Steel Beasts Pro PE

[PuFu 4600]

In this case they are greedy because

A) They know how old, and frankly, outdated their engine is.

B) They charge for updates

C) The Product is very expensive compared to other games and even sims.

I know how free market works, if they can find enough people who are willing to fork out so much cash for a product that imho is outstanding in many areas, but also lacking in many others, and they are making a profit, good for them.

However there are competitors, like Graviteam for example, who will sell you their latest tank sim for under 30€

http://store.steampowered.com/app/286280/

In my opinion Steel beasts is simply outdated (it does offer a lot in gameplay and realism but the community is really small, mostly due to the high price)

This is not a discussion about the WORTH of a product.

It is about the fact that you have called greedy a group of people selling a game to whatever price they want to sell a game for over 100$ which is infantile mentality (pushing the blame to someone else just because you can't afford it, or you are unwilling to pay the price). They are in a bussines of selling a product at high price and lower volumes rather than high volume and lower price. What is wrong with that?

I have said it before - the market self adjusts. If they would have real competition they simply wouldn't sell. "exploiting interested people to the maximum?". You really made me pity laugh at you based on this sort of stupidity.

A) It is outdated in terms of visual fidelity, not simulation. For some that matters less. Again, the so call exploited people don't seem to care

B) If you buy a phone with 16gb of internal memory but soon you run out of space, would you call greedy the store willing to buyback the old one and sell you a 64gb one instead? Simply because it doesn't do it for free?

C) Yes, again, no one is forcing it down your throat...You can always buy the alternative. Same goes for DCS and any other nitche market out there.

Edited May 25, 2015 by PuFu

[opteryx 1562]

I just want to point out that there really isn't any alternative to SB.

[Fadi 22]

Eh, calling Steel Armor a competitor is stretching it a bit. Ssnake / Nils has said eSim Games priority is first and foremost on the professional sector... something like the dynamic campaign like SABOW has is out of scope, given that the profits from the consumer version (from what little they've said about it) are miniscule compared to what they earn from contracts. The fact that it is fun as a game is secondary to them.

That said they are (slowly) changing things in the engine. 2.64 had the new lighting system and from the devs own statement on the forums, they've been working on terrain and UI for several years and have the deadline set for next year.

[Tonci87 163]

@Pufu, obviously we both have different views on worth and business ethics, however calling someone stupid over something like this only shows shotcomings in character on your side.

[PuFu 4600]

@Pufu, obviously we both have different views on worth and business ethics,

good grief lad, are you in kindergarden? For the love of gods, this is not about the difference in opinion here. It is about your lack of understanding of how an open economy market works, and because you fail to understand that you act like this:

Another plausible reson is that they are greedy and want to exploit interested players to the maximum.

Is it still so darn expensive? Yes? So the devs are still stupid? OK..

however calling someone stupid over something like this only shows shotcomings in character on your side.

the irony of that, isn't it? ^^

i am aware english is not your first language, however, in english, there is a difference between "stupidity" and "stupid". IE: The stupidity of your above post makes me pity you VS The developers are stupid...Catch the difference?

anyways, you seem to be such a sensitive creature for someone with such ferm convictions on the internet...

[kualus 1]

Another plausible reson is that they are greedy and want to exploit interested players to the maximum. That explanation seems very likely when you consider that you have to pay for some upgrades.

The upgrades you have to pay for are the major ones. They come once every 15 months plus or minus 3 months, and you only pay $25 or so for each one. Minor updates in between are free.

This is not a discussion about the WORTH of a product.

It is about the fact that you have called greedy a group of people selling a game to whatever price they want to sell a game for over 100$ which is infantile mentality (pushing the blame to someone else just because you can't afford it, or you are unwilling to pay the price). They are in a bussines of selling a product at high price and lower volumes rather than high volume and lower price. What is wrong with that?

I have said it before - the market self adjusts. If they would have real competition they simply wouldn't sell. "exploiting interested people to the maximum?". You really made me pity laugh at you based on this sort of stupidity.

