I.R.A Fired on british paras 1st on bloody sunday

[madmike 0]

What else do you want the ability to live forever??

The police and army are doing an exelent job over there, if it wernt for them the Catholics would all be dead

The police force are certianly not biased, people always expect them to do super human stuff.

There will always be this problem in NI and all that I can think of that would work would be mixed schools and housing, but then that could make things worse

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (madmike @ Jan. 19 2002,23:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What else do you want the ability to live forever??

The police and army are doing an exelent job over there, if it wernt for them the Catholics would all be dead

The police force are certianly not biased, people always expect them to do super human stuff.

There will always be this problem in NI and all that I can think of that would work would be mixed schools and housing, but then that could make things worse <span id='postcolor'>

You say the police and army ARE doing an excellent job. I agree. They ARE.

But they WEREN'T 30 years ago. Hell, they weren't doing that great a job 10 years ago. That is where this all comes from. Go look it up in a (non-British) history book.

Here, take a look at this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi....046.stm

Basically, a Northern Irish civil rights lawyer was murdered 10 odd years ago, and overwhelmingly strong evidence is appearing suggesting that the RUC urged UDA/UFF members to murder him.

I am guessing that you are from mainland Britain, and I will confess I am a Dubliner myself... to the outsider the truth might appear to be somewhere between our opinions, but I really feel that you are failing to recognise the problems that existed in the north over the last 30 years.

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What else do you want the ability to live forever??

The police and army are doing an exelent job over there, if it wernt for them the Catholics would all be dead

The police force are certianly not biased, people always expect them to do super human stuff.

There will always be this problem in NI and all that I can think of that would work would be mixed schools and housing, but then that could make things worse <span id='postcolor'>

Even if things are getting better, one really shouldn't believe that the paras and Royal Ulster Constabulary did a good job. Thats disgusting! If you were a catholic - innocent or not - you were likely to get a bullet through your head or be tortured. The RUC and the Paras had a "shoot to kill policy" - ecpecially during the seventies. All parties have a bloodstained history.

But I do think you are right about more catholics having a harder time without the RUC. Especialy during the last years before the peace proces started, but only because the protestant terrorgroups also started to fight the RUC. Everyone started to fight everyone - not everyone against the catholics.

What you said about mixed schools and housing is very interesting indeed. Historically, during times of troubles the inhabitants of Belfast seem to move to segregated areas for protection and security. It's a paradox that these areas in effect became the least safe place to be. Actually, the safest area to live is as close to the "border zone" as possible. The reason why? Because the terror has a much more terrifying effect when you hit them at their own doorstep.

You should all read a very good book about this. It's called

"Formations of Violence : The Narrative of the Body and Political Terror in Northern Ireland", by Allan Feldman.

It's a difficult book to get through, but it's worth it. For those of you that "enjoy" vivid descriptions of violence this book is a must! I actually had to put it aside for a while before I could continue. The violence is that bad!!

Get it here:

http://www.amazon.com/exec....0612136

[madmike 0]

But you need to understand that the Britsh army and the RUC were having thier men murdered everyday( average 9+ per week), they needed to stop this and by breaking the rules they have.

I read the article on the Lawyer and most of the information will never be released to the public.

I would say that the SAS and MI5 would have been watching him for months, maybe even years and built up enough info agianst him.

The army were not fighting a conventional army so the rules ans laws of war dont apply.

I feel that there would have been a reason to justify this but I will never know

[ChickenHawk 0]

Im english and I never fully understood all the bs that went on in Northern Ireland and I dont really care. It seems to me that people are arguing over land and religious shy&. Not very holy imho. Anyways, its prolly the same as Israel, why the hell cant they all get along, look at each other they are all freekin human. Sometimes I wonder if they just like voilence. I remember watching the news once and the police were sent in to stop the riots, it turned out that both groups both started on the police.. I say nuke em to hell I dont care about Northern Ireland I dont know why were are there its a pos place if they wana kill each other then let them do it..

[PHY_Hawkeye 0]

Let me Say this; many of you here are focusing on what happened in the past, that's what has kept this Country in the position it is for so long. Small groups of extreamists can't forgive, forget, and move on. The majority of people here are sick of all this crap and just want to try and get some normality around here. Both sides have done wrong, now both sides need to work together and try to repair the damage that has ripped this country appart.

