Rogue2020 0 Posted January 27, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Wobble @ Jan. 25 2002,20:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If I remember correctly.. the Borg could assimalate/adapt to weapons.. so you might kill a few with on thing but soon they become immune to it... Â I think the reason they were killed by the Tommy gun was because they could not adapt to a solid object like that (bullet).. .. Â and couldent their ships do the same thing (cant remember).. so you may destroy 1 cube, but the next would be impervious to the weapon that attacked the first... <span id='postcolor'> It's bullshit...they have to adapt because they are energy weapons...solid objects shouldn't get through at all.....you could use a force field as a bridge...... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EveronVetsAgainstTheWar 0 Posted January 27, 2002 Has anyone noticed that the Borg are exactly like the Zerg from Starcraft, but are opposites? Borg = Mech, Zerg = Bio. Both 4 letters. Both end with G. Both do things as a whole and have no individuals. Both move from planet to planet adding things to them from the things they encounter. INTERESTING Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ex-RoNiN 0 Posted January 28, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (residuum @ Jan. 27 2002,04:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Has anyone noticed that the Borg are exactly like the Zerg from Starcraft, but are opposites? Â Borg = Mech, Zerg = Bio. Both 4 letters. Â Both end with G. Â Both do things as a whole and have no individuals. Â Both move from planet to planet adding things to them from the things they encounter. INTERESTING<span id='postcolor'> THERE IS A UNIVERSE-WIDE CONSPIRACY TO ADD US TO AN INTER-GALACTIC COLLECTIVE AND MAKE US ALL WANT TO WATCH TOP-OF-THE-POPS AND CORONATION STREET!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frizbee 0 Posted January 28, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Rogue2020 @ Jan. 21 2002,11:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">that's not what I call perfection.....<span id='postcolor'> Small words, from a small mind trying to attack what it doesn't understand.. We strive for perfection. We are the Borg, lower your shields and surrender your ships, we will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rogue2020 0 Posted January 28, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (residuum @ Jan. 26 2002,16:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Has anyone noticed that the Borg are exactly like the Zerg from Starcraft, but are opposites? Â Borg = Mech, Zerg = Bio. Both 4 letters. Â Both end with G. Â Both do things as a whole and have no individuals. Â Both move from planet to planet adding things to them from the things they encounter. INTERESTING<span id='postcolor'> Well star trek's borg were around way before star craft... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rogue2020 0 Posted January 28, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Frizbee @ Jan. 27 2002,20:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">that's not what I call perfection.....<span id='postcolor'> Small words, from a small mind trying to attack what it doesn't understand.. We strive for perfection. We are the Borg, lower your shields and surrender your ships, we will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile.<span id='postcolor'> Who tries to be perfect?...I don't...it's not even possible for anything to be perfect and even if it was what the fuck is perfect?....it all comes down to opinion...what a single person find's perfect.... I'm sure though a small mind...I understand things with a depth that no one could possibly understand...... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Oligo 1 Posted January 28, 2002 Borg-type civilizations are what Ian M. Banks calls a Giant Hegemonizing Swarm. These swarms convert everything (all mass) to their own image. GHS type events are one of the outside context problems a advanced, peaceful, starfaring civilization can encounter. You should all read The Use Of Weapons, Consider Phlebas, Look to Windward and Excession by Ian M. Banks. His other novels also rock. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vir 0 Posted January 28, 2002 You guys were MUCH too quick to discount the feds... here are some examples/arguments: 1. The empire has no transporters, so would have to land a ship on a fed ship to get people on board, and since fed ships also have shields, they would first need to disable it. After that, whats the point? so that means no darth vader w/light sabre (and besides the fed would kick the empires ass in close quarters, phasers vs those totally inacurate blasters) 2. As mentioned above, feds have shields, and the empire has that bad habit of pounding on enemy ships with hundreds of small lasers. In an episode of star trek i remember, the enterprise was being threatened by a race that used lasers, and someone mentioned that they would be almost useless against shields. 