Helicopters in AA

[Journeyman 0]

Maybe people should start to realise, that you can`t control a chopper with the digital inputs from an keyboard, ore with the mouse.

That is what analogue flight control systems are made for.

Agreed. So it would be wonderful if there were veteran mode in which people need joystics to control chopper properly in ArmA.

*Still we need caded mode because none of all us have joystics.

Disagree entirely! Like I said before I can fly choppers in FS 2004 and FSX on full realism with either keyboard/mouse/ game pad or joystick and I flew choppers in OFP most of the time with my mouse! A self-centering joystick is the easiest way to fly but any controller will work it just takes familiarity with which ever you are using. The controller isn't the issue here instead it is the way ArmA is modelling (or not) real heli flight dynamics!

[frederf 0]

Someone said one of the primary factors in making a helicopter in ArmA is the distribution of mass and total mass. Clearly this affects the intertial tensor (collection of moments of inertia in yaw, pitch, and bank) as well as the "balance" of the craft. Also total mass effects speed.

Movement of a helo through the air must be a result of the vector sum of the forces on the helo. But do they take into consideration aerodynamic forces on the body of the helo? Does the rotor wash straight down on the body of the helo act like the fins on a dart, stabilizing it from roll? Can you fly an ArmA helo sideways as fast as you can forward (neglecting the huge air resistence)? At high speed does the vertical stabilizer and rudder have a noticeable effect?

Heck, is this whole artificial yaw/roll transition hardcoded? It makes no sense to me that rudder/tailrotor at high speed would cause roll.. isn't that what the main rotor stick left/right is for?

[funnyguy1 0]

Perhaps we could do with one of those vote polls setting up about the new flight models?

got my vote...

[Journeyman 0]

I've made a video of the Apache flight behaviour in FSX! .... FSX is the latest of Micro$ofts flight sims and has arguably the most accurate of flight dynamics for aircraft and choppers. The Apache is an addon by First Class Simulations and is a good solid product. I always fly on max realism in Flight Simulator and this video is just me making lots of big movements on the cyclic stick and rudder controls. Notice how the Apache responds at its own pace no matter how hard and quickly I move the stick!

FSX Apache Manoeuvres  .. (Right click and Save target as)

Of course I know that FSX is a dedicated flight simulator and I don't expect ArmA to come this close to reality, but it does serve as a useful comparison for those who already have ArmA!  

[meyamoti 0]

Hmm..almost creepy how it is watching that video how it reminds me of using franze apache..still I would kind of thought that for a flight sim,the helicopter would be more accurate. Oh well,nothing wrong with it as long as you didn't pay for it. The apache I mean,the flight sim goes without saying.

Unfortunatly we don't really have any videos demnstrating maneuvers and whatnot of this in armed assault,only one of dedicated helicopter flying would be the Mi-17 with the bad pilot.

[frederf 0]

I'm curious what an addon maker could do from scratch making a helicopter.

If it's just a function of BIS's units and an addon maker could make an aircraft that flies like the real thing, then the heck with the existing units and I'm happy.

I've always considered the units that ship with the game to be engine demonstration material only. If ArmA shipped with 1 tank, 1 infantry, 1 helo, 1 car, 0 campaign, and an MP button I wouldn't blink an eye buying it.

[walker 0]

Hi all

You should all have a look at Dslyecxi's Track IR video it has some interesting Helo' Flying

http://www.armedassault.info/

I think people will be pleasantly surprised at what it will be possible to do with Armed Assault's Flight model in the not too distant future.  

Kind Regards Walker

[Shashman 0]

That tailrotor failure video is mighty impressive

I've just watched BHD too and it's like, exactly the same, although perhaps it should lose more altitude faster than it does in that video, but it looks like the effect it has on the handling is spot on

[aus_twisted 0]

It makes me wonder though how the Mi17 made it into the Czech version the way it flys lol. I prefer the KA50 out of all the choppers, but the roll rate is very slow and thats with using both joystick, mouse and keyboard.

[USSRsniper 0]

It makes me wonder though how the Mi17 made it into the Czech version the way it flys lol. I prefer the KA50 out of all the choppers, but the roll rate is very slow and thats with using both joystick, mouse and keyboard.

