PC Discussion Thread - All PC related in here.

[JdB 151]

Sound Blaster® Audigy™ 4, 7.1 surround, costs around €50 (bulk, just the card itself) or €75 (retail, comes with some software and a remote control) here in Holland.

[crashdome 1]

I will try and reiterate some points that people feel they need to bash MS for:

1) Money-orientated/Proprietary

True, but then so is Sony, Nintendo, Apple, etc.. etc..

Even Apple has it's own proprietary graphic display system.

However, Linux fanboys bash MS and hardly ever bash Macs and vice versa. Yet they all have their commonalities.

2) DirectX10 come built-in and OpenGL support has been reduced

Correct. Although if I were a company developing my own system, I wouldn't want to pay people to support a system I am not using anyways. OpenGL has been instituted into Windows via third-parties forever. It will continue to be. I don't believe MS will have a hand in preventing it. I've seen how they opened up on alot of their products (even giving away free versions of Visual Studio) Why? "because they want to saturate the market and prevent other alternatives from being used" ....WRONG!! because all the open-source kiddies blamed them for not giving away anything for free. "MS wants us to pay for everything!!" Talk about double-standards....

3) Vista is glorified XP and hogs memory

False and False

Having seen developments and worked with it on a programming level it is far FAR beyond Windows XP. It does hog memory.. sort of...but in a good way...

Read my BLOG

There are alot of features that maybe the average person HERE doesn't use/need.. but then again this wasn't written by MS specifically with you and only you in mind. You don't need it.. fine don't use it... but don't bash it because it "isn't for you".

4) I am a Windows Fanboy that works to defend MS every chance I get..

False

Yes I use alot of MS products and I hate alot of them too.. I also have alot of complaints.. but I hate to be over-shadowed by MS hating ninnies that rely on rumors and purposefully bash MS every chance they get (especially the ones that are Linux users - who purposefully see it as a way to promote Linux) ..Look.. I like Linux..and I also hate things about it.  It is a great tool, but as with all tools there are general tools and specific tools. In order to compete with Windows, we would need a dedicated company that it's only goal was to develop a Linux flavor to compete "Directly" with MS. .. and AFAIK that hasn't happened effectively yet.

[CsonkaPityu 0]

Quote[/b] ]There are alot of features that maybe the average person HERE doesn't use/need.. but then again this wasn't written by MS specifically with you and only you in mind. You don't need it.. fine don't use it... but don't bash it because it "isn't for you".

Hold your horses...

This is the problem with microsoft. You can't just up and 'not use Windows Vista'. I'd gladly not use Vista if there would be an alternative that could run games. I was kind of thinking i will switch to the PS3 for my gaming... keep the pc for important stuff, maybe i'll even save cash, because no matter how expensive that console is, it is still cheaper then a strong PC.

But i'll still have to learn how that resourcehog Vista works, probably cause a lot of computers will have it.

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

Quote[/b] ]There are alot of features that maybe the average person HERE doesn't use/need.. but then again this wasn't written by MS specifically with you and only you in mind. You don't need it.. fine don't use it... but don't bash it because it "isn't for you".

Hold your horses...

This is the problem with microsoft. You can't just up and 'not use Windows Vista'. I'd gladly not use Vista if there would be an alternative that could run games. I was kind of thinking i will switch to the PS3 for my gaming... keep the pc for important stuff, maybe i'll even save cash, because no matter how expensive that console is, it is still cheaper then a strong PC.

But i'll still have to learn how that resourcehog Vista works, probably cause a lot of computers will have it.

It is gonna take a while until we see directx10 exclusives, and therefor most games (also new ones) will run fine on windowsxp.

If you don't like windows at all, I suggest you start playing Pong

I am no MS fanboy, but I use the software I find best and easiest to use.

I use firefox as a browser, because I like this browser. I use Office instead of openoffice, simply because I find Openoffice too slow and its simply unstable. For various other reason, I do use WinEdit as I write using Latex and CVS system.

