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OT: I need to set up a small business server

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(With thanks to BIS for permitting me to open this OT thread). notworthy.gif

Dummy here in need of establishing some web accessable applications on a server. No prior experience.

This is a start-from-scratch project. The ultimate objective, if possible is to make everything K-I-S-S compliant. That stand for "Keep It Simple, Stupid" for those who thought otherwise. huh.gif

Let's start from the top down. I work for a small company that needs to implement the following 2 applications, for starters:

1) Problem/Incident tracking, allowing for registered customers and company staff to submit incidents and recommendations as well as company staff updating records as necessary.

2) A wiki, to be used to retain product documentation and FAQ information, with full public read access, and update access to registered users only.

FYI, these apps must be hosted from within the company's domain name. So subscription services for such apps hosted elsewhere is out.

There are several commercial and freeware packages available for both of the above. Recommendations will be needed.

However, now comes the really tricky part:

What kind of server should these be hosted on? Dedicated? In house? Hosted by a WEB hosting company? If the latter, some of these apps need to be installed by running an installer locally on the server. Can that be done?

What kind of server? Windows? Linux? Other?

What about security?

I'm sure there are other points I've missed between the top of the post and here.

Finally, and very important, where is there an appropriate forum where ignoramuses like me can continue this discussion, with a helpful forum members present, where I won't be laughed at too much? help.gif

TIA! wink_o.gif

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Guest RKSL-Rock

Dummy here in need of establishing some web accessable applications on a server. No prior experience.

OK there are a few options for you but most depend on how you want the system to work. Assuming that you already have a domain name to use as a point of entry for your users you can either host the database internally or on the web but there are some problems around that:

Internal hosting – there are some things you will need to setup first and may exceed your KISS requirements.

a) You’ll need a domain name with DNS control so that you can redirect the url to your ‘internal’ webserver(s).

b) You’ll need to be running a webserver (Apache, Microsoft IIS etc) on preferably a dedicated box in your company’s offices. (for data security/integrity its better if the box is only used for webservers.)

c) Also a database (MySQL, SQL etc)

d) Suitable bandwidth permanent internet connection.

External (Web) Hosting – probably the easiest option from the KISS point of view

a) Again the Domain Name.

b) Host must provide MySQL/SQL database facility

c) Have someone with basic MySQL experience or atleast fairly willing/able to learn quickly.

Internal hosting requires quite a bit of setup and investment in time and possibly a new box so it not going to be your best approach for the KISS philosophy.  3rd Party/External web hosting would be the best option for both deployment lead-time and ease.

1) Problem/Incident tracking, allowing for registered customers and company staff to submit incidents and recommendations as well as company staff updating records as necessary.

OK, there are some bits of free software available to do this, but the choice depends on how flexible you need the platform to be.  Do you need to customise the entry forms?

More flexible packages are available but aren’t free so again you may need to either accept some limits on the free system or invest if you have the budget.

One option you might want to consider is using a CMS like Mambo/Nuke etc and one of the integrated Support Ticket applets.  This would handle your user management as well as provide a customisable interface for your customers.

2) A wiki, to be used to retain product documentation and FAQ information, with full public read access, and update access to registered users only.

You can download and run any Wiki software on any webhost.  Most versions allow you to setup Editor Accounts with limited privileges very quickly.

There are several commercial and freeware packages available for both of the above. Recommendations will be needed.

If you can be a bit more specific about what you want to do(or how you’d like it to work, forms, departments etc) with the packages and I  will try and give you a few options, at the moment it looks like you have a wide choice as most of the free stuff will do what you want.

However, now comes the really tricky part:

What kind of server should these be hosted on? Dedicated? In house? Hosted by a WEB hosting company?

How much traffic are we talking about?  How many expected users?  

If we’re talking large data volumes and high transfer rate you might want to think about renting a dedicated server, but from what you are describing it’s probably not worth it. If we’re only talking a few thousand hits a day and relatively small bandwidth usage (ie <~5-10 gb per month) shared web-hosting packages with a decent host will be more than enough.

If the latter, some of these apps need to be installed by running an installer locally on the server. Can that be done?

