer hands. the world works this way. example: if turkey decides they want a military base in Athens, we are going to bomb them all the way back to bloody wherever they are from.

same goes for u

mine wasnt analogy.. its is waht actually happened..

Persoanlly I wish the US or NATO never went into the arab world to do ANYTHING.. let the diaperheads sort it out themselves... worst case scenario is there wont bee too many of them after long.. not a problem in my eyes

though thats just my personal opinion.. and I dont want any sht about it.. since ive seen much worse on here.

then vote for a government that is gonna leave them alone? democracy is cool, if u know how it works

why? not saudi's problem if the UN is not allowed to do the inspection job

since they are ally to NATO countries (US among others) then yes it IS their problem.

umm, those were UN weapons inspectors, hence i dont see the validity of ur argument? and they are not allied to NATO, they are merely friendly towards some of NATo. Big difference. <span id='postcolor'>

i love those italics

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Ex-RoNiN @ Jan. 29 2002,02:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

i love those italics

So do I

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ Jan. 29 2002,02:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

i love those italics

So do I   <span id='postcolor'>

liar! if you would, then u would use them

*sniff sniff*

[Pete 1]

thanks exronin and bgnorway, those are just the incidents i refered to, but i didnt bother to write the stories of them as i thought it was known to everyone.

not that the rapemurder of the schoolgirl is any less horrible, but the cablecar incident is something that makes nobody want a nato base in there country, that the pilot was found not quilty (by american court) is a scandal....20 people are dead cos of him, and only him..he broke the rules and killed them even if it was by accident he is quilty and should have been punished.

the simple fact is, if saudis dont want usa there, usa has no say in the matter, none what so ever.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Pete @ Jan. 29 2002,02:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">the simple fact is, if saudis dont want usa there, usa has no say in the matter, none what so ever.<span id='postcolor'>

because it is THEIR country, period!!!!

that is national sovereignty, and yes, countries other than the US are entitled to that as well, whether the US likes that or not!!!!!!!!!

[Wobble 1]

yall just believe whatever you want... '

as for the rape thing and the plane crash... so what? is that really a big enough reason to want an entire nation's people leave..

well here on the US black people, chines, Mexicans,..etc commit crimes every day.. I guess the entire population should leave huh..

dont comment, I dont care what you think anyway.

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Ex-RoNiN @ Jan. 29 2002,02:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

i love those italics

So do I   <span id='postcolor'>

liar! if you would, then u would use them

*sniff sniff*

<span id='postcolor'>

If you say so.........there you are!

Did it work?

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ Jan. 29 2002,02:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

i love those italics

So do I   <span id='postcolor'>

liar! if you would, then u would use them

*sniff sniff*

<span id='postcolor'>

If you say so.........there you are!

Did it work?<span id='postcolor'>

yay!

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">yall just believe whatever you want...  '

as for the rape thing and the plane crash... so what?  is that really a big enough reason to want an entire nation's people leave..

well here on the US black people, chines, Mexicans,..etc commit crimes every day.. I guess the entire population should leave huh..

dont comment, I dont care what you think anyway.<span id='postcolor'>

I thought we were talking about sovereign countries, not ethnic groups in US. Or do you suggest that US citizens that are black, chineese, greek etc are not REALLY americans?

[Pete 1]

yall just believe whatever you want... '

as for the rape thing and the plane crash... so what? is that really a big enough reason to want an entire nation's people leave..

yes, it is a reason good enough...there were more rapes than one too btw, and murders.

and its not a "entire nations people"..just the army that really has no reason for being there in the first place.

well here on the US black people, chines, Mexicans,..etc commit crimes every day.. I guess the entire population should leave huh..

you forgot to add "white" to that...dont forget who were there first.

and still....they live there, they are american citizens, as american as you...if they are not then american govt has the right to kick them out.

what was your point anyways?....we are talking about a army, not "race"

dont comment, I dont care what you think anyway.

too late, you should not write that in the bottom.....its the last thing i read

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Wobble @ Jan. 29 2002,02:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

dont comment, I dont care what you think anyway.

<span id='postcolor'>

about analogy - that statement reminds me of two things in general: american foreign policy/american gunboat diplomacy!

[Oligo 1]

If Wobble can be considered a typical U.S. adult with his opinions, then there apparently does exist an emerging gap of ideology between europe and the U.S. This ideological gap was also discussed in a recent article in Time.

Reading Wobbles text is like reading something written by an alien being. If he cannot grasp this thing about reducing force in Saudi Arabia (which is not even a total pullout!), then there is no space for argumentative discussion, since the basis of though are just too different.

I understand your words Wobble, but I do not understand the mind nor reason behind them.  

[MrLaggy 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ Jan. 29 2002,10:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If Wobble can be considered a typical U.S. adult with his opinions, then there apparently does exist an emerging gap of ideology between europe and the U.S.<span id='postcolor'>

Of course there's a big gap: most European nations have had their empires and seen what a folly they really were, whereas Americans are only just coming to discover that imperialism is a guaranteed route to a nation's demise.

I mean that quite seriously: recently I was reading a history of the British rule in India and thinking just how the arrogance and utter disregard for the local culture was so similar to modern America's opinion of the rest of the world. Even to the extent of believing on several occasions that they controlled Afghanistan because they'd bought off the local leaders... though hopefully the current armies won't get wiped out when the locals tire of them, the way their predecessors did.

[Oligo 1]

What you didn't consider, is the emergence of kick ass new technologies. Today, the imperialist country can wield technology almost magical compared to the tech of the british empire. We're not there quite yet, but pretty soon (I'd imagine) you can exert absolute control over every human mind with your technology. Then, nobody in the planet will be allowed to think anything except The Truth as shown on CNN. Resistance will be futile and you're stuck with that shit forever.

Thus, the adult countries of Europe should get their act together and keep to their sober ideologies.

[MrLaggy 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ Jan. 29 2002,14:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What you didn't consider, is the emergence of kick ass new technologies. Today, the imperialist country can wield technology almost magical compared to the tech of the british empire.<span id='postcolor'>

And that's precisely the situation the British were in at the time: their weaponry *was* magical compared to the weapons available to the Afghans, with vastly superior range and killing power, and their conquest of Afghanistan was almost as rapid as America's.

Of course that didn't benefit them in the slightest when the Afghans bought the same weapons and the British had to escape from Kabul on foot and horseback in a country where almost everyone wanted to kill them, and where their worst fear was that the men would leave them alive for the women to deal with... just as it won't benefit America if they have to flee in Blackhawks and the Afghans have been buying up modern Russian and Chinese missiles.

[Oligo 1]

Technology is developing at an exponential phase. Currently determination can still beat technology (determined people brought down the WTC), but how long will that last? How long an invidual can still extract his revenge against the consensus? How soon dissidence becomes impossible?