lockdown on modding

[PeterEyres 0]

A proper server browser filter system may well solve the problem. How about when servers are put up, the game takes a 'snapshot' of the addons + missions on the server

[MP Studio 0]

I wouldn't by ArmA if there are any restrictions in Mod/Addon possibilities.

1. You don't have to download crappy addons

2. You don't have to join servers with addons/mods in MP

I always play Multiplayer without any addons, except of MFCTI perhaps. I don't have any problems to find a good server, there are at least 4 German servers regulary with 4 players at min. in the afternoon and evenings ...

The idea about a better filter system is good.

Something like that the currently needed addons are shown in a list.

[GAU-8 0]

quote from jeftec:

"What you guys are saying will make a system where people will have to pay for addons because someone in BIS will have to check the addons that get submitted to them... "

PRECISELY! but you have a different view of it compared to the way i see it.

1."ADD-ONS"- add-ons, upgrades, patches are FREE to download, and every month or two, new content is out.

2.COMPLETE MOD- these would be QUALITY mods that completely change the look/sound of the game with new complete missions,scenarios,wars these would be sold online or in box at the store...but the money mostly goes to the MODDING TEAM.

quote from HRAST:

"To force modds into this kind of slavery where they make a product but then have only very little control over it (no decision on release date plus you mention ultimatly BIS could redefine it) is grossy unfair."

1. you have a CHOICE. you can mod for ARMA, or not. there is no "slavery" ... it is NOT unfair!..they own YOUR COPY of the game, it is THIER property! we pay for only the USAGE of said game, we are "allowed" to mod unless they see fit not to. dont go into slavery issues. you can always go into another game to mod, like ....CS

2.if you get PAID for it..its not slavery, now is it?..getting paid means you are doing a service per a customers requirements. if it involves money..its not slavery. besides nobody is forced to make "ARMA-MODS" , just like nobody is FORCED to download content for me to play online. it just limits my playability with others is all.

[Journeyman 0]

LOL .... GAU-8 ...you accidentally hit the wrong button, but look what you started!  

To be honest though I agree with most of the replies here and I too definitely don't want to see any modding restrictions whatsoever. Let the community decide what it wants and I'm sure that the improved quality of ArmA is going to force addon makers raise standards anyhow.

What works for one game doesn't necessarily work for another. Also in a game like OFP/ArmA their are two main types of players: Those that are serious gamers who like things to be exact and as accurate as possible and then there are the casual gamers like myself who spend hours downloading and playing with all the latest sometimes crappy but funny addons and playing around with them in the editor! Oh the joy I had checking OFPinfo every night to see what was the latest toy that I could download for OFP ... just so that I could play around with it in the editor!  

Definitely NO to any kind of addon restrictions ... that would be suicidal, but YES to any new ways to easily categorise the quality and accuracy of addons so that we can have better knowledge of what we are installing and any issues that might arise from them.  

[GAU-8 0]

lol, ok ok ok ok ! i give up!!!!!!

its not that i am against any good or bad/crappy mods!! its just finding anyone else that has the SAME CONTENT!

do it like this-

everybody have the SAME content...from one unified source..one big ZIPFILE, the only thing "CHECKED" is that it is compatible with every other mod" that way yes,WE ALL ENJOY THE MODS! but we know every single one of us can get into ANY GAME online, wether its WWII, future aliean blast, WWI, civil war,legawar,my backyard modded neighboorhood, that way there is NO compatibility issues. yes millions of ways to play the game, but everybody has the SAME GAME.

-----------thats my ONLY beef. thats it!!!!! ----------------------

im am NOT against MODS! in any way. just got to find a way for EVERYBODY to enjoy the "SAME GAME" no matter which server "war " is currently being hosted.

im just really horrible at trying to get to things i want to say, (then i think i delete them) but not sure how im saying it!!! i was like "ooooh shiiiiiiiit...IT POSTED!?..

[Fork122 0]

everybody have the SAME content...from one unified source..one big ZIPFILE, the only thing "CHECKED" is that it is compatible with every other mod" that way yes,WE ALL ENJOY THE MODS! but we know every single one of us can get into ANY GAME online, wether its WWII, future aliean blast, WWI, civil war,legawar,my backyard modded neighboorhood, that way there is NO compatibility issues. yes millions of ways to play the game, but everybody has the SAME GAME.

The only problem with that is in OFP the game loads all the addons in the addons folder. Eventually I assume there is a limit to how many you could have loaded.

It could be different with ArmA though.