Yes easily, all you need do is backup the SQL database and web files and copy them to the new server.

What kind of server? Windows? Linux? Other?

You can use any platform you want, although you may find Linux & MySQL hosting a lot cheaper.

What about security?

Again this depends a lot on how you host:

Internal – you need all the usual firewall and antivirus software installed and patched.  But you also need to be aware that if the web servers are also part of your internal LAN you run the risk of someone hacking into you network.  You’ll need to make sure that your internal LAN is protected from the web server.

External – most of your security concerns should be taken care off if you use a reputable host. You just need to make sure that the apps you use are patched to the appropriate security levels and it should be a problem.

I'm sure there are other points I've missed between the top of the post and here.

Finally, and very important, where is there an appropriate forum where ignoramuses like me can continue this discussion, with a helpful forum members present, where I won't be laughed at too much? help.gif

TIA! wink_o.gif

It depends on the route you take with your apps.  Most of the application’s authors sites will help you out.  If you have found some software you like the look of you can post there and ask these questions.  Only the Muppets will laugh, generally most will happily give advice.

Hope this helps you out a bit, if you need me to clarify anything PM me and I’ll walk though it with you.

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Dummy here in need of establishing some web accessable applications on a server. No prior experience.

OK there are a few options for you but most depend on how you want the system to work. Assuming that you already have a domain name to use as a point of entry for your users you can either host the database internally or on the web but there are some problems around that:

Internal hosting – there are some things you will need to setup first and may exceed your KISS requirements.

a) You’ll need a domain name with DNS control so that you can redirect the url to your ‘internal’ webserver(s).

b) You’ll need to be running a webserver (Apache, Microsoft IIS etc) on preferably a dedicated box in your company’s offices. (for data security/integrity its better if the box is only used for webservers.)

c) Also a database (MySQL, SQL etc)

d) Suitable bandwidth permanent internet connection.

External (Web) Hosting – probably the easiest option from the KISS point of view

a) Again the Domain Name.

b) Host must provide MySQL/SQL database facility

c) Have someone with basic MySQL experience or atleast fairly willing/able to learn quickly.

It is obvious that external hosting is much simpler.

Question: if we're installing packaged products, do we really need to know anything about the database the product uses?

Quote[/b] ]Internal hosting requires quite a bit of setup and investment in time and possibly a new box so it not going to be your best approach for the KISS philosophy.  3rd Party/External web hosting would be the best option for both deployment lead-time and ease.

Yep. So it seems.

Quote[/b] ]

1) Problem/Incident tracking, allowing for registered customers and company staff to submit incidents and recommendations as well as company staff updating records as necessary.

OK, there are some bits of free software available to do this, but the choice depends on how flexible you need the platform to be.  Do you need to customise the entry forms?

More flexible packages are available but aren’t free so again you may need to either accept some limits on the free system or invest if you have the budget.

I shouldn't have mentioned the word free. Money is not the issue. Simplicity is.

I tried installing a free problem tracking product on the company's existing site but something in the setup would not retain the initial password and I could not advance the install any further. The company's tech support also ran out of ideas. I'm guessing it had something to do with folder permissions. I have no idea how to modfiy them. BTW, the website is currently sitting on a Windows server machine.

Quote[/b] ]One option you might want to consider is using a CMS like Mambo/Nuke etc and one of the integrated Support Ticket applets.  This would handle your user management as well as provide a customisable interface for your customers.

I didn't know what CMS stood for until now nor did I previously know what Mambo was. Thanks.

Looking at their requirements, I see it says "Assuming you have a working Apache web server...". Obviously, that something I would have to request from our webhosting service and will likely require us to move to a dedicated server. OK.

I'm not saying I think Mambo is the way for us to go. But it's a consideration.

Quote[/b] ]

2) A wiki, to be used to retain product documentation and FAQ information, with full public read access, and update access to registered users only.

You can download and run any Wiki software on any webhost.  Most versions allow you to setup Editor Accounts with limited privileges very quickly.

Sigh! I'll have to try setting up MediaWiki again but I had problems the 1st time. Again, this is on a Windows Server machine.