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PHY_Hawkeye @ Jan. 20 2002,03:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Let me Say this; many of you here are focusing on what happened in the past, that's what has kept this Country in the position it is for so long. Small groups of extreamists can't forgive, forget, and move on. The majority of people here are sick of all this crap and just want to try and get some normality around here. Both sides have done wrong, now both sides need to work together and try to repair the damage that has ripped this country appart.<span id='postcolor'>

I agree, but people always draw upon their experience (history) and their current situation when planning for the future. I still think the peace process is going to succed.

[red oct 2]

i fail to understand the concept that if a large group of rioters are throwing bricks, bottles, rocks, and other blunt but still very dangerous projectiles that the police or army is just suppose to stand there and take the abuse. we all would like to have a life were everybody gets along however i dont see that happening, in my opinion they had every right to open fire if i was in that mess i wouldnt want to be killed by a mob of rioters. its not like soldiers take pride in killing those protesters nor the with any other country for that matter. the bottom line is that there will always be violence its what all animals do, you dont honestly think that we didnt become who we were today with out slaughtering millions of people?

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Red Oct @ Jan. 20 2002,03:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">i fail to understand the concept that if a large group of rioters are throwing bricks, bottles, rocks, and other blunt but still very dangerous projectiles that the police or army is just suppose to stand there and take the abuse. we all would like to have a life were everybody gets along however i dont see that happening, in my opinion they had every right to open fire if i was in that mess i wouldnt want to be killed by a mob of rioters. its not like soldiers take pride in killing those protesters nor the with any other country for that matter. the bottom line is that there will always be violence its what all animals do, you dont honestly think that we didnt become who we were today with out slaughtering millions of people?<span id='postcolor'>

I see......you'r saying that the bloody sunday incident is......well, acceptable?

[foxer 0]

This another israel thing ?

[red oct 2]

which bloody sunday are you talking about? im thinking of the one that took place in russia during the rule Czar Nicoles and if your talking about a different one describe to me what happened

[MP 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (madmike @ Jan. 19 2002,23:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But you need to understand that the Britsh army and the RUC were having thier men murdered everyday( average 9+ per week), they needed to stop this and by breaking the rules they have.

I read the article on the Lawyer and most of the information will never be released to the public.

I would say that the SAS and MI5 would have been watching him for months, maybe even years and built up enough info agianst him.

The army were not fighting a conventional army so the rules ans laws of war dont apply.

I feel that there would have been a reason to justify this but I will never know<span id='postcolor'>

That still says nothing about what happened 30 years ago... Them paras murdered innocent and I stress the word UNARMED catholic protester's. Deadly force is the LAST resort in any situation. You NEVER shoot unarmed people (even if they are throwing petrol bomb's). Deadly force will only be autorized if the protestors are fireing weapon's (gun's not petrol bomb's).

If the protestors did have weapon's back then, we would'nt be having the conversation. But it turn's out they did not. In my opinion the were shot dead in cold blood because they were Catholic's.

Somebody said above that "there is not alot of IRA activity up there these day's". Agreed! because they showed the ultimate sign of good faith by decomishoning their weapon's. And what about the UDA, UFF, UDF??? Naa... not a peep out of them. Since the IRA are no longer showing a "Strong" presence in NI then who is to blame??? I think you all know...

This new group that call themselves the "Red Hand of Ulster" is the crowd that killed that Catholic postman up there a week or 3 ago, and they are/were stoping the Catholic school children from getting to school. The IRA's decomison was the first step to peace... now it's the prodestant's turn...

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Red Oct @ Jan. 20 2002,04:07)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">which bloody sunday are you talking about? im thinking of the one that took place in russia during the rule Czar Nicoles and if your talking about a different one describe to me what happened<span id='postcolor'>

I'm talking about Northern Ireland!

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (MP @ Jan. 20 2002,04:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But you need to understand that the Britsh army and the RUC were having thier men murdered everyday( average 9+ per week), they needed to stop this and by breaking the rules they have.

I read the article on the Lawyer and most of the information will never be released to the public.

I would say that the SAS and MI5 would have been watching him for months, maybe even years and built up enough info agianst him.

The army were not fighting a conventional army so the rules ans laws of war dont apply.

I feel that there would have been a reason to justify this but I will never know<span id='postcolor'>

That still says nothing about what happened 30 years ago... Them paras murdered innocent and I stress the word UNARMED catholic protester's. Deadly force is the LAST resort in any situation. You NEVER shoot unarmed people (even if they are throwing petrol bomb's). Deadly force will only be autorized if the protestors are fireing weapon's (gun's not petrol bomb's).