[Sniperwolf572 758]

Yay, one big zip, the horror for the 56k-ers that are still out there.

[Fork122 0]

Yay, one big zip, the horror for the 56k-ers that are still out there.

and those of us without 250 GB hard drives.

[Ukraineboy 0]

Yay, one big zip, the horror for the 56k-ers that are still out there.

No offense but I think it's time we just left the 56kers out to dry. I'm sorry, but if you want to download addons for OFP, or anything for godsakes on the internet, get ADSL or Cable already. ADSL and Cable are already the standard on the internet, and 56kers are a minority now.

[lwlooz 0]

Restriction on making mods,addons and what addons and mods to load is a very preposterous idea. And I highly doubt BIS will ever be lunatic enough to do that. Thankfully.

The situation is quite simple. Servers/MP communities play with whatever addons/mods they like.It is their server and they are paying for it. Now usually the ones that aren't UserX and his mates quickly rented a "gameserver" which also runs 5-CS servers will have a homepage where you can not only read their server rules but also find what addons they are using. If the server is even more friendly,they will provide you with OFPWatch. Yet as anyone who played MP with addons for some time can tell you there are still people that can't be bothered to A) Check that or B) Are Smart enough to press their power button on their computer,but it just ends there. So I see the problem.

A buerocratic way of BIS doing quality control,so you will only be able to play with those "hyped up" addons to me is the complete contrary of what would I call an improvement.

No, the one thing that was missing in the addon/mod creation department was documentation(For OFP as we know there was almost none) and support by BIS.And hopefully that is what they are going for with there "Modteams we support because they don't just post pictures of unfinished models and hire 20 scripters and 10 config guys and make a big PR thread before anything is really done,and then start a new mod the next weekend" initiative.(I know it has a different name ).

What I agree tho and what has been discussed numerous times is that it would be charming if BIS made it even easier for people

to find out ingame A) what Addons/Mods a server runs B) Where to get them(Maybe even with the possibility of downloading and installing them in some folder[Either selected by the programm or if you don't prefer to be spoon-fed manually]) and then C) If the addon/mod was made by "Certified mod developers!!111!!"

So in short: If some users get lost in a highly modifiable game , get them some guidance and don't limit the possibilities until noone gets lost anymore

[Journeyman 0]

No offense but I think it's time we just left the 56kers out to dry. I'm sorry, but if you want to download addons for OFP, or anything for godsakes on the internet, get ADSL or Cable already. ADSL and Cable are already the standard on the internet, and 56kers are a minority now.

No offence either Ukraineboy but which planet are you from?

There are a large number of locations around the world that cannot get anything other than 56k, and even more locations restricted to wireless only at about 14k or less! Then there are those who just can't plain afford fast Internet through circumstances not necessarily of their own control.

Get out of your little box and use your ADSL or whatever it is you have and do some real learning about the rest of the world before making any more senseless and selfish posts!  

[Sniperwolf572 758]

Yay, one big zip, the horror for the 56k-ers that are still out there.

No offense but I think it's time we just left the 56kers out to dry. I'm sorry, but if you want to download addons for OFP, or anything for godsakes on the internet, get ADSL or Cable already. ADSL and Cable are already the standard on the internet, and 56kers are a minority now.

I switched to broadband few years ago, but you have to remember that not everybody has technical capabilities to have broadband, for example, rural areas or places that don't have broadband connectivity yet.

Also, Fork makes another good point with the size of things. I think the modding scene should be left as is, maybe a bit more centralization, but definatley no bunched releases and paying for addons, I think everyones motto these days is by the community, for the community. (I think OFPEC copyrighted that sentence, but sue me, it's true. )

[Heatseeker 0]

No offense but I think it's time we just left the 56kers out to dry. ... 56kers are a minority now.

You could leave such coments out to dry instead of posting them here, im positive all the minorities would apretiate it .

Has for the addons i hope there will be less dependencies because i remember reading how BIS wanted to include a way for us to play the game with 3rd party addons, like having mod's that we can activate to replace the default units (total replacement style).

I dont know if they will pull it off but the idea is definetly interesting .

[Hrast 0]

1. you have a CHOICE. you can mod for ARMA, or not. there is no "slavery" ... it is NOT unfair!..they own YOUR COPY of the game, it is THIER property! we pay for only the USAGE of said game, we are "allowed" to mod unless they see fit not to. dont go into slavery issues. you can always go into another game to mod, like ....CS

Yes. It will be a great day for OFP community when our modders implement their right of choice and go modd for CS.