Quote[/b] ]
There are several commercial and freeware packages available for both of the above. Recommendations will be needed.

If you can be a bit more specific about what you want to do(or how you’d like it to work, forms, departments etc) with the packages and I  will try and give you a few options, at the moment it looks like you have a wide choice as most of the free stuff will do what you want.

Yes. I've seen dozens of choice. Recommendations is what I need.

Quote[/b] ]

However, now comes the really tricky part:

What kind of server should these be hosted on? Dedicated? In house? Hosted by a WEB hosting company?

How much traffic are we talking about?  How many expected users?  

If we’re talking large data volumes and high transfer rate you might want to think about renting a dedicated server, but from what you are describing it’s probably not worth it. If we’re only talking a few thousand hits a day and relatively small bandwidth usage (ie <~5-10 gb per month) shared web-hosting packages with a decent host will be more than enough.

Well, here's an example of what confuses me. If a product like Mambo, has a requirement, like Apache, and I'm currently on a shared account where Apache is not available, will the WEB host change this according to my requirements? I suppose I'll have to ask.

Quote[/b] ]

If the latter, some of these apps need to be installed by running an installer locally on the server. Can that be done?

Yes easily, all you need do is backup the SQL database and web files and copy them to the new server.

Confused. Some of these installers are based on InstallShield. I believe you have to have local access to the server machine in order to run the installer. Am I wrong?

Quote[/b] ]
What kind of server? Windows? Linux? Other?

You can use any platform you want, although you may find Linux & MySQL hosting a lot cheaper.

OK.

Quote[/b] ]
Finally, and very important, where is there an appropriate forum where ignoramuses like me can continue this discussion, with a helpful forum members present, where I won't be laughed at too much? help.gif

TIA! wink_o.gif

It depends on the route you take with your apps.  Most of the application’s authors sites will help you out.  If you have found some software you like the look of you can post there and ask these questions.  Only the Muppets will laugh, generally most will happily give advice.

Hope this helps you out a bit, if you need me to clarify anything PM me and I’ll walk though it with you.

Thanks a bundle!

I'm going to retry installing MediaWiki and see if I can get past that and move on to experimenting with getting a problem tracking package installed.

All this is just for experimentation at this point.

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OK. Here are my stumbling blocks before I install MediaWiki:

From the install instructions:

Quote[/b] ]Required software:

* Web server with PHP 4.1.2 or higher (4.3.x is preferred)

* A MySQL server. 4.0.x is preferred, but 3.2.x should

work as well.

That seems OK, from our webhost's knowledgebase article.

Quote[/b] ]

MediaWiki is developed and tested mainly on Unix/Linux

platforms, but should work on Windows as well.

A Murphy experience just waiting to happen.

Quote[/b] ]If your PHP is configured as a CGI plug-in rather than

an Apache module you may experience problems, as this

configuration is not well tested. safe_mode is also not

tested and unlikely to work.

I have no idea but I don't think Apache is in place. Doomed already? confused_o.gif

Quote[/b] ]To run the install script, you'll need to temporarily make

the 'config' subdirectory writable by the web server. The

simplest way to do this on a Unix/Linux system is to make

it world-writable:

chmod a+w config

This is a Windows server system. Another nogo? help.gif

I'll be happy to consider another wiki package, if it's more appropriate for a Windows non-Apache environment. Anyone know?

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Guest RKSL-Rock

Question: if we're installing packaged products, do we really need to know anything about the database the product uses?

It depends on the application.  Some will walk you through the install and database setup, others might need tweaking or manual SQL updates. If you app doesn’t have a full installer then you may have some problems.

I shouldn't have mentioned the word free. Money is not the issue. Simplicity is.

There is nothing wrong with trying save some money.  The advantage of paying for a product is the support, having someone to turn to when it all goes wrong :P

I tried installing a free problem tracking product on the company's existing site but something in the setup would not retain the initial password and I could not advance the install any further. The company's tech support also ran out of ideas. I'm guessing it had something to do with folder permissions. I have no idea how to modfiy them. BTW, the website is currently sitting on a Windows server machine.

