Close Quarters Combat

[dreday 1]

Besides, anyone ever heard of spetsnaz? In the training of those guys, a large focus is on close combat, using stuff like spades, fists, knives, riflebutts and feet to beat the hell out of the enemy.

I remember reading an article by a GRU Spetsnaz officer who had served in Chechnya. He said that within a year that his unit was stationed there, they had seen extensive combat on almost daily basis. Yet not once did they ever fire a shot from a pistol, let alone use a knife.

This is very representative of the realities of modern combat. You can ask US or British forces that are preparing to deploy to Iraq about how much time they spend practicing the knife fighting skills, and then watch them laugh their asses off.

I am sorry if it crushes the boyish fantasies that some members of this forum seem to possess, but this is the reality.

Now OFP attempts to model combat from a realistic perspective. It is not a simulation, and there are plenty of things that happen in real combat that you don't see in OFP. However, I fail to see how the game would benefit from trying to simulate the combat elements that are not there in the first place.

In short, if you want to play with knifes, go play BF2. OFP/ArmA is built for serious and mature tactical gamers.

Peace,

DreDay

[sirex 0]

some things need to be in a game just so you know it's there.

knifes are one of those things. Just because you might never use it, its still nice to have on a bind in case you find you need it.

hell, its nice to have just so you can scribe your initials into the trees and stab your clan mates when waiting for a match to start.

never ignore the fun to be extracted from parts of a game that arnt used in normal play.

besides which, a fixed bayonet when creeping round a town versus other humans i can see being used, alot. - a hand held knife, maybe not.

[dreday 1]

some things need to be in a game just so you know it's there.

knifes are one of those things. Just because you might never use it, its still nice to have on a bind in case you find you need it.

hell, its nice to have just so you can scribe your initials into the trees and stab your clan mates when waiting for a match to start.

How about some appreciation for the time that BIS developers put into ArmA? Do you really think that they have nothing better to do than to spend countless hours developing a feature that would see little to no use?

I am starting to think that a few minutes that I have spent posting in this threat is a waste of my time, imagine how a developer would feel after spending a few days coding this useless addition.

Peace,

DreDay

[Garcia 0]

Besides, anyone ever heard of spetsnaz? In the training of those guys, a large focus is on close combat, using stuff like spades, fists, knives, riflebutts and feet to beat the hell out of the enemy.

I remember reading an article by a GRU Spetsnaz officer who had served in Chechnya.  He said that within a year that his unit was stationed there, they had seen extensive combat on almost daily basis.  Yet not once did they ever fire a shot from a pistol, let alone use a knife.

This is very representative of the realities of modern combat.  You can ask US or British forces that are preparing to deploy to Iraq about how much time they spend practicing the knife fighting skills, and then watch them laugh their asses off.

I am sorry if it crushes the boyish fantasies that some members of this forum seem to possess, but this is the reality.

Now OFP attempts to model combat from a realistic perspective.  It is not a simulation, and there are plenty of things that happen in real combat that you don't see in OFP.  However, I fail to see how the game would benefit from trying to simulate the combat elements that are not there in the first place.

In short, if you want to play with knifes, go play BF2.  OFP/ArmA is built for serious and mature tactical gamers.

Peace,

DreDay

I don't really care if BIS would add knife and/or other close combat abilities to the game, but even though you mean these are useless IRL, close combat is a very important part of training for military personel. Soldiers may not come in a close combat situation too often in modern wars, but you seem to have been under a rock for the past 5 years. First of all, close combat ability would be useful if i.e is in a situation where you run out of ammo. Second, and more importantly, have you forgot all the addons for OFP and all the situations in OFP. In a lot of missions close combat ability would be useful, and certain addons/MODs would also find it to be useful. One good example would be vietnam era addons. Quite many soldiers during the vietnam war had great use of their close combat skills. I even saw a interview with a US marine who had beaten a vietcong to death with his helmet. If you really think ArmA will be all about modern warfare, you really should rethink...

[dreday 1]

I don't really care if BIS would add knife and/or other close combat abilities to the game, but even though you mean these are useless IRL, close combat is a very important part of training for military personel. Soldiers may not come in a close combat situation too often in modern wars, but you seem to have been under a rock for the past 5 years. First of all, close combat ability would be useful if i.e is in a situation where you run out of ammo. Second, and more importantly, have you forgot all the addons for OFP and all the situations in OFP. In a lot of missions close combat ability would be useful, and certain addons/MODs would also find it to be useful. One good example would be vietnam era addons. Quite many soldiers during the vietnam war had great use of their close combat skills. I even saw a interview with a US marine who had beaten a vietcong to death with his helmet. If you really think ArmA will be all about modern warfare, you really should rethink...