[Ukraineboy 0]

No offense but I think it's time we just left the 56kers out to dry. I'm sorry, but if you want to download addons for OFP, or anything for godsakes on the internet, get ADSL or Cable already. ADSL and Cable are already the standard on the internet, and 56kers are a minority now.

No offence either Ukraineboy but which planet are you from?

There are a large number of locations around the world that cannot get anything other than 56k, and even more locations restricted to wireless only at about 14k or less! Then there are those who just can't plain afford fast Internet through circumstances not necessarily of their own control.

Get out of your little box and use your ADSL or whatever it is you have and do some real learning about the rest of the world before making any more senseless and selfish posts!

No offense (oh btw, by posting this warning anything i say after this cannot be taken as offensive at all)

Did you even read what I said? Ofcourse I know there are people who use 56k but they are a minority in the gaming community. More people now adays are using broadband so if the only reason BIS doesnt want to release something is because of the small minority of 56kers, then that is really dumb.

[Dockery 0]

Although I agree with the "hang the 56ker's out to dry," it isn't going to happen. If I were developing a game, I sure as hell wouldn't leave them out to dry, but seeing as I am waiting for the game to release and I will then wait for many addons to release, I am going to be selfish and agree with you

[Corkey 0]

-Locking game content: No, dumb idea as addons are what has kept OFP alive for so long.

-Checking for latest version: Good way to do this would be a central web page which addon makers can list their latest versions.

-56kers: How many of the great addon makers were and still are 56k? (Seems we also had crappy HDs which blew out on us, often before a big release.)

[andersson 285]

Quote[/b] ]Let the community decide what it wants and I'm sure that the improved quality of ArmA is going to force addon makers raise standards anyhow.

The problem today with ALOT of addons, community accepted or not, is that the standard is on visual quality. With arma I believe that most addonmakers will just crank up the textures and polys...

I have opened and altered alot of addons for my personal mod and there are alot of good looking addons that have bad scripting, improper lods (if any...) and so on.. I guess much of this is because the lack of good information and guides from BIS. Most knowledge are from individual modmakers research and "trial and error" I believe(?)

So whatever addonsystem there will be BIS should make a comprehensive addonmaker manual with as much info as possible. Maybe the wiki will give us all that? I hope so... But today there is need for an indepth explanation about LOD, textures, scripts and the limitations..

Maybe alot of addonmakers know more than BIS about this, but when you read threads about addonmaking you can get different answers on the same thing from really good addonmakers. Alot of research and misunderstanding can be avoided with more info from BIS.

[dinger 1]

Quote[/b] ]I have opened and altered alot of addons for my personal mod and there are alot of good looking addons that have bad scripting, improper lods (if any...) and so on.. I guess much of this is because the lack of good information and guides from BIS. Most knowledge are from individual modmakers research and "trial and error" I believe(?)

Well, the main reason you find improper lods, bad scripting and the rest is that OFP works without it, and most people don't notice it at first blush.

BIS could do a better job, sure. But even when they reveal how things work, there are still a lot of people in the community who don't believe them.

[shinRaiden 0]

Yay, one big zip, the horror for the 56k-ers that are still out there.

No offense but I think it's time we just left the 56kers out to dry. I'm sorry, but if you want to download addons for OFP, or anything for godsakes on the internet, get ADSL or Cable already. ADSL and Cable are already the standard on the internet, and 56kers are a minority now.

There is a really simple reason (apologies to those responsible for digging up this dead horse) why that is totally wrong and counter-productive :

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Code Sample </td></tr><tr><td id="CODE">

#define TEast 0

For the want of a 1, a config was stuffed.

For the want of a config, an addon was hosed.

For the want of an addon, server bandwidth was annihilated.

For the want of bandwidth, a mod died.

For the want of a mod, the community couldn't give a *^4.

There was no need at all for that one little mistake to have doomed everything like that. Heck, it wasn't even a mistake, it was an accident. But because they forgot about dialup folks, that started a chain of decisions and sloppiness that resulted in a major debacle. Bandwidth is not the solution, it's a cop-out. Throwing bandwidth at a problem is generally an intellectually lazy excuse for not being bothered to make a tight and compact product. If you make your stuff work great on 56k, then it will be even better on broadband. If you try and justify your laziness by claiming the user has bandwidth to spare, you're the one who needs to get with the times, not the 56k people. I downloaded WGL and all the BAS stuff over dialup, but I haven't downloaded FFUR over broadband, and there's a really good reason why.