3. Darth Vaders Strangle thing was used only once, and from only about 10 feet away, that means that he could only do it from close range, otherwise why wouldnt he just strangle Luke+Han Solo and be over with it. Plus his being able to throw stuff around wouldnt be usefull, becuase he wouldnt be able to get near an enemy crew (refer to 1.). 4. The empire counts heavily on fighters and tiny little bombers that would most likely go unnoticed by a huge starship with shields able to survive many photon torpedoes. 5. When the empire and rebels finnally fought it out with big capital ships, did anyone notice how much of a pounding they could take from those puny lasers? even if they could get the sheilds of a fed ship down, it would take hours of blasting away to get a hull breach. 6. Star Destroyers were pathetic. If you take out their 2 towers, its deflectors go down, and even those puny y-wing bombers little missles could take it out. I remember from the game X-Wing taking out a star destroyer with a group of 3 X-Wings. 7. Speed: From what i remember in star wars, Han solos ship was supposed to be really fast, yet it only went the speed of light (correct me if im wrong) whereas fed ships can go up to warp 9. That and in battle fed ships move fast, and change course often, Whereas empire ships are usually standing still, or moving in a straight line. 8. The death star was meant to be used against PLANETS not fast moving starships. It couldnt track a ship with that huge laser, and i doubt anyone would be stupid enough to fly in front of it. Besides that it only had point defenses, like an aircraft carrier. Hmm i probably missed something, but i think i did a good enough job. putting the empire up against the borg... now thats just dumb (btw the reason the tommy gun went thru borg shields was becuase they were holographic, and the borg didnt consider them a threat. Sad that i know that, isnt it?) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shabadu 0 Posted January 28, 2002 Why the hell hasn't there benn a star-trek vs. star-wars game? I can even think up a plot and everything. It's not like crossovers are that hard. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ex-RoNiN 0 Posted January 28, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Shabadu @ Jan. 28 2002,17:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Why the hell hasn't there benn a star-trek vs. star-wars game? I can even think up a plot and everything. It's not like crossovers are that hard.<span id='postcolor'> There actually is one Not a game by itself, but a mod for Star Trek:Armada!! Amazing, innit!?!?! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frizbee 0 Posted January 28, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Rogue2020 @ Jan. 28 2002,12:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">that's not what I call perfection.....<span id='postcolor'> Small words, from a small mind trying to attack what it doesn't understand.. We strive for perfection. We are the Borg, lower your shields and surrender your ships, we will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile.<span id='postcolor'> Who tries to be perfect?...I don't...it's not even possible for anything to be perfect and even if it was what the fuck is perfect?....it all comes down to opinion...what a single person find's perfect.... I'm sure though a small mind...I understand things with a depth that no one could possibly understand......<span id='postcolor'> Um.. obviously you haven't seen the Star Trek Movies... (First Contact especially) That is what the Borg Queen answers when she is told that the borg aren't perfect... The lower half is what the Borg say to species that they encounter.. that.. and "We have analysed your defensive capabilities as being unable to withstand us. Surrender yourself to us. We are the Borg, resistance is futile" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rogue2020 0 Posted January 29, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">7. Speed: From what i remember in star wars, Han solos ship was supposed to be really fast, yet it only went the speed of light (correct me if im wrong) whereas fed ships can go up to warp 9. That and in battle fed ships move fast, and change course often, Whereas empire ships are usually standing still, or moving in a straight line. <span id='postcolor'> Someone added it up once and warp 4 is like 200X the speed of light..... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
second_draw 0 Posted January 29, 2002 how would you "add it up" or "find out" what warp speed is in star trek... i doubt the script writers would be consistent with warp speed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sith 0 Posted January 29, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">1. The empire has no transporters, so would have to land a ship on a fed ship to get people on board, and since fed ships also have shields, they would first need to disable it. After that, whats the point? so that means no darth vader w/light sabre (and besides the fed would kick the empires ass in close quarters, phasers vs those totally inacurate blasters)<span id='postcolor'> Well....for starters the fact that your average ISD has several regiments of troops on board. The Imperial ships all have ship sections with big blastdoors, so the Feds will have one helluva hard time taking over an entire ship. </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">2. As mentioned above, feds have shields, and the empire has that bad habit of pounding on enemy ships with hundreds of small lasers. In an episode of star trek i remember, the enterprise was being threatened by a race that used lasers, and someone mentioned that they would be almost useless against shields.