A) It is outdated in terms of visual fidelity, not simulation. For some that matters less. Again, the so call exploited people don't seem to care

B) If you buy a phone with 16gb of internal memory but soon you run out of space, would you call greedy the store willing to buyback the old one and sell you a 64gb one instead? Simply because it doesn't do it for free?

C) Yes, again, no one is forcing it down your throat...You can always buy the alternative. Same goes for DCS and any other nitche market out there.

It's not so much greed as wanting to keep "g4m3rz" out. You're right though in saying that the price would drop should they run into competition-for the SB Pro version they sell to armies. If price competition happened with SB Pro PE, they probably wouldn't care.

Eh, calling Steel Armor a competitor is stretching it a bit. Ssnake / Nils has said eSim Games priority is first and foremost on the professional sector... something like the dynamic campaign like SABOW has is out of scope, given that the profits from the consumer version (from what little they've said about it) are miniscule compared to what they earn from contracts. The fact that it is fun as a game is secondary to them.

That said they are (slowly) changing things in the engine. 2.64 had the new lighting system and from the devs own statement on the forums, they've been working on terrain and UI for several years and have the deadline set for next year.

100% correct.

@Pufu, obviously we both have different views on worth and business ethics, however calling someone stupid over something like this only shows shotcomings in character on your side.

It probably does.

[Tonci87 163]

I believe they would actually be making more money if they offered their product for a lower price because more people would be buying it. But then they also choose to inflate the price by making that dongle thing (they still have that right?) mandatory for every license.

[kualus 1]

Yep, they still have the CodeMeter dongle. I don't mind it, but plenty of gamers do. In fact, I wouldn't be surprise if the CodeMeter dongle kept "gamers" out on its own, despite any price drop. In fact, digital distribution has made gamers scared of physical media. In any case, the dongle is excellent, I never had a problem with it in years of service, and you can download the game files themselves without having to order a DVD.

[Tonci87 163]

Yep, they still have the CodeMeter dongle. I don't mind it, but plenty of gamers do. In fact, I wouldn't be surprise if the CodeMeter dongle kept "gamers" out on its own, despite any price drop. In fact, digital distribution has made gamers scared of physical media. In any case, the dongle is excellent, I never had a problem with it in years of service, and you can download the game files themselves without having to order a DVD.

Yeah Physical stuff can indeed scare of gamers, if someone buys a game nowadays he expects to be able to play it as soon as he finishes downloading it. Having to wait a few days for a USB dongle to arrive in the mail isn´t really consumer friendly in todays digital age, and it also makes the product more expensive than it should be.

[kualus 1]

Yeah Physical stuff can indeed scare of gamers, if someone buys a game nowadays he expects to be able to play it as soon as he finishes downloading it. Having to wait a few days for a USB dongle to arrive in the mail isn´t really consumer friendly in todays digital age, and it also makes the product more expensive than it should be.

eSimGames does have a temporary license arrangement where you can install a temporary license on your computer, download the game files, and get right to playing. Then when the CodeMeter dongle arrives, you can transition to the permanent license on it. It's still a little complicated.

[Tonci87 163]

eSimGames does have a temporary license arrangement where you can install a temporary license on your computer, download the game files, and get right to playing. Then when the CodeMeter dongle arrives, you can transition to the permanent license on it. It's still a little complicated.

Well I get it´s better than nothing

They have to be pretty afraid of pirates if they still stick to such a technique (no doubt connected to the high price) although I doubt that piracy would be a huge problem for such a niche game :plain:

[Fadi 22]

Well I get it´s better than nothing

They have to be pretty afraid of pirates if they still stick to such a technique (no doubt connected to the high price) although I doubt that piracy would be a huge problem for such a niche game :plain:

According to a Wibu PDF, eSims has had issues with piracy (by the Chinese no less) before the dongle approach. Imgur screenshot (because linking to random PDFs is totally safe): http://i.imgur.com/tVBwtQU.png

Since the consumer version isn't their priority, the dongle system works "well enough" and that the protection system does need to get periodically updated... while there's already some differences between Pro and Pro PE (mostly things ), why add one more thing to the list?