Ok if you are running on a windows machine, you will have to install PHP & MySQL to use some of the free stuff out there.  Microsoft doesn’t add support for languages other than its own.

You can get:

PHP from: http://www.php.net/

MySQL from :http://www.mysql.com/

It sound like the problems you had earlier were because there wasn’t a database engine running that was compatible with the software.  What app was it?

As for changing permissions on the webserver, you need to open up the IIS (Internet Information Services) control panel and edit the guest & user group permissions.  If its port related you will need to forward the appropriate ports to the server from your firewall.

I didn't know what CMS stood for until now nor did I previously know what Mambo was. Thanks.

CMS = Content Management System

You might want to take a look at http://www.cmsmatrix.org/ it cover a lot of the CMS/Portal software out there, some even have Problem Management features built in.

Looking at their requirements, I see it says "Assuming you have a working Apache web server...". Obviously, that something I would have to request from our webhosting service and will likely require us to move to a dedicated server. OK.

Yeah some versions require apache but they can be run in MS IIS5+ (Microsoft’s webserver).

I'm not saying I think Mambo is the way for us to go. But it's a consideration.

There are lots of alternatives and most of the commercial CMS platforms are Microsoft compatible.

Yes. I've seen dozens of choice. Recommendations is what I need.

TBH I’ve never used a Wiki platform in a commercial role before.  I usually resort to the CMS document management systems.  Most of the good ones allow user level control and instant editing in a package that you can customise much like the Wikis.

Sorry to sound a bit useless but it really depends on what features you are looking for.  If it a simple interface with basic functions try: http://www.qwikiwiki.com/

http://www.socialtext.com/ – I have a client that runs this and its quite stable and apparently secure

http://www.projectforum.com/pf/wiki.html – This might fit in with your KISS philosophy, there is a demo and free version to play with before buying but I’ve never used it myself.

Well, here's an example of what confuses me. If a product like Mambo, has a requirement, like Apache, and I'm currently on a shared account where Apache is not available, will the WEB host change this according to my requirements? I suppose I'll have to ask.

It would probably mean the Host moving your account from a shared windows server to a shared Linux server.  While you can run Apache in Windows its quite rare for a host to run both IIS and Apache on the same box for separate clients.

Confused. Some of these installers are based on InstallShield. I believe you have to have local access to the server machine in order to run the installer. Am I wrong?

No you are correct – to run an installer you would need root access or ask you provider to install it for you.

Thanks a bundle!

I'm going to retry installing MediaWiki and see if I can get past that and move on to experimenting with getting a problem tracking package installed.

All this is just for experimentation at this point.

Ok looking at MediaWiki’s requirements make sure you are going to need atleast:

PHP4.3 and MySQL 3.23, since you are on a Window shared hosting I doubt you have either installed you may be out of luck.  

What is the Problem tracking software you are using?

If it comes down to you just want to have a look and play about I can setup the apps on my servers for you and give you access.

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As a shameless plug, looking on the Cpanel of my site, there are auto-installers for:

http://phpwiki.sourceforge.net/

http://www.tikiwiki.org/tiki-forums.php [Tiki Wiki]

And it runs off a Linux/Apache server so you can put MediaWiki etc there as well.

If it runs off InstallShield, it'll be no problem to ask the guy to install it for you.

There's also a php support ticket auto-installer along with heaps of other stuff there - very good CPanel.

As for CHModding, it's just a case of right clicking on an FTP program :P Sounds more complicated than it is. If you're interested, I can look into further details with the hosting company I'm with. [specifically price, all your other needs are fairly well covered]

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Guest RKSL-Rock
As a shameless plug, looking on the Cpanel of my site, there are auto-installers for:

http://phpwiki.sourceforge.net/

http://www.tikiwiki.org/tiki-forums.php [Tiki Wiki]

And it runs off a Linux/Apache server so you can put MediaWiki etc there as well.

If it runs off InstallShield, it'll be no problem to ask the guy to install it for you.

There's also a php support ticket auto-installer along with heaps of other stuff there - very good CPanel.