<span id='postcolor'> The SW universe doesnt use just 'lasers'...they're TurboLasers. A standard laser consists of a focused beam, but the SW turbolasers seem to be more like slower moving 'packets' of energy, most likely way more powerfull. And besides those, most ships carry Ion cannons aswell...great stuff to take out shields with. I dont recall the Feds ever using anti-shield Ion cannons or something (they just keep pounding on enemy ships with their weapons till the shields give up). </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">3. Darth Vaders Strangle thing was used only once, and from only about 10 feet away, that means that he could only do it from close range, otherwise why wouldnt he just strangle Luke+Han Solo and be over with it. Plus his being able to throw stuff around wouldnt be usefull, becuase he wouldnt be able to get near an enemy crew (refer to 1.).<span id='postcolor'> Tell that to Admiral Ozzel...Vader strangled him from another ship The fact that he didnt 'just' kill Luke and Han is simple (if you ever really watched to movies). He wanted to have Luke turn to the Dark side, and used both him and Han constantly to lead the Empire to the location of the Rebel Alliance. A dead man aint gonna tell/show you too much. </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">4. The empire counts heavily on fighters and tiny little bombers that would most likely go unnoticed by a huge starship with shields able to survive many photon torpedoes.<span id='postcolor'> As seen in many SW games/books etc, the biggest mistake the Empire made was to underestimate the power of Rebel fighters. One single fighter might not be too much of a threat...but having several squadrons raping your shields will get your attention soon enough. A standard ISD has like 72 fighters/bombers on board...not something to underestimate I'd say. </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">5. When the empire and rebels finnally fought it out with big capital ships, did anyone notice how much of a pounding they could take from those puny lasers? even if they could get the sheilds of a fed ship down, it would take hours of blasting away to get a hull breach.<span id='postcolor'> That's the whole trick with SW shields. They practically immune to normal laser cannons and stuff...but there you have those nasty Ion cannons, their sole purpose is to rip through enemy shields like a knife through butter... </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">6. Star Destroyers were pathetic. If you take out their 2 towers, its deflectors go down, and even those puny y-wing bombers little missles could take it out. I remember from the game X-Wing taking out a star destroyer with a group of 3 X-Wings.<span id='postcolor'> Once again...hence the Ion cannons... I know, I know...the X-Wing doesnt have any Ion cannons, BUT I can assure you, try that trick on the ISD again in XwA (which can handle more units onscreen) and you're in for a nasty surprise. The limited number of ships required to take out an ISD in the older games was 100% a gameplay issue. </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">7. Speed: From what i remember in star wars, Han solos ship was supposed to be really fast, yet it only went the speed of light (correct me if im wrong) whereas fed ships can go up to warp 9. That and in battle fed ships move fast, and change course often, Whereas empire ships are usually standing still, or moving in a straight line.<span id='postcolor'> 'Warp 9' doesnt say shit to me about what speed we're looking at...now 'several times the speed of light' is a bit better to visualise. </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">8. The death star was meant to be used against PLANETS not fast moving starships. It couldnt track a ship with that huge laser, and i doubt anyone would be stupid enough to fly in front of it. Besides that it only had point defenses, like an aircraft carrier.<span id='postcolor'> Indeed, they wont be taking shots at a ship the size of a Fed ship like the Enterprise with it. Why not? Cuz it's waaaay too small! What's the size of that kinda class ship anyway?...400, 500 meters? Roughly 1/4th the size of an ISD, something that wouldnt rise above Corvette, or maybe Frigate class in the SW universe. Ok....that was one showing of utter boring sadness Think I'm sick? Check this out for a load of SW obsession Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pete 1 Posted January 29, 2002 that should silence the trekkies sith! well said, i bow for you knowledge Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rogue2020 0 Posted January 29, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> Indeed, they wont be taking shots at a ship the size of a Fed ship like the Enterprise with it. Why not? Cuz it's waaaay too small! What's the size of that kinda class ship anyway?...400, 500 meters? Roughly 1/4th the size of an ISD, something that wouldnt rise above Corvette, or maybe Frigate class in the SW universe<span id='postcolor'> The enterprise E is around 1100 meters long.....they say how big it is in first contact i'm just not sure exactly what he said.