I'd say a bigger annoyance than the dongle is the cap on multiplayer. Unless you specifically request (and are granted) a server hoster license, you're capped to 8 people in a session. Short of mobbing the weekly TGIF games or another groups session, there's no real way to get people interested in anything more than small groups.

[Tonci87 163]

According to a Wibu PDF, eSims has had issues with piracy (by the Chinese no less) before the dongle approach. Imgur screenshot (because linking to random PDFs is totally safe): http://i.imgur.com/tVBwtQU.png

Since the consumer version isn't their priority, the dongle system works "well enough" and that the protection system does need to get periodically updated... while there's already some differences between Pro and Pro PE (mostly things ), why add one more thing to the list?

I'd say a bigger annoyance than the dongle is the cap on multiplayer. Unless you specifically request (and are granted) a server hoster license, you're capped to 8 people in a session. Short of mobbing the weekly TGIF games or another groups session, there's no real way to get people interested in anything more than small groups.

Oh really? didn´t knw that, I imagine only 8 players is a bit smallscale.

[kualus 1]

Yes, but they do grant to privileged individuals licenses which allow them to host unlimited players in multiplayer.

[kualus 1]

http://www.steelbeasts.com/sbforums/showthread.php?t=21198

Do you really want to know how low this community can sink? This community sinks low enough that people have to post PMs to show how disrespectful a poster was, and these same people get shouted down because the offender is a member of the old guard. Said old guard offender has no high ground to lecture on, since he started this shit stirring deliberately after Tjay's criticisms were answered in a satisfactory manner by Nils.

Well while going to check on the forms I received a PM from Tacbat stating this:

Since the thread was locked before I could reply to your posts, I'm going to do it by PM. This also will avoid further threads from being locked.

Tjay:

When I said "Big boys", I was referring to those within eSim who hold senior positions. I am certainly not one of them, and I am under no illusions of grandeur as to where I fit in. I'm only a beta tester, so in the larger scheme of things, that ranks me pretty much at the bottom. In my view we're all beta testers in one way or another.

I am certainly not privy to the internal goings on at eSim, but I've been around long enough to understand why things are the way they are. Here's a saying that might help you put things in perspective:

"Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."

So stop worrying about things you cannot change. There are many things that I wish eSim would address sooner or do differently, but that's just not going to happen when and how I want it to, but do you see me complaining about it? Just enjoy the sim for what it is now, and don't be discouraged when thinking about what it could be.

Next, you made this comment:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tjay View Post

But I find it very odd using a beta version - which many people do not have, and for which licenses are no longer available - to play an officially-sanctioned sanctioned multiplayer event was ever considered.

The whole reason why the beta was released to the community was to test the changes made to the network code. Kinda hard to test this if you don’t run network sessions, isn’t it? On what do you base your assertion that “many†people don’t have the beta? It was available for about two months and there’s only one person that I know of that didn’t get it.

You're starting to become known as a constant complainer. There's been more than one thread that has been locked as a result of comments you've made over the past few months. I'm very surprised that you haven't received a temporary ban because of that, which goes to show that the moderators are very tolerant when it comes to such things. I, on the other hand, am not. Nor do I forget things like that. I don't know what has happened to you lately. Maybe you've just fallen in with the wrong crowd.

In the future, pause for a moment and really take a close look at your posts before you make them. If there's a chance that it might come off as being overly negative, then you should probably reword it, otherwise you're going to get a negative response in return, and that should not surprise you. If you have a question to ask, then by all means go ahead and ask it, but you can leave out the additional insulting remarks such as:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tjay View Post

'Yeah, we know it's broke, but we aren't going to fix it 'til next year' is, with all due respect, not great customer service.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tjay View Post

…why eSim appear not to be addressing this apparently important problem with any urgency..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tjay View Post

Obviously eSim finds making changes to the .exe file 'challenging'...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tjay View Post

…and are therefore mystified as to why these problems are not being addressed as a matter of extreme urgency.'