As for CHModding, it's just a case of right clicking on an FTP program :P Sounds more complicated than it is. If you're interested, I can look into further details with the hosting company I'm with. [specifically price, all your other needs are fairly well covered]

It sounds like you are are using a Plesk 7.5 Control Panel if those are pre installed.

Unfortunately Avon would have the same issues with those as with Wikimedia, ie not having a suitable database available.

As for Installshield, it wont run on a Linux/Unix box as its a Windows only applet.

@Avon - ive just installed WikiMedia on a subdomain if you want to have a look at it - i can pm you the passwords etc.

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Guest RKSL-Rock
It be this one: http://www.cpanel.net/

And of course, InstallShield - d'oh. No Linux installers?

I didnt reallise that CPanel had done the preinstalled route i thought it was only Plesk!

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I heard bugzilla could be used to track IT support stuff but do'nt take my word for it.

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RockofSL, the app I tried installing was TTX. My problem was that when I filled in the first system setup screen, it looped back to prompting me for my admin password, which I had previously defined. This loop went on ad-infinitum and I could proceed no further.

Mr. Cheese, yes, but we would have to move to a Linux server. That's always a possibility but then we have the oppossite problem with many windows based problem tracking products.

EiZei, yes I looked at Bugzilla. Certainly needs Linux and then possibly even more.

In the meantime, our web hosting company is reviewing our needs and will make several suggestions from experience. I'll post them back here when I receive them.

Thanks.

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1) Wiki :

MediaWiki is by far the most robust solution from the client's perspective, but from an admin's pov it's anarchy. It's next to impossible to compartmentalize data for internal or external group access control. That's a political decision made by the developers, and it's systemic throughout the code. Make sure you know exactly what your usage requirements are before you commit content.

2) Bug trackers :

I've been looking at MySQL's Eventum for some bug tracking projects, but the organization structure is a bit narrow-minded. TikiWiki's trackers are fairly nice as well, but it requires TikiWiki's clunky backend. Bugzilla is the 900 pound gorilla of OSS bug trackers, but the fine print says that some perl libs are required which are not common on a lot of generic webhosts. Additionally, the interface pages by default are 'scary' to the end users. They can be cleaned up - gentoo's are pretty nice imho - but that requires diving into the perl page templates.

3) Platform :

You can get Apache and MySQL and Perl and PHP on Windows. If the package is coded properly, there should only be a couple places where you'd have to verify that windows paths were used instead of *nix paths. However, the various developers reitterate that that is 'unsupported' and there may be an obscure bit of code some where or some gremlin that may choke on a windows path or system call or something. So the only predictablely reliable platform for developer reasons - not architechure - is LAMP/P.

4) Hosting :

You need to get a good idea what your system load is going to be like. Since this is a business project, you don't want to run the risk of setting up a presence, only to have it shutoff 2/3's of the way through the month for bandwidth overage or worse resource over utilization.

File I/O, DB I/O, dynamic page generation, etc, all have CPU and memory 'costs'. The generic virtual hosting providers will normally give you tools to monitor your bandwidth, disk space, and access logging, but you normally don't get tools to log CPU and RAM usage, although they can come back and ding you for it, and it varies depending on backend server you share.

If you have a high-traffic site, or have a business requirement to constantly provide large data files, then the system loads there may require a full dedicatd server long before your storage space requirements become an issue.

5) Fine print :

* MySQL is not free for commercial usage.

* If you go for a dedicated server, a control panel (cPanel, plesk) is extra - per month.

* Data backups?

* Redundant connections?

* Acoount syncronization?

This last bit is a huge hassle in business projects. So you've got forums, now you want a wiki, and you want a bug tracker, and this and that. Problem is that no one package does an adequate job of it. What's required is a unified auth system like LDAP, but you're not going to get that on a shared host, and that's a whole nother management boondoggle as well.

And while you're at it, some shared hosts do not reliablely enforce SMTP authentication, leaving them open to spam abuse.

I assume that your system is for a local customer, the vast majority of software packages still are not reliablely designed for RTL and full Unicode processing. That would exacerbate the difficulties if you plan on using Hebrew content.

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