I use UNIX at my university, and is pretty experienced with it... And still, I will be the first to say that Windows is the only operating system that fullfills most of my needs. Not because it's MS, or because they have alot of money. Simply because it gives the flexitivity I need and still gives me a nice user interface that my eyes want.

Other companies had their chance, and hopefully some new ones will get their chances in the new future. Until then, Microsoft;

Carpe Diem!

[benreeper 0]

The main problem with the anti-MS crowd is that they are disenegenuious. They don't want to debate ,they just want to scream and yell. This can be illustrated in the fact that they will use any opportunity to bash them. They make it seem like everything MS company has done, and is doing, to increase their market share is an MS exclusive and that these aren't pursuits of everyone else, including Macintosh and Sony. I've used all OSs and comps and they are all the same. I did music on Macs for years and bought a PC for games. I did not, and do not, have any more problems on the PC than I do/did on the Mac.

OSs should be treated on this boeard in the same vein as politics and religion: strictly off topic as it incites passion and not reason.

The bottom line is that a forum reader should not have to read diatribe in an area of the forum where diatribe should not exit.

--Ben

[seany1212 0]

geezzz, i only wanted to ask if ArmA was dx9 or dx10, didnt want to start a war over microsoft, i personally like microsoft and have a few of there products such as XP and windows mobile, i now have the answer to my original question and could i ask that a moderator seal this post as i think it is arguements over nothing.

[crashdome 1]

Quote[/b] ]There are alot of features that maybe the average person HERE doesn't use/need.. but then again this wasn't written by MS specifically with you and only you in mind. You don't need it.. fine don't use it... but don't bash it because it "isn't for you".

Hold your horses...

This is the problem with microsoft. You can't just up and 'not use Windows Vista'. I'd gladly not use Vista if there would be an alternative that could run games. I was kind of thinking i will switch to the PS3 for my gaming... keep the pc for important stuff, maybe i'll even save cash, because no matter how expensive that console is, it is still cheaper then a strong PC.

But i'll still have to learn how that resourcehog Vista works, probably cause a lot of computers will have it.

Well, to be honest you can...

Buy a Mac, buy a PS3, buy a Nintendo DS/Game Cube,... they all run "games".

You will be faced with the same "Having to upgrade" as you would with any Microsoft product. PS3 exclusive games are no different than "DirectX10 Only" games. I have a PS1 and cannot play PS2 or the new PS3 games..

I do not buy a PS2 or PS3 because that is truly my choice.

...and I am saying this as encouragement that if you choose to buy something (like a Mac) there will be games for it.

If your favorite developer does not offer the alternative, you cannot blame Microsoft.

From what I understand also.. there are Linux software to emulate and run Windows games on Linux (possibly even perform better). By giving into DirectX10 and Windows Vista you are doing nothing more than if you gave into buying a Mac, a PS3, etc.. or spending time to learn to use Linux as an alternative. All will require time or money. By asking that game developers perpetually develop for old technology (DirectX9 etc..) simply to prevent the need for upgrading is going against natural market forces. The reason why we have DX10 is because of the desire of gamers for better graphics/technology.

[wamingo 1]

In order to compete with Windows, we would need a dedicated company that it's only goal was to develop a Linux flavor to compete "Directly" with MS. .. and AFAIK that hasn't happened effectively yet.

But don't you ever wonder why that is?

It's simply not possible.

You could release an OS that could do Everything that windows can, look and feel better than windows, be more powerful than windows, using open standards and completely cross-platform friendly, with millions of dollars in advertisement, be free to top it off, and it still wouldn't receive anywhere near global acceptance... A glance at best.

Why? Because we're stuck.

Stuck on "good enough".

Stuck on fear of re-education.

Stuck on the whole industry being in the pockets of microsoft and thus consumers along with them.

And consumers are suffering because of it.

(Although the very same stuckness may hurt microsoft's future products as well.)

The difference between MS and the rest of the indeed also locked platforms like Apple, Sony etc, is market share. No competition, monopoly, free reign = no price or quality competition = consumers suffer.