There’s nothing “polite†at all about the manner in which you chose to make your request for an explanation.

In the Leopard 2E hotfix thread, did you even stop for a second to say "Thanks eSim. I appreciate that you took the time to address this so quickly"? No, you didn't. You weren't satisfied with that and wanted to know if more bugs were going to be fixed before the next update. That gives me the impression of being ungrateful. It's no wonder that Volcano mentioned that he would likely forgo future hotfixes if that's the response he gets. Thanks for taking that away from the community.

Assassin:

See my comment above to Tjay about the "big boys."

Of course I'm not representing eSim, and any thoughts that I do are purely ignorant on your behalf. I thought you knew better than this, but I apparently overestimated your understanding of that fact. Yes, I am a beta tester, but that doesn't mean that I can't express my own personal opinion when I want to. So your comment on being “unprofessional" is completely irrelevant.

I find it very amusing that you would call someone else "unprofessional". That has to be the biggest joke in SB history after all the stunts you've pulled in your limited time here in the SB community. If there's a bigger hypocrite within the SB forum then you, I haven't seen one. Your reputation for being a trouble-maker is well known. It isn't going to go away, and I'm relieved that I am not the least bit associated with you whatsoever. I'm sure if the greater community was made aware of your previous devious actions, they would distance themselves as far away from you as possible. You like to "stir the pot", but when someone calls you out you can't handle it and go crying to Nils about it. I wouldn't be surprised if a copy of this PM found its way to Nils as confirmation of your modus operandi. Maybe one day you'll mature into a man who can handle the consequences of his own actions, but I expect that day is very far off.

I should say "thank you" to you for adding me to your ignore list. Finally, that's one thing you've done to improve my overall enjoyment of the SB community. I am absolutely thrilled that I will no longer have to put up with you on the forum. This is a gift I know many others would love to have as well, and I feel privileged to be one of the first!

Asid:

See my above comment to Assassin about being a beta tester. If you think for a second that I'm limited to what I can say on the forum because of my status as a beta tester then you are gravely mistaken. I can express my opinion within the rules of the forum too, so if I take exception to someone being negative, condescending, ungrateful, etc, then I will call them out. This "expression of opinions" works two ways, so you can't have one person say something and then expect someone else to be censored because they happen to be a beta tester. That's a double-standard but hopefully this has been sufficiently explained for you by Volcano in that thread so you now understand this, along with ever one else who was under a different impression.

If you are concerned about people’s name appearing in the credits and their behavior, then you should also talk to Assassin (Lance Locke) about that as well since his name also appears there, and his behavior has been among the worst that I’ve seen. I guess you just haven’t been around here long enough to know who you are associating with. Perhaps you should be more careful about making comments about which you know nothing about.

I also have a hypothesis about why there aren’t many new posts being made on the forum, and it isn’t because people are fearful of an attack, as you put it. I find it much more likely that most people have a life outside of SB and don’t dedicate their days and weekends browsing the forum and playing SB. It’s great that you have enough time on your hands that you can spend nearly every waking moment playing SB, duplicating posts in different threads on the forum, posting AAR’s and running a VU, but perhaps you should take a break from SB for a while and go and enjoy life a bit. Spend some time with your girlfriend/boyfriend/wife/husband as the case may be and stop placing so much importance on SB.

I too have noticed a recurring theme within the forum. It seems that all the issues of late have been with individuals from within your VU. Maybe you should review your "code of conduct" within your VU's membership to prevent those individuals from continuing to tarnish the reputation of the "Dogs of War". I guess your code doesn't extend to behavior on the forum. I have no problems when people bring up points in a courteous and respectful manner, but I will not sit idly by when I see something that I take offense to. So get a grip on your boys, otherwise nothing is going to change.

It's great to see you sticking up for Tjay though. I guess you don't think enough of him to be able to stand up for himself and the consequences of his actions. In the future, I would mind your own business and keep you naive and uninformed opinions to yourself. You are not helping matters and are only trying to add fuel to the fire. I guess you live a pretty boring life and need to add excitement and drama to it through antagonistic posts on the forum.