If the protestors did have weapon's back then, we would'nt be having the conversation. But it turn's out they did not. In my opinion the were shot dead in cold blood because they were Catholic's.

Somebody said above that "there is not alot of IRA activity up there these day's". Agreed! because they showed the ultimate sign of good faith by decomishoning their weapon's. And what about the UDA, UFF, UDF??? Naa... not a peep out of them. Since the IRA are no longer showing a "Strong" presence in NI then who is to blame??? I think you all know...

This new group that call themselves the "Red Hand of Ulster" is the crowd that killed that Catholic postman up there a week or 3 ago, and they are/were stoping the Catholic school children from getting to school. The IRA's decomison was the first step to peace... now it's the prodestant's turn...<span id='postcolor'>

100% right!

[el Gringo Loco 1]

Something different now:

I've read in a dutch opinion magazine that the suicides in NI are rocketing up like mad. Youth say they have no future anymore now the troubles have ceased. In the past, the way that the youth chose was pretty clear. You left school at an early age and joined one of the military faction inside NI, be it the IRA or UVF, UDF etc. Nowadays most of the youths have brothers or fathers who've fought for what they believed was right and maybe died for it. In their eyes they're the heroes and will never be forgotten while the younger generations will mean nothing according to themselves. Many of them choose to commit suicide because of this. In 2001 there were some 1400 suicide attempts compared to an average of 200 when the troubles still existed. Sad but true. Every progress also has a backside. Also because almost every NI criminal (they call themselves political prisoners) was released from prison. Thereby overflooding the labour market and dramatically increasing the unemployed figures.

Yes the real troubles have gone for now, but the future certainly doesn't look bright in NI

[madmike 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">That still says nothing about what happened 30 years ago... Them paras murdered innocent and I stress the word UNARMED catholic protester's. Deadly force is the LAST resort in any situation. You NEVER shoot unarmed people (even if they are throwing petrol bomb's). Deadly force will only be autorized if the protestors are fireing weapon's (gun's not petrol bomb's).

If the protestors did have weapon's back then, we would'nt be having the conversation. But it turn's out they did not. In my opinion the were shot dead in cold blood because they were Catholic's.

Somebody said above that "there is not alot of IRA activity up there these day's". Agreed! because they showed the ultimate sign of good faith by decomishoning their weapon's. And what about the UDA, UFF, UDF??? Naa... not a peep out of them. Since the IRA are no longer showing a "Strong" presence in NI then who is to blame??? I think you all know...

This new group that call themselves the "Red Hand of Ulster" is the crowd that killed that Catholic postman up there a week or 3 ago, and they are/were stoping the Catholic school children from getting to school. The IRA's decomison was the first step to peace... now it's the prodestant's turn...<span id='postcolor'>

Sorry but I disagree with that, most of the protesters were armed, some with firearms but most had acid bombs which are far worse than petrol bombs. acid bombs soke throught clothing to get the the skin which slowly melts, if any of this is swollowed the person would die, if it goes into the eyes it blinds them for life.

Bricks can kill easiy.

Nail bombs are like grenades

The reason why I hate rioters so much is because they come along to spoil the peaceful demo and turn it into madness.

As part of a college course I am doin we work closely with the police and other public services.

Before we went to have a pretend riot with the police they showed us a vidio of some riots.

The first clip was a police horse that was attacked by animal rights protesters with a pole, the legs of the horse were broken and it fell to the floor to be stabed to death.

The female police officer that was riding it fell to the floor to get punched and kicked until she was rescued by another police officer.

Another clip was a policeman in full riot kit, he gets hit by a spade in the face by a human rights protester, he was left brain damaged and disabled.

Theres alot more I could go on about.

I dont believe the rioters that were left when the Paras openedfire were demostraters, they were troublemakers and deserved what they got

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ChickenHawk @ Jan. 20 2002,03:05)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Im english and I never fully understood all the bs that went on in Northern Ireland and I dont really care. It seems to me that people are arguing over land and religious shy&. Not very holy imho. Anyways, its prolly the same as Israel, why the hell cant they all get along, look at each other they are all freekin human. Sometimes I wonder if they just like voilence. I remember watching the news once and the police were sent in to stop the riots, it turned out that both groups both started on the police.. I say nuke em to hell I dont care about Northern Ireland I dont know why were are there its a pos place if they wana kill each other then let them do it..<span id='postcolor'>

Thank you for your wonderfully informed post. We are all the more enlightened for reading it.