Don't get me wrong though... 2 or more equal and individually locked platforms, could hurt consumers even more.

Having to own a playstation AND an xbox AND a nintendo is not exactly fun...

Asking companies to use open standards is probably difficult - but this is never the less what consumers would like. You can't blame people for wanting this. Consumers always have a right to want more and consequently a right to complain to their hearts content. I think you should try to appreciate this fact instead of refuting it, because if anything, it's actually healthy for the development of our tools.

eh, I'm just repeating myself...

If your favorite developer does not offer the alternative, you cannot blame Microsoft.

Legally, you mean?

[crashdome 1]

Sounds like self-defeatism to me.

If that were true, we'd still be playing games only on Nintendos and Commodore 64s/Amigas. Pepsi would have NEVER rivaled Coca-Cola and 3DFX would be king. I would still be calling people on my land-line instead of just owning a cell-phone (from one of the zillion of providers).

Sounds to me more like you believe that 1 company is bad; 2 companies are equally bad; and any more than that is somehow impossible???

Also, you mention Apple and then you mention MS with "no competition".

I never said anyone didn't have the right to complain. In fact all I've been trying to say is you have better than that... the right to choose.

Owning 3 consoles to play all games certainly is not fun but it sounds like you want ALL games to play on ALL systems equally. That certainly would be a gaming utopia but you fail to realize that having that would be basically like if MS ruled and no one else existed. I believe in open standards but if everything were that open that everything was equally the same than companies would make zero profit and we'd be "stuck" with nothing because no one in their right mind would sell in a market like that.

Quote[/b] ]Legally, you mean?

Yes, and morally, ethically, etc.. etc..

Can I sue you for making me spend so much time explaining the concept of choice?

[CsonkaPityu 0]

Quote[/b] ]Buy a Mac, buy a PS3, buy a Nintendo DS/Game Cube,... they all run "games".

You will be faced with the same "Having to upgrade" as you would with any Microsoft product.

Uhhh no. No i wouldn't be faced with anything but having to buy the next one 5 years after. Even a 600$ console is cheaper then a gaming PC.

"Mac"? You think a mac is good for playing games (or anything)? Listen my point was that microsoft has this iron grip an all things PC gaming, so my point was that if i don't want to have Vista i'll have to give up on playing games on the computer - which means i have a lot less hardware to buy and can afford a console easily.

Eitherway, the OP is right... he just asked a question about arma supporting DX10 and it turned into somekind of weirdo anti-microsoft thread.

[stegman 3]

Just a min.  This isn't a very Armed Assault related topic.  Shouldn't this be in "Off Topic"?

[bitkari 0]

Graphics means attention and cash, which DX10 will give plenty of. So DX10 will widely be used for sure.

This is the core problem, though.

In PC gaming there is a never-ending drive for better graphics. I like great visuals as much as the next person, but when they become the be-all and end-all of gaming, then that is a problem.

Many PC games require some sort of graphical edge to guarantee a hardcore fanbase, and later popular appeal. This technological arms race does not mean that we're getting better games, indeed I believe that the quality of PC gaming is in general going downhill.

Operation Flashpoint, while certainly very competent graphically was never at the cutting edge of visual whizz-bang, but it didn't need to be as the game itself was always what sold it.

Likewise with Armed Assault, the game, as we here know is likely to be fantastic, but the sheer scope of the game is going to mean that the graphical veneer is likely to lack the punch of BF2142, Crysis and the like.

Now when it comes to selling the game, Joe Gamer isn't going to see the massive playing fields, the high level of realism, and the overall wonderful game; they're just going to see that AA isn't quite as shiny as 'shooter X', and pick that up instead.

What we really need is to focus on just making great games using the technology of the day, and not be in such a rush to outdo each other by using €800 graphics cards to push another cycle of hardware churn through D3D one-upmanship.

[wamingo 1]

So what if it's self defeat? It's irrelevant!