All:

Nice try coming together in your “pack†and trying to cause further problems on the forum. It was a very transparent move. Interesting that no one else within the community made a post supporting your position. That tells me volumes about what they think of you and your actions. That should tell each and every one of you something.

In the future, I will continue to call people out when they make disruptive, negative or offensive posts on the forum. If you're overly sensitive to that approach and don't like it, then that's just too bad. You can always leave. Get the message?

Well I wonder how many rules are broken here, but anyways Its now public Tacbat. I personally ignored your attack here and the reasons I haven't been around has been for some personally family reasons. So I will be back and yes I have make mistakes but made up for them.

Note the people talking about how PMs should stay private. Not a single one of them protested when one of their old guard and eSim's semi-official video producer posted one of my private emails on their forum, with the offending shitbag lying about having no other way to contact me, even though I wrote in it to not respond to me, and he did have another way to contact me. I had to fight with Nils to get it taken down, with him spewing bullshit about how the rules were there to "protect the forum members" and could not be used by me, and lying by stating that I had already posted all of the contents publicly.

[Tonci87 163]

In a very short sentence, what is this about?

Toxic community? Wouldn´t surprise me the least. Arma can have a toxic, very elitist community from time to time, I can imagine it can be much worse with such a full blown hardcore sim.

[kualus 1]

Yeah, that's what it is about. Personally, from my interactions, I haven't seen anything toxic here, but then again after the Steel Beasts community, this place doesn't seem toxic at all. The sim is hardcore, to be sure. Not in the DCS sense of "make ALL the switches and buttons clickable!". But in the skill and time required to achieve competence in gameplay, yes it is hardcore.

To be honest, anyone in the Steel Beasts community who is in a VU isn't toxic at all. The downside is that the community acts passive-aggressive to any VU that doesn't come from Germany.

[ronin_ge 10]

Another plausible reson is that they are greedy and want to exploit interested players to the maximum. That explanation seems very likely when you consider that you have to pay for some upgrades.

Well, If you consider that ARMA III shipped at prizes around 50€, and add to that the Price of arma II, you are in the 100€ mark as well. BI offers also DLC you have to pay for...which can land you well above that rate.

Are they greedy? I'd say no. But in good old capitalist fashion, they try to make a buck. Thas why the are a company.

Same goes for esim.

SB is sold for 115$, and received dozends of upgrades sinze 2007. You don't have to buy updates, and if you buy the latest, you have all "goodies" of the previous ones included. Hardly a rip off.

[chrisb 196]

I wouldn't worry about game devs wanting to make money. Its something most of us humans like to do.

[ronin_ge 10]

I wouldn't worry about game devs wanting to make money. ...

+1

After all, thats the purpose behind making a game :D

[Janez 530]

+1

After all, thats the purpose behind making a game :D

I like to hope there is a bit more to it for most developers :pray:

[vran. 13]

I like to hope there is a bit more to it for most developers :pray:

If you make games for a living it makes sense so but if you make them for passion or hobby then there's more to it than that. :p

Although it's possible to cover both aspects too.

[ronin_ge 10]

... The downside is that the community acts passive-aggressive to any VU that doesn't come from Germany.

Would be astounding, last time I checked only a small minority of users seems to be from germany.

There are also only 2 VU with german origin listed, with more comming from Spain, RF, US, UK, AUS...

[kualus 1]

http://www.steelbeasts.com/sbforums/showpost.php?p=273449&postcount=3377

Then, if you ask the practitioners what kind of night combat activities they train in the classroom, you get the reply "Oh, we don't." - at which point you wonder if the simple eye candy implementation wouldn't actually be the sensible thing to do.:D

[ronin_ge 10]

http://www.steelbeasts.com/sbforums/showpost.php?p=273449&postcount=3377

...

Which is very correct. There is not much you can train for night fighting in a vehicle or classroom simulator. For night combat training you have to be outside. At night...