IF KA50 ingame can't do loops, its not KA50

[feersum.endjinn 6]

Having tested different helos in ArmA last night a lot more, I think thing people have most problem with is pitch rate. If you're doing a gun run and nose starts to point down, you just can't pull up in time no matter what controller or helicopter you are using.

With small tweaks helicopters would be a lot better, right now they have very sensitive roll rates but collective and pitch axis are very unresponsive, balancing pitch/roll rates and boosting effectiveness of collective a lot would make them just perfect.

[GaX 0]

I agree

[T J 0]

Having tested different helos in ArmA last night a lot more, I think thing people have most problem with is pitch rate. If you're doing a gun run and nose starts to point down, you just can't pull up in time no matter what controller or helicopter you are using.

With small tweaks helicopters would be a lot better, right now they have very sensitive roll rates but collective and pitch axis are very unresponsive, balancing pitch/roll rates and boosting effectiveness of collective a lot would make them just perfect.

yes, did the same last night testing many different attempts and actions.

Interestingly it seemed a lot easier flying in first person view, less tempting to roll the thing sideways perhaps.

At any rate, once the downwards rush to the ground started, there seemed to be very little I could do to pull out of it.

Would be interested to see what Deadmeat could do with the models and adjusting the c.o.g. etc (Hint Hint )

TJ

[Pierrot 0]

FSX Apache Manoeuvres  .. (Right click and Save target as)

Impressing video indeed!

BTW, is there anybody who is familier with aerodynamics and flight simulators? Those ppl's aid to BIS would improve the flight model in ArmA greatly.

[dm 9]

Would be interested to see what Deadmeat could do with the models and adjusting the c.o.g. etc (Hint Hint )

I needs teh tools first!

Will definitely be tweaking the CoG and the mass on a test chopper (I'm assuming we'll be in the same cant edit ODOL p3d situation - thus the content will be un-editable until/unless someone writes a tool) to see if theres anything can be done about the "dodgy" flight.

Will be nice to see what we can do, especially now we can have multi-gunners

[xnodunitx 0]

Yeah,I agree. We would probably have to wait for O2 "2" to be released to mess with the mass distribution througout the helicopter,that and other things that current O2 cannot do..but I suppose tools will be released once its out in all current asigned regions.

As for the apache in that video...I'v seen that you have to buy that and its rather dissapointing really,I would have expected more accuracy for a flight sim,its as if they couldn't decide wether to make it A or D.

[Scrub 0]

If the rudder had a bit more effeciveness at speed, the model would be a bit better, but the translation of roll into the physics of a turn needs more or a rudder.

[Metal Heart 0]

Quote[/b] ]We would probably have to wait for O2 "2" to be released to mess with the mass distribution througout the helicopter,that and other things that current O2 cannot do.

Wrong. You can adjust mass per vertex in Oxygen Light. (but of course you can't make or edit arma models with it)

[xnodunitx 0]

Thats what I was somewhat hinting to,you can't do it and even if you could,something would get screwed up.

[T J 0]

On the subject of heli's has anybody had the bug in the blackhawks, where the miniguns just empty themselves as soon as you press fire?

While your finger is on the mouse button they act normally, but then continue on in a wierd way until all ammo is spent.

And the 'ammo' that is fired off unintentionally, doesn't hurt anything/one.

TJ

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

Ok forget what i said earlier... The flight model sucks and needs fixing.

When i test earlier it was using keyboard and mouse.  Now i've got ArmA running at home with a decent joystick im really disappointed.  

Its notchy and ugly flying helicopters at slow speed.  whether this is because of the game engine or just the setup of the helicopters i dont know but either option it still needs looking at!

[Postal69 0]

any one using a Cyborg Evo flight stick and if so.. hows it handle the choppers? gotta be easyer than keys and k/b?

[BlackAlpha 10]

I noticed that a lot of people are complaining about choppers, mainly how fast they crash. And they demand it to be fixed in the next patch. Well, there's nothing to fix. They just don't know how to fly, I guess. What I noticed is that the choppers seem more realistic in ArmA. I don't know much about choppers in real life but the way they handle now seems more realistic. I'll explain why.