Are you aware that each time you need to develop for a different platform the development costs soars?

Are you aware that, in great turn due to the separation of standards and thus consumers, a vast majority of all games made, loose money? And that the industry relies entirely on their "blockbuster" games/apps to fund their next/future projects?

And are you aware that windows, compared to linux, is about as stable as charles manson?

Of course you are.

The real question is, are you aware that, because of all this, consumers and industry are hanging onto sanity by the atoms on the tips of their fingernails, and that you're defending the very rights that essentially destroys everyone's common interest's?

ah, nevermind...

I will now silently await the day windows passes on organically. or when governments have picked it apart. whichever comes first.

ps. I've never seriously used linux for a day in my life - but I'd like to.

[benreeper 0]

Back to DirectX10... If Game2 comes out as far off as I think it will be, It will most certainly be DX10. In less than a year after Vista's release, all pc manufactures will come with Vista installed.

Also, I've never spent more than $600 on a gaming pc and I get a new one every three years. I usually give the old one to my son but this year I'm buying 2 for about a grand. Pretty inexpensive hobby if you ask me.

--Ben

[nubbin77 0]

Quote[/b] ]And are you aware that windows, compared to linux, is about as stable as charles manson?

Of course you are.

ps. I've never seriously used linux for a day in my life - but I'd like to.

So I guess your statement of fact is based on your vast expertise / experience...Or perhaps you just adopted the cool opinion that someone else on the internet told you to have.

[Placebo 28]

This is no longer in any way related to ArmA, and as all offtopic PC threads belong in the pinned PC thread in OT it doesn't belong separately in OT, I will merge into the OT PC thread shortly.

[shadow 6]

So, basicly, I though that what we need is a medium-good computer with a good DVD-player/burner, a big HD and a TV-card, so here's the config of it:

MoBo: Intel s775 Asus, P5LD2 SE/C  - any good?

CPU: Intel Pentium D 930 3,0ghz 800/2x2m Dual Core Socket 775

DDR: Kingston DDR2 1024MB 533MHz CL4 (Kit of 2)

HD: Western Digital 320GB SATA II Caviar SE (7200rpm / 16MB Cache / SATA II)

TV-Card: Hauppauge TV-Card WinTV Nova T 500 - Comes with a remote (atleast on the pic )

CD/DVD: Samsung Intern IDE DVD±RW 16x - Svart (Dual Layer / Lightscribe) (Bulk)

GFX: Asus Radeon X1300le 128MB (EAX1300/TD/128M) - TV-Ut / DVi (PCI-E) - Not meant for a gamingcomp, so this'll do for now

All this in a Silverstone HTPC LC-13 Aluminum (black) with a Zalman PowerSupply (PSU) 360W 360B-APS to power it all.

Lands on approx 900euro, is it worth it?

And, will I be able to plug it in with the new TV (it's a Samsung)

Regards

JW

I'm guessing you're going to have this pc in the livingroom so you might want to consider one of the new Conroes. They run alot cooler than the terrible baking-oven, Pentium D that is.

Remember; cool pc means silent pc.

You might want to add Windows MCE to that shoppinglist.

A WD HD is alot noisier than a Seagate (hint-hint).

The TV-tuner card you want is Hauppauge WinTV PVR-500-MCE. This card is "cheap" because its designed for Windows MCE and therefor doesnt come with alot of software you dont need. Also, the PVR-500 has 2 tv-tuners so you can record one channel while watching another.

I dont know much about the X1300, but if this is a tv-pc I'd got with a fanless GF7600GS. Its cheap, good performance and no added noise.

The 360W Power supply is more than enough. If you manage to overload it then something is wrong with one of the components. As long as its a quality brand such as the brand you have chosen then you have nothing to worry about.

Quote[/b] ]I overclock everything I can, and my ole 430W PSU went up in smoke because of it. However, now I use a nice ole 750W TTake one, which works a charm.

This arguement say nothing really.