First of all I will be the first one to admit that if ArmA was set in the WWII era, or earlier, then a knife handling feature would be useful.  However ArmA is set in the present day, and as such, has to reflect the reality of modern combat.  I would much rather have BIS work on implementing thermal imaging or weapon mounted night vision (which plays an important role on a modern battlefield), than the archaic knife fighting.

As for your comments on "Close Combat" they are all over the place.  I don't see why you would think that I've been living under the rock for the past 5 years.  Are you saying that there has been a recent revival of knife combat?  In fact, close quarters battle training is extremely important for modern soldiers.  However, this training includes room-clearing clearing drills and such, not knife/bayonet fighting.  I am sure that you can find singular cases of soldiers fighting their enemies with helmets, shovels, or even their teeth.  It's just that they are statistically irrelevant, as they happen very, very rarely.

Peace,

DreDay

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

I don't really care if BIS would add knife and/or other close combat abilities to the game, but even though you mean these are useless IRL, close combat is a very important part of training for military personel. Soldiers may not come in a close combat situation too often in modern wars, but you seem to have been under a rock for the past 5 years. First of all, close combat ability would be useful if i.e is in a situation where you run out of ammo. Second, and more importantly, have you forgot all the addons for OFP and all the situations in OFP. In a lot of missions close combat ability would be useful, and certain addons/MODs would also find it to be useful. One good example would be vietnam era addons. Quite many soldiers during the vietnam war had great use of their close combat skills. I even saw a interview with a US marine who had beaten a vietcong to death with his helmet. If you really think ArmA will be all about modern warfare, you really should rethink...

First of all I will be the first one to admit that if ArmA was set in the WWII era, or earlier, then a knife handling feature would be useful. However ArmA is set in the present day, and as such, has to reflect the reality of modern combat. I would much rather have BIS work on implementing thermal imaging or weapon mounted night vision (which plays an important role on a modern battlefield), than the archaic knife fighting.

As for your comments on "Close Combat" they are all over the place. I don't see why you would think that I've been living under the rock for the past 5 years. Are you saying that there has been a recent revival of knife combat? In fact, close quarters battle training is extremely important for modern soldiers. However, this training includes room-clearing clearing drills and such, not knife/bayonet fighting. I am sure that you can find singular cases of soldiers fighting their enemies with helmets, shovels, or even their teeth. It's just that they are statistically irrelevant, as they happen very, very rarely.

Peace,

DreDay

As stated earlier - not long ago the brittish used bayonets in Iraq.

On the other hand... When I play OFP, I prefer picking off the targets on distance, trying to secure most of a city before entering it. Knives wouldn't add much to the gameplay for me... But it would probably for others. If I run out of ammo, I use my pistol - if I dont have any - I hide/run

[sirex 0]

well, no matter how you cut it, at some point you'll find yourself standing behind a group of players, wishing you had something other than the "please turn around and blow my head off as soon as i fire" option.

i guess its as per knifes in real life, its better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.

edit: besides which, i predict a knife kill in ArmA is going to be even funnier than a knife kill in bf2. if arma is meant to be approaching a wider audience, it does need to be fun :-)

[max power 21]

Unlike movies like to have it, a silencer won't completely eliminate the sound of firing. It's quite silent if you use something like .22lr, but a silenced M4A1 ain't all that zupzupzup crap like in Counter-Strike.

Besides, anyone ever heard of spetsnaz? In the training of those guys, a large focus is on close combat, using stuff like spades, fists, knives, riflebutts and feet to beat the hell out of the enemy. And the Finnish Defence Forces' Sotilaan Käsikirja (Soldier's Handbook) instructs one to use a rifle butt or a spade to hit the opponent's teeth in when clearing trenches etc.

We were also instructed to use riflebutts in CQB - not that any of us wanted to use it in real-life.

Especially after the danish army is using the Canadian M16 - I fear it will just break on impact

The British SAS has no such worry. Actually, I don't know. Maybe the Diemaco was chosen for it's shooting and maintenance characteristics rather than its club-like characteristics. Hehe.

[dreday 1]

As stated earlier - not long ago the brittish used bayonets in Iraq.

No they didn't. This article is very misleading. What they did was a classic infantry assault. Yes they happened to have their bayonets attached, but the actual fighting was done with rifles and grenades. That is not what I think of when I hear of a "bayonet charge".

I agree with your other points though.

Peace,

DreDay

[figjam 0]

A bayonet charge doesn't mean you actually use the bayonet. (To kill someone with anyway.)

If a rifle section, or even platoon fixes bayonets and charges the enemy, shouting - it has a demoralising effect on the enemy. Doing so may cause the enemy to break and run or to surrender.