Quote[/b] ]I have opened and altered alot of addons for my personal mod and there are alot of good looking addons that have bad scripting, improper lods (if any...) and so on.. I guess much of this is because the lack of good information and guides from BIS. Most knowledge are from individual modmakers research and "trial and error" I believe(?)

Well, the main reason you find improper lods, bad scripting and the rest is that OFP works without it, and most people don't notice it at first blush. BIS could do a better job, sure. But even when they reveal how things work, there are still a lot of people in the community who don't believe them.

Or ignore them. QFT.

[znashin 0]

Going to hate myself in the morning but I agree with Ukraineboy. Making mods tiny by today's standards just to suit a minority doesn't sound right. 56k is 90s technology and nobody is designing games to run on 3Dfx cards just to suit people who can't afford up to date computers. Software should always be coded to be as compact and concise as possible but sacrificing potential quality for the sake of megs just isn't the way things should be done nowadays.

I'm not saying gear the game's engine up to the point that dial-ups are occluded, just don't let content suffer for the sake of megs.

At the end of the day dial-ups can still download large files, it just takes longer. It's a thin line though, I agree.

[dinger 1]

shinRaiden's point was somewhat obscured by his "slippery slope" example. But I'll try to make it clearer:

Engineering for a "Best-case scenario" is a recipe for disaster.

someone brought up CoC Mines and our claymores in another thread. Yes, the Claymores do cause FPS chunders. It turns out, much of that is due to overloading the audio processing (hence I do have a solution). But when we built those mines, we did a couple things to make sure they "just worked":

A) We measured FPS hit under "full game combat" conditions, and adjusted to what we figured was acceptable with some overhead for the unexpected.

B) We tested to determine the maximum number of trigger-fired mines a mission editor could place before things started to get wonky.

C) We got someone on dialup in Australia to connect to our server in Minnesota, and we tested online in those conditions.

The reason why we never released CoC_Napalm was because, at the time of development, we got a cool effect that worked, provided everyone had a ping below 200. Anyone with a ping over 200, and it looked _really bad for everybody_.

Addons have to "just work". If they don't "just work", people don't use them. If your group has one guy on a modem, or in parts of the world where they pay by the megabyte, and that guy has to download a huge addon that's not guaranteed to work, your group is not going to use that download.

It sucks to say it, but I see it time and again: each step you require the end-user to make beyond hitting start reduces your audience by a significant amount.

And if it means for a modem user, driving to a friend/business/internet cafe and spending half an hour downloading the thing from someone else's bandwidth, when that person gets home, the thing better work.

[Heatseeker 0]

This thread is lame.. What you guys are saying is basically:

"The majority of us have broadband so we dont care about the small addon you spent many months of your free time working on, you must now spend years working on a full mod just because most of us can download it and we dont care about the ones that cant..." .

Is this thread going somewhere?

[Journeyman 0]

This thread is lame.. What you guys are saying is basically:

"The majority of us have broadband so we dont care about the small addon you spent many months of your free time working on, you must now spend years working on a full mod just because most of us can download it and we dont care about the ones that cant..." .

Is this thread going somewhere?

Yea, the words 'slippery slope' was mentioned in another context!  

The thread initially was about how addons and mods could be better controlled/regulated to help with MP etc. I don't really see why we need to discuss the limitations of 56k over broadband.

According to some people here society should leave all wheelchair users out to dry! Wheelchair users are a minority and they just slow down progress of transportation and public building access and design! So no more ramps please just steps and normal doors everywhere so the rest of us can move forwards quicker without them!  

[sanctuary 19]

I don't really understand the whole thread subject, if BIS want to add some certification to show which addons are considered as optimised and bug free for Armed Assault, that's a good thing as it would prevent a lot of server/missions/compatibilty problems.

But regarding addon maker work / addon user play :

-some addon makers will continue to make huge mods

-some addon makers will continue to make small mods

-some addon makers will continue to make standalone , small or big addons

and there you will have some of high quality, some of lower quality, some optimised, some buggy etc..

And in the end you will have

-mod/addon user wanting to download

-mod addon user not wanting to download

-mod/addon user happy

-mod addon user unhappy

But in any case, whatever connection or gaming preference the mod/addon user have, there is always something he -can- download even with a limited connection/20 year old computer or the big nasa network/computer.

That's the way it was for OFP, and nothing that any mod/addon user here can say will change anything, addon makers do what they want with their work as it is their own free time they invest in doing something.

You want something to change ? that's a lot more simple than you can think : just invest your free time to do it or help people doing it, like the addon makers do themselves.

How do you think people learnt to build addons/mods ? by just trying to do something one day then improving their work.