Good for you that a 750W PS serves your purpose. Personally I stick to a 500W for a E6700, GF7950GX2 and 3x250GB HDs.

[JdB 151]

So I guess your statement of fact is based on your vast expertise / experience...Or perhaps you just adopted the cool opinion that someone else on the internet told you to have.

Well I do use it, and it is better and more stable. I'm pretty experienced with Windows (certified), but however much more stable Win XP is over Win 2000, it is no where near as stable as most properly installed Linux distributions.

I started a while back as a complete Linux n00b with Kubuntu, and I have not yet managed to seriously mess up my install (Kubuntu does not have a "root" account that you can easily access except for "sudo" and "su" commands in the terminal). For everyday use it is great, such as making schoolreports and office tasks, listening to music and watching movies, browsing the internet and more.

Furthermore I do not even have a virusscanner installed as smart userprivilages combined with a very low number of existing virusses makes Linux alot safer. If a serious exploit is found it usually takes a matter of days to come up with a solution, where as Microsoft doesn't bother to come up with a patch even 3 months after being swamped with complaints.

Which brings me to my biggest Microsoft related annoyance: They force gamers to buy Vista as it is a requirement to DX10. This is a pure show of force and intimidation, that organisations like the mafia would be proud of. Probably the European Union will hand out a fine of somewhere around $500.000.000 and Microsoft will laugh for they make that amount in 3 months or less off the new extortion called "Vista".

Sadly for me 3DS Max and Photoshop CS2 + games are not fully supported yet by Linux, otherwise I would have been typing this post from Kubuntu instead of XP.

Also Linux has alot of free distributions, which save you anywhere from $150 to $500 on a new pc.

[shadow 6]

Which brings me to my biggest Microsoft related annoyance: They force gamers to buy Vista as it is a requirement to DX10.

Unless MS is forcing you to buy games that require DX10 to run I dont see how MS is forcing anything upon you.

Should we stay in the past and try to make the best out of what we have or should we try and step forward and make something entirely new that potentially will be better overall?

I think Winxp is a better product than Win2000 and I think Win2000 is a better product than NT4. My gutt-feeling tells me that Vista will be a better product than Winxp.

I dont see the problem why Vista will eventually be a minimum requirement for games one day. Most of todays games already are'nt supported on the Win9x-platform. I dont hear alot of crying there.

Its funny that 90% of the MS-related complaints I hear are from people praising Linux. And its funny that if Linux really is so wonderful that it still only used in servers in any significant numbers and not on clients.

I'm not trying to start a pissing-contest between Windows and Linux. I'm just trying to understand how Linux users think.

[j w 0]

Shadow: Thanks for feedback, but for a good mediacomputer, what Conroe should I get?

BTW; My family don't have all the money in the world, especially not after getting the plasma

Oh, and you say, is the TV-card any good? I got lost there

JW

[shadow 6]

for a good mediacomputer, what Conroe should I get?

BTW; My family don't have all the money in the world, especially not after getting the plasma

Oh, and you say, is the TV-card any good? I got lost there

JW

A E6400 should do nicely. No point in going any higher unless gaming is the primary usage.

...

Yes, the PVR-500-MCE is the best card around unless you want to spend 3x the amount on some "uber" card. Its also one of the few cards in that price-range with two tv-tuners. That means you can record something on one channel and at the same time watching something on another channel or watch two channels at once (picture in picture).

Btw make sure the card is the MCE-version (MediaCenter Edition). The MCE-card is a little cheaper because it doesnt come with any tv-software because you use MediaCenter's own built-in SW, and yes, it comes with a MediCenter-compatible remote.

In short: you cant go wrong with the PVR-500-MCE (damn! sounds like I'm at work, trying to sell you something )

I dont own the card myself, but I've installed and configured them for many customers at work. Its all great feedback.

Hauppauge PVR-500 MCE product page

[JdB 151]

Quote[/b] ]Unless MS is forcing you to buy games that require DX10 to run I dont see how MS is forcing anything upon you.