Actually going in and fighting the enemy with bayonets hasn't occured in a long time (not to my knowledge anyway), though my main area is Australian military history - from the Second Boer War to the Viet Nam war.

[scary 0]

As stated earlier - not long ago the brittish used bayonets in Iraq.

No they didn't.  This article is very misleading.  What they did was a classic infantry assault.  Yes they happened to have their bayonets attached, but the actual fighting was done with rifles and grenades.  That is not what I think of when I hear of a "bayonet charge".

Yes they did, although it wasn't actually the Argylls that performed the bayonet charge but the PWRR.

They followed the standard British military practice of using bayonets to finish clearing a trench.

A bayonet charge doesn't mean you actually use the bayonet. (To kill someone with anyway.)

If a rifle section, or even platoon fixes bayonets and charges the enemy, shouting - it has a demoralising effect on the enemy. Doing so may cause the enemy to break and run or to surrender.

This is very true. The psychological effect is one of the reasons the British have such high regard for bayonet use.

I think it would be difficult to incorporate realistically that effect in the game though.

Quote[/b] ]Actually going in and fighting the enemy with bayonets hasn't occured in a long time (not to my knowledge anyway), though my main area is Australian military history - from the Second Boer War to the Viet Nam war.

In one battle in the Falklands a quarter of Argentinian killed were on the end of a bayonet.

Usual British practice is to fix bayonets when within grenade throwing range, many Americans that have trained with British troops have adopted the same or similar practice.

[Garcia 0]

The living under a rock was refering to the fact that you don't seem to care about the fact that OFP have been, and ArmA probably will be, living on the wide selection of addons. Therefor BIS should not only focus on implementing things that's useful in modern combat, but also implement, or at least make it possible to script, things that no longer plays a vital part in modern combat, but did play a vital part in combat earlier.

[benreeper 0]

Garcia you hit the nail on the head.

--Ben

[dreday 1]

The living under a rock was refering to the fact that you don't seem to care about the fact that OFP have been, and ArmA probably will be, living on the wide selection of addons. Therefor BIS should not only focus on implementing things that's useful in modern combat, but also implement, or at least make it possible to script, things that no longer plays a vital part in modern combat, but did play a vital part in combat earlier.

I would agree with that if BIS had the ulimited resources and time.  Alas, that's not the case and I would rather have BIS concentrate on developing the features that support the game's time frame.  Otherwise, why not include bows and arrows, what about spears, or what about laser guns?

Like I said before, you have to respect the develpers' time...

Peace,

DreDay

[benreeper 0]

Bows and arrows, spears and laser guns can already be made with the current engine as they are they are all projectile weapons.

--Ben

[dreday 1]

Bows and arrows, spears and laser guns can already be made with the current engine as they are they are all projectile weapons.

--Ben

The issue here is with animations (and cool looking effects for lasers), not with the projectile type. If there were animations and effects for knifes, then you could simply define them as projectiles with a range of 1 meter. So by using your logic, knifes can also be made with a current engine.

BTW, laser guns don't fire projectiles.

Peace,

DreDay

[dreday 1]

As stated earlier - not long ago the brittish used bayonets in Iraq.

No they didn't.  This article is very misleading.  What they did was a classic infantry assault.  Yes they happened to have their bayonets attached, but the actual fighting was done with rifles and grenades.  That is not what I think of when I hear of a "bayonet charge".

Yes they did, although it wasn't actually the Argylls that performed the bayonet charge but the PWRR.

They followed the standard British military practice of using bayonets to finish clearing a trench.

Scary,

Do you have access to the AARs for that fight? I am asking because I have heard a lot of discussion of it and very little actual informatioon. Most of the discussion that I have heard seemed to indicate that it was a standard infanty assault.

Peace,

DreDay

[Commando84 0]

i think the dude was talking about mods like civil war and napoleon mod and stuff

and hey zombie mods could be helped out if close range combat was available

Like knocking down zombies with a golf club or chainsaw or machete or yeah you get the point right. And them 1800-1900 type mods would seriously love a more built in systems for close combat with knfes, bayonettes and stuff. I really don't think night vision on weapons is that dead important when you got night vision googles that works just fine in ofp.

though thermal googles would be cool but it would also be a bit to easy i think to find the enemies then

[Kode 0]

Bayonets are a welcome addition to the everyday life of a soldier, cutting ropes, wasting time playing with it, preparing food, a knife is very usefull(espcially when you need to survive, killing and unskinning rabits and other animals.

And yes, if you're out of ammo, it can be used aswell (that is if you cannot pick up another gun or ammo...which normally are everywhere after a while... )

Anyway, I don't see any of those features being added to the game, so it's not worth the programming time, I prefer they release the game a couple of houres/days/weeks earlier

[Garcia 0]

Bows and arrows, spears and laser guns can already be made with the current engine as they are they are all projectile weapons.