If you confess to know nothing about it, then call the place a piece of shit and deduce that it should be nuked, why on earth did you bother to post your opinion in the first place?

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (madmike @ Jan. 20 2002,12:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Sorry but I disagree with that, most of the protesters were armed, some with firearms but most had acid bombs which are far worse than petrol bombs. acid bombs soke throught clothing to get the the skin which slowly melts, if any of this is swollowed the person would die, if it goes into the eyes it blinds them for life.

Bricks can kill easiy.

Nail bombs are like grenades

<snipped irrelevant stuff>

Theres alot more I could go on about.

I dont believe the rioters that were left when the Paras openedfire were demostraters, they were troublemakers and deserved what they got<span id='postcolor'>

You continue to change the subject and miss the point. The Widgery report which was released in 1972 was hugely flawed and factually inaccurate... and I think this is what you are basing your opinions on. I'm going to assume you weren't actually there, if even alive when it happened... so do try to get 2 sides to any account of what happened.

go, read this, think:

http://www.irlgov.ie/taoiseach/bsundayreport/conclusions.htm

Pretty much, the soldiers got off the bus and opened fire within a minute or so. There were unarmed civilians found with bullet wounds in their backs. Explain how this happened, if it was only the violent protesters who ended up getting shot.

[ChickenHawk 0]

If you confess to know nothing about it, then call the place a piece of shit and deduce that it should be nuked, why on earth did you bother to post your opinion in the first place?

Because I'm tierd of people arguing and killing each other other pathetic reasons.

[Dangus 0]

That is rediculous. You admit you don't even know, or care about the reasons, but then you say that the reasons are pathetic? You can state all you want about the situation, but you clearly don't know a lot about it, or care to. It's well within your rights to post totally senseless and pointless words but why do it?

[madmike 0]

I like threads like this where the posts are valid and contain reasoning.</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">go, read this, think:

http://www.irlgov.ie/taoiseach/bsundayreport/conclusions.htm

Pretty much, the soldiers got off the bus and opened fire within a minute or so. There were unarmed civilians found with bullet wounds in their backs. Explain how this happened, if it was only the violent protesters who ended up getting shot.<span id='postcolor'>

I would imagine that they were doing something wrong, every member of the armed forces are given info on what they can and cant do, this is called the rules of engagement.

The law states that if a person is about to throw or is aiming a weapon the soldier is fully within the law to shoot, however if the "missile" has beeen thrown and the offender vis running away then shooting him is not justified.

I realy dont know the exact detail of what happened and the only people who do are those that were there, but they have two different stories of the event.

I am not going to watch the program on TV because I feel it will be biased.

I imagine that it will be them inocently marching down the road and then getting attacked by the army which is fantasy

I would also like to add that the catholics are no longer causing all the riots.

[Longinius 1]

You can still watch a program even if its biased. There is always some element of truth. And if not, well, you can atleast say you saw it and it was biased and flawed.

It is always wront to shoot innocent people. Doubely so if the shotters are trained government representatives, as in this case. I wasn't there myself but from what I can deduce the people killed had no ranged weapons (pistols, rifles, carbines), or atleast, none were found. So, they could have had rocks, sticks and canister bombs. This still does not give the government right to shoot and KILL them.

Someone also posted that violent demonstrators sometimes infiltrate the ranks of demonstrations and cause violent clashes. This is very true and an even bigger reason for the cops / soldiers not to fire. Because they will only hit innocent people, since that is one of the "black blocks" goals in such actions.

Which ever way you turn it, Bloody Sunday was a terrible thing, it could have been avoided. They should not have opened fire the way they did.

[madmike 0]

The army were fired apon first form the direction of some flats, the army returned fire to that area and shot people who they believe were shooting, some civilians were caught in the crosssfire.

The march was ilegal anyway so those demosraters had allready broken the law which is there to avoide this.

Also is there any solid evidence that says any inoccent people were shot? the only evidence is what people say and there are hundreds of different stories.

Aparantly some that were shot did have acid bombs, petrol bombs and one man was known to have been shot whilst aiming a pistol

[Hilandor 1]

For those interested a film/documentary is on Sunday Night at 10.00 pm on ITV called Bloody Sunday. (for those in UK )

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (madmike @ Jan. 20 2002,21:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

The army were fired apon first form the direction of some flats, the army returned fire to that area and shot people who they believe were shooting, some civilians were caught in the crosssfire.

<span id='postcolor'>

This really looks like an invented incident to excuse the action of the paras!