Don't know if you've noticed, but most games require DX, and any gamedeveloper with enough money will always go for the most advanced features possible = DX10.

So no Vista = running a maximum of 10% of all new games.

Quote[/b] ]And its funny that if Linux really is so wonderful that it still only used in servers in any significant numbers and not on clients.

Like someone else mentioned, most people have an attitude of "it manages to run my game or burn my DVD so why change". Most people would rather go with something they know then something that is potentially better. Also companies don't switch that easily as they would have to send a whole lot of users to courses to get them used to using a different user interface.

One example was when I was running a network install of a departement-floor full of pc's that had Win 2000 Pro on them and where due for replacement (new pc's with XP). Some users asked if they couldn't keep their Win 2000 pc because they didn't want to learn something new as it would affect productivity. When you change XP back to the Classic look there is hardly any noticable difference if you are not an administrator. Still it's the thought of having your old, trusted partner being replaced with some rookie .

And going from Win 2000 to XP is only a minor change...XP to Linux is harder if you're doing anything involving the terminal.

[j w 0]

for a good mediacomputer, what Conroe should I get?

BTW; My family don't have all the money in the world, especially not after getting the plasma

Oh, and you say, is the TV-card any good? I got lost there

JW

A E6400 should do nicely. No point in going any higher unless gaming is the primary usage.

...

Yes, the PVR-500-MCE is the best card around unless you want to spend 3x the amount on some "uber" card. Its also one of the few cards in that price-range with two tv-tuners. That means you can record something on one channel and at the same time watching something on another channel or watch two channels at once (picture in picture).

Btw make sure the card is the MCE-version (MediaCenter Edition). The MCE-card is a little cheaper because it doesnt come with any tv-software because you use MediaCenter's own built-in SW, and yes, it comes with a MediCenter-compatible remote.

In short: you cant go wrong with the PVR-500-MCE (damn! sounds like I'm at work, trying to sell you something )

I dont own the card myself, but I've installed and configured them for many customers at work. Its all great feedback.

Hauppauge PVR-500 MCE product page

Thanks for all the feedback, the MCE-version is a little more expensive, but I'll survive.

So is the Conroe to the P4 D, but you said it was much more quiet, and that's a good thing

Thanks again

JW

[blackdog~ 0]

Does the P5B-VM mobo look appropriate for a Windows dedicated server with an E6600?

Edit: Just to clarify, it's a W2K3 Enterprise server..

[shadow 6]

Does the P5B-VM mobo look appropriate for a Windows dedicated server with an E6600?

Edit: Just to clarify, it's a W2K3 Enterprise server..

It all comes down to what you want to serve. As a "amateur" server any motherboard does the job.

The P5B-series got a very good bus transfer-rate but thats irrelevant for any server except a application-server running tasks with alot of data being processed. A Enterprise server eats RAM like there is no tomorrow if you use it to its potential I'd invest in alot of RAM (do you really need to run a Enterprise server?). But again, it all comes down to what kind of server you're using it as.

Here are the keypoints for the different servers (everything else is 2nd priority):

Database-server: tons of fast RAM

File-server: fast storage solution (RAID5 or RAID10)

Application-server: fast CPU and bus

I'm guessing you are going to use it as a gaming server so it will be a application-server, but games are "light" software so I doubt the bus will make a difference. They're CPU-intensive more than anything else. If you really must get absolute top bus-performance you should buy Kingston HyperX PC8500 RAM. They are running 675MHz instead of the regular 667MHz. The motherboard specificly support these modules from Kingston and automaticly set the bus-speed accordingly for maximum performance. They are very expensive though (and hard to get these days).

I also bought the same motherboard (P5B) but thats more out of previous experience with Asus' Intel-boards. Should do nicely with a E6700, 7950GX2, Adaptec ASC2420 and 3x250GB Seagate (RAID5). It could sound like I'm going to run a file-server but it really is just me being lazy when it comes to backups and want some added performance in the process

Fingers crossed the post office delivers tomorrow.