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rogue2020 0 Posted January 29, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (second_draw @ Jan. 28 2002,19:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">how would you "add it up" or "find out" what warp speed is in star trek... i doubt the script writers would be consistent with warp speed.<span id='postcolor'> Because on the new show enterprise he said they were moving at so and so kilometers per second....and they were at like warp 4.1....and a guy added it up..... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sith 0 Posted January 29, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The enterprise E is around 1100 meters long.....they say how big it is in first contact i'm just not sure exactly what he said....<span id='postcolor'> Ok...then that'd make it something like cruiser class. Still no match for a battleship class vessle like an ISD (and dont be fooled by the 'Destroyer' part in that name...it really is battleship class). Oh and come to think of it....we didnt even discuss the matter Super StarDestroyer in this context...17 Km of Imperial sweetness Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 29, 2002 In X-Wing (old starwars game) laser ranges were less than 2km. In Starfleet Command (star trek game) weapon ranges are more than 100000km. So federation would destroy empire's fighters from 50000km range and empire couldn't even fire their weapons. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christophercles 0 Posted January 29, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Rogue2020 @ Jan. 29 2002,20:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">how would you "add it up" or "find out" what warp speed is in star trek... i doubt the script writers would be consistent with warp speed.<span id='postcolor'> Because on the new show enterprise he said they were moving at so and so kilometers per second....and they were at like warp 4.1....and a guy added it up.....<span id='postcolor'> Im reading this from an official star trek text, so its acurate- warp 9.1 is close too 10,000 times the speed of light, but 10,000 times is exactly warp 10, which is unnatainable, since it requires infinite energy. The galaxy class, the generation before the soveriegn class (which the enterprise E is) is 642 metres long, and the soveriegn is supposed to be much smaller than that. And as someone said before, it doesnt matter that any star wars capital class ship has an ion cannon, because the outer limit of phaser range is supposed to be 20,000 km, and im pretty sure the ships wont have any point defence system to protect itself from anti-matter torpedoes. I was going to bring up the fact that start trek also has claoking technology, but when i think about it, so does darth mauls ship, even though you didnt see him use it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vir 0 Posted January 29, 2002 'Well....for starters the fact that your average ISD has several regiments of troops on board. The Imperial ships all have ship sections with big blastdoors, so the Feds will have one helluva hard time taking over an entire ship' Who said anything about taking over an empire ship? empire ships are too low tech to want to take over, even if they didnt have so many troops on them 'The SW universe doesnt use just 'lasers'...they're TurboLasers. A standard laser consists of a focused beam, but the SW turbolasers seem to be more like slower moving 'packets' of energy, most likely way more powerfull. And besides those, most ships carry Ion cannons aswell...great stuff to take out shields with. I dont recall the Feds ever using anti-shield Ion cannons or something (they just keep pounding on enemy ships with their weapons till the shields give up)' The shields of SW and ST are different though, and while fighters with ion cannons could probably take out a ships shields, i have to remind you of phasers range, and seeing as they move at the speed of light, 100% accuracy. the fighters would be destroyed just as left the hanger. that is, if the hanger didnt first catch a photon. 'Tell that to Admiral Ozzel...Vader strangled him from another ship The fact that he didnt 'just' kill Luke and Han is simple (if you ever really watched to movies). He wanted to have Luke turn to the Dark side, and used both him and Han constantly to lead the Empire to the location of the Rebel Alliance. A dead man aint gonna tell/show you too much' Thats well and good, although i dont remember him strangling anyone on another ship, but it still makes no sense at all that he didnt just strangle the captains of all the rebel ships they encountered. there has to be a reason why. 