When you make the chopper bank in this game, you can make it bank to a very high angle. If you are flying fast, there's no problem. You can bank the chopper until the maximum angle that the game allows. However if you go slow, there will be a problem if you bank the chopper too far. When you bank the chopper and you go very slowly, the chopper won't create enough lift to keep it steady in the air. It will make an awkward turn and it will basically fall to the ground. So the slower you go, the less you should bank it. Be VERY carefull with this when slowing down!

The same applies to putting the nose up of the chopper. If you put it up too high and you are going slowly, the chopper will go backwards. And it will go pretty damn fast in no time which will cause it to go easily out of control. Want to go backwards? Put it up slightly and don't try to go fast because you will go out of control in no time.

Another thing I noticed was that if you make a hard turn, the chopper will do weird things. So try to make the chopper turn more slowly and smoother. In OFP the game would do it for you, now you got to do it yourself.

The biggest problem is slowing down. How do you slow down effectively without doing any of the bad things I just mentioned? What I've been doing so far is putting the nose up, depending on how fast I'm going. Then I bank the chopper. Watch the angle, if you go too slow you can fall down when you bank or put the nose up. While I'm slowing down I slowly reduce the banking angle of the chopper and I slowly put the nose lower. And don't make any fast, sudden turns. The bad thing about trying to stop in one go is that you might gain hell of a lot of altitude. Especially if you were flying really fast before you tried to stop.

You can also try to stop in multiple turns. Do an attack run then do the above. It doesn't matter if you are still going fast, once you are facing the target area, do another attack run then do the above again. Just keep repeating this. You should go slower and slower with each turn. Once you hoover you should've blown up all the tanks so then you just hoover near the target area and gun down the infantry. This way you don't gain too much altitude when trying to stop because you do it over multiple turns. Just don't make too much speed when flying in a straight line. You can also cheat and put on auto hoover but I rather learn how to fly.

A note when you are flying fast. If you are flying fast the movement is more restricted. You can't make quick tight turns. So you can either go fast and do strafing runs (go around in big turns around the target area) or you can slow down, hoover and turn as fast as you want but you will be easier to hit.

Controlling the speed is now more important. In OFP you could make the chopper look to the ground and you would quickly accelerate to an insane speed. If you wanted to stop, you would do the opposite. Here it doesn't work that well anymore so the best way to control speed is to start from the beginning. Don't try to reach the max speed when you accelerate. Just stick to something like 250. When nearing the target area, slow down to 200. I always try to fly at 200 because it allows you to go fast enough to dodge stuff and it also allows you to stop pretty quick without gaining too much altitude.

Finally, don't try to fly like in Battlefield 2. That game is NOT realistic, AT ALL. You can still try it and it might work for some time but there's a pretty big chance that you will crash. And don't forget to take your time. If you try to rush, you will crash. Like with all realistic games, take your time.

My biggest problem is not flying but targetting. How the hell can you target something fast? I know you can press a button (I think it was space?) that will bring up the mouse so you can move it around a LITTLE. The mouse movement is restricted to a small part of the screen. So how can you target stuff when you are not facing it?

[dslyecxi 23]

Quote[/b] ]I don't know much about choppers in real life but the way they handle now seems more realistic.

I think this is all that needs to be read in your post. You don't know how they should handle, so you try to justify why the ArmA ones are "correct", when in fact they need some serious work before they can be considered "correct".

Try looking at some videos of actual helo acrobatics, or general helo flight, or try playing a helo simulation sometime. ArmA's helo FM is headed in the right direction, but it is NOT there yet, and to say that it is shows ignorance of how it SHOULD be.

[Fork122 0]

Couldn't this have gone in the thread already about helicopters?

My biggest problem is not flying but targetting. How the hell can you target something fast? I know you can press a button (I think it was space?) that will bring up the mouse so you can move it around a LITTLE. The mouse movement is restricted to a small part of the screen. So how can you target stuff when you are not facing it?

I don't have ArmA ( I live in the US ) but in OFP it was Numpad * to use free look. Other than that in OFP I believe you could actually hit Tab to cycle targets. If I recall correctly, I remember reading that somewhere, I never did use it successfully though...