--Ben

The issue here is with animations (and cool looking effects for lasers), not with the projectile type.  If there were animations and effects for knifes, then  you could simply define them as projectiles with a range of 1 meter.  So by using your logic, knifes can also be made with a current engine.

BTW, laser guns don't fire projectiles.

Peace,

DreDay

Animation isn't a problem nowdays either. You have fully animated animals and you have animation for other things. Effects for laser could easily be made, and you could probably fake the laser beam by using a modified version of tracers. Using knifes as projectiles wouldn't work however, as you would "run out of ammo" for the knife, and then it wouldn't be useable anymore. So using his logics will make all the other weapons possible, but not knifes.

[dreday 1]

Animation isn't a problem nowdays either. You have fully animated animals and you have animation for other things. Effects for laser could easily be made, and you could probably fake the laser beam by using a modified version of tracers. Using knifes as projectiles wouldn't work however, as you would "run out of ammo" for the knife, and then it wouldn't be useable anymore. So using his logics will make all the other weapons possible, but not knifes.

This is geting rediculous. I really get an impression that you are arguing just for the point of arguing. Give a "knife" a clip with 10000 rounds, and that comes pretty close to unlimited.

That's a moot point though, it is extremely difficult to mod realistic knifes, bows, or spears with the current engine.You know why? Because the developers had spent their valuble time making a game about a modern combat, not WWII and not 18th century. It would be cool if those features were there, but they are simply not worth the development time. If you don't belive me, you are welcome to try; don't forget to get back to me in a couple of years when you actually have something.

Now, if BIS was to release additional modules for different time periods at a later time; I would be all for it. I just don't think that these features are worth taking away the development time when there are so many modern combat features that have yet to be implemented.

Peace,

DreDay

[dreday 1]

i think the dude was talking about mods like civil war and napoleon mod and stuff

and hey zombie mods could be helped out if close range combat was available

Like knocking down zombies with a golf club or chainsaw or machete or yeah you get the point right. And them 1800-1900 type mods would seriously love a more built in systems for close combat with knfes, bayonettes and stuff. I really don't think night vision on weapons is that dead important when you got night vision googles that works just fine in ofp.

though thermal googles would be cool but it would also be a bit to easy i think to find the enemies then

Commando84,

I know that the night vision googles work fine. That's the whole point. Night vision scopes are more limiting than the NVGs, hence the difference in game style when playing with them. Besides, most armies do not have large quantaties of NVGs and the night vision sights are much more common.

Thermal googles are still largely at the experimental stage, although they will probaly become operational in the near future. I was actually talking about the thermal sights on vehicles. For that matter, you can take a look at the "Modern Tank Combat" thread and see a whole bunch of features that would effect the gameplay much more than the addition of knifes.

Peace,

DreDay

[j w 0]

Well, h-t-h combat is not just a dream, it can be done. The question is, can the engine be changed so that h-t-h and CQB is better in ArmA?

Probably not.

But NextGen? Possibly. But do we need it?

No, as someone said before, OFP and followers is about large battles in open field, and not about being 5 meters from your opponent.

But if they do add in hth, they must add in a sneaky-mode, you'll walk slow, but barely make a sound.

And it is possible to have both weapon and hth, as seen in;

Splinter Cell games

The Matrix games (and there also with alot of different random anims)

True Crime (dunno about NY, but I think you can throw punches there too)

So, it's not impossible, but my opinion is that this thread should be in NextGen - Suggestions-forum.

Not in ArmA.

[Chunder 0]

I tell you what is a dream, getting grueling knife simulated combat through western ratings system so you can actually sell it is a dream.

get a grip.

It means that anyone that can't get the game through legal means will opt to get it anyway. Which are the people that make up a substancial proportion of the market - the teenagers.

I don't care about knife combat. To get it through the censors it will have to be made 'unrealistic' and then you will have the unrealistic moaners in here.

[j w 0]

As stated before,

knifes are not in anyway unrealistic.

They probably got that mark since it's CS-kiddies weapon of choice, and they brag of how they cut you up with ease, bla bla bla, yapp yapp yapp.

You use knifes in the army, maybe it's for cutting holes trough a fence to get trough, cutting up strings in pieces when setting a camp up, and sometimes, even in battle.

So knifes would make the game more realistic than it is today, so I see why not?

Also, if good implementing of knifes, good RPG-missions (cop vs robbers) could be made, there a civvie easily can get their hands on a knife, and still do (almost) as much dammage as with any gun.

So, I say why not?

But not for ArmA, unless it already has been implemented.