'As seen in many SW games/books etc, the biggest mistake the Empire made was to underestimate the power of Rebel fighters. One single fighter might not be too much of a threat...but having several squadrons raping your shields will get your attention soon enough. A standard ISD has like 72 fighters/bombers on board...not something to underestimate I'd say.' 72 fighters as compared to the enterprise D's 8(?) phasor banks with a recharge rate of about 5 seconds. thats about 45 seconds the fighters have to live if i did my math right. that doesnt give them time to get in range, let alone do any damage. 'That's the whole trick with SW shields. They practically immune to normal laser cannons and stuff...but there you have those nasty Ion cannons, their sole purpose is to rip through enemy shields like a knife through butter...' I dont remember capital ships having ion cannons, and i just discounted fighters. I also doubt that SW shields would hold up against phasors and photons, even if you couldnt just take out the 2 towers with 2 photons. ''Warp 9' doesnt say shit to me about what speed we're looking at...now 'several times the speed of light' is a bit better to visualise.' 'several times faster' is a dramatic understatment. 'Indeed, they wont be taking shots at a ship the size of a Fed ship like the Enterprise with it. Why not? Cuz it's waaaay too small! What's the size of that kinda class ship anyway?...400, 500 meters? Roughly 1/4th the size of an ISD, something that wouldnt rise above Corvette, or maybe Frigate class in the SW universe.' Im not sure at all about the size, but its completely irrelevant. 'size doesnt matter' is a saying that actually works here. Heres a situation: Bismark, biggest baddest battleship ever made im pretty sure, vs a small escort frigate of this era Who would win? The frigate, becuase of better weapons/longer range. 'that should silence the trekkies sith! well said, i bow for you knowledge' Dont discount me so soon. Btw whats XwA? it sounds interesting Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Damage Inc 0 Posted January 29, 2002 Who's been banned? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Akira 0 Posted January 29, 2002 Alrighty...I'm a Trekkie and I'm going to have to jump in now. I haven't read pages 1-4 so frgive me if I rehash. I'll just make some quick points.... Some one mentioned the ISD have several regiments of tropps on board, making it difficult to impossible for a Federation ship to take over an ISD. Well that is not entirely true. A-The Federation has specific commando ships and troop carriers that hold a large amount of Federation Marines for that sole purpose. B-The Federation has a little thing called the transporter giving it a tactical advantage. Not just for transporting large amounts of troops at one time, but for what is known as "hit and run' raids. Transport troops to a specific area of a ship to take out a vital function of the ship. ie "Thats odd. Our fighter bays won't open. Thats odd. Now our highly toted forward Ion cannon won't fire." C-As far as I remember, the Star Wars universe has nothing similiar to the transporter. So all those regiments of troops would have to head over to a Federation ship via shuttle or attempted docking. The shuttles would get taken out quite quickly by point defenses. And you would have to rip a Federation ship apart to try to dock with it, in which case there is no point in docking anyway. About the Ion Cannon also to pierce ships shields. The Federation has a similiar weapon as well called the Phaser Lance (see "All Good Things...") I guarentee an ISD will feel it. And yes...the ISD are big and huge. That just makes them harder to manuever. I have a picture of say...3-4 Galaxy class starships, flying around the ISD, popping and whacking...making the Galaxy's look like fighters, while the ISD lumbers along. Just for comparison also: Galaxy: 641m Sovereign: 680m Nebula: 452m and of course The Mighty Defiant: 170m Just a few Defiants I imagine could strafe an ISD into scrap metal. Not to mention the cloaking device... "They've disappeared." "I will go inform Lord Vader." Enough for now. Lunch time...be back. Back WHO THE HELL WOULD BUILD A 17KM SHIP??? Whats the point?? Also you mentioned the Super-Star Destroyer. If I remember correctly, one was taken out in ROTJ by the piddly rebel ships and fighters. And you expect it to stand up to a Federation ship? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Akira 0 Posted January 29, 2002 Oh yeah. And speaking of weaponry... The point defenses of Imperial ships literally suck...thus the fighters strafing ISDs and the Death Star. So I highly doubt that an ISD...or even a couple ISDs would be able to stand up to say, a squadron of Drone-Armed Cruisers (ie guided missles) sending wave, after wave, after wave of missles slamming into the ISD (I won't even get into the MIRV missles.), while safely sitting outside of the ISDs weapons range. Plus the ever present nuke mine. Plus the Plasma armed DNF which would put a serious hurt on any ships shields. Theres more to Star Trek ships than the Enterprise. But I do say...if the Borg came in strength...they'd all get wiped out...or seriously mangled. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
