Microsoft Windows Vista

[mattxr 9]

microsoft windows vista

I think its a new operating system

Beta 1 is availble..

[i searched but could not find]

[Colossus 2]

I think its a new operating system

And it's the same OS which was codenamed "Longhorn"

But I don't get why they will have 7 version of Vista, thats a bit weird.

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And I hear that they will implant a new system against sound and video copies which in worst case can turn off your monitor/screen.

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[Tovarish 0]

And I hear that they will implant a new system against sound and video copies which in worst case can turn off your monitor/screen.

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Somehow I get a feeling that dual-boot machines with both Linux and Windows will become more popular.

[crashdome 3]

From an IT and application programmer's perspective, I can't wait for it. From a home user, it just means more $$$ and more time spent trying to find drivers, file viewers, etc....

It looks very very Mac though. You have to admit.

[EiZei 0]

But I don't get why they will have 7 version of Vista, thats a bit weird.

Nine if you count some "special" european editions.

They didn't have time to implement WinFS or MSH properly yet it's loaded with all sorts of digital restrictions management crap, typical MS.

[chipper 0]

Someone has a beta?

[EiZei 0]

Seems like some 3rd party shell replacement. I dont think even microsoft would have the guts to rip off the mac sidebar.

[Panda-PL- 0]

The best thing is that M$ pronounced that OpenGL will no longer be updated (they claim it is outdated) and GFX will be widely based on new DX10 (or next versions).

The basic goal is to make game conversion to other OS impossible or too expensive. Conversion from OGL is easy and cheap - they use automated compilers for most part, while DX won't give You a chance.

Another thing is that old Windows games might not run anymore, however You are wellcomed to buy Xbox games at 2-3x the price as Vista will run them.

Also the hardware specs they give... aren't they a bit too low?

[der bastler 0]

@ Sep. 23 2005,09:12)]The best thing is that M$ pronounced that OpenGL will no longer be updated (they claim it is outdated) and GFX will be widely based on new DX10 (or next versions).

The worst: The mass of users will follow them. Say hello to DRM. Get new mutilated official standards.

[Guest]

@ Sep. 23 2005,09:12)]The best thing is that M$ pronounced that OpenGL will no longer be updated (they claim it is outdated) and GFX will be widely based on new DX10 (or next versions).

The basic goal is to make game conversion to other OS impossible or too expensive. Conversion from OGL is easy and cheap - they use automated compilers for most part, while DX won't give You a chance.

Another thing is that old Windows games might not run anymore, however You are wellcomed to buy Xbox games at 2-3x the price as Vista will run them.

Also the hardware specs they give... aren't they a bit too low?

Sure...find me a link to where MS say OpenGL is outdated and will no longer be updated. Please, I'd love to see it.

Especially since MS don't update OpenGL...there's a huge committee that does that, with representives from all the large Hard/Software manufactures in the world. Including MS (although they were nearly thrown out over a decade ago, but that's another story ).

What you are refering to is Vista Technical BETA not supporting OpenGL 1.5 or higher without switching off everything that isn't running in fullscreen. There's been LOADS of rumours/arguements/flamewars about this already all over the net, but to sum it up:

- The Beta doesn't support OpenGL 1.5+ unless in fullscreen.

- Who knows whether further versions will (MS haven't released anything about this yet).

- MS said Windows2000 wouldn't have native OpenGL support. Eventually it did.

I'm just going to wait and see....and leave the flamewars to others. But at least get your facts straight first.

[EiZei 0]

@ Sep. 23 2005,10:12)]Another thing is that old Windows games might not run anymore, however You are wellcomed to buy Xbox games at 2-3x the price as Vista will run them.

Also the hardware specs they give... aren't they a bit too low?

Being a XBOX owner I can tell you that at most it's games are 1.5x expensive, usually much less.

And as for hardware specs.. I suggest you go and look up XP's requirements.

Also killing opengl support would also kill lot of backward compatibility. HL1 and quakes would probably be most prominent examples. I suppose microsoft is just trying to scare developers into making directx games only.

Quote[/b] ]

Sure...find me a link to where MS say OpenGL is outdated and will no longer be updated. Please, I'd love to see it.

MS is'nt saying so but Nvidia, ATI and 3dlabs are. Windows vista wont support it out of box, it will interfere with Aero Glass and will be layered on top of directx causing an enormous performance drop.

So, windows vista will get you a fuckload of DRM and break backwards compatibility just because microsoft does'nt like competition. Is there actually any reason beyond "ooh shiny" to buy this crap?

[der bastler 0]

What you are refering to is Vista Technical BETA not supporting OpenGL 1.5 or higher without switching off everything that isn't running in fullscreen. There's been LOADS of rumours/arguements/flamewars about this already all over the net, but to sum it up:

- The Beta doesn't support OpenGL 1.5+ unless in fullscreen.

- Who knows whether further versions will (MS haven't released anything about this yet).

- MS said Windows2000 wouldn't have native OpenGL support. Eventually it did.

This is discussed here:

http://www.opengl.org/discuss....=000001

In barthold's reply one will find some explanations and following presentation: http://download.microsoft.com/downloa....C05.ppt

Smart move, just hide OpenGL behind some layers to make access difficult and to slow it down.

[der bastler 0]

So, windows vista will get you a fuckload of DRM and break backwards compatibility just because microsoft does'nt like competition. Is there actually any reason beyond "ooh shiny" to buy this crap?

It is very hard to buy computers/notebooks without this crap. Microsoft tax, you see...

I'm still looking for a decent subnotebook without any OS, just like the ASUS I bought some years ago...

[JdB 151]

Is there actually any reason beyond "ooh shiny" to buy this crap?

Vista is basically Windows XP but with a trainload of restrictions in terms of DRM. Also if you want a shiny look to your desktop, then Windowsblinds or Aston Shell Replacement are far cheaper.

I was already planning on putting Linux on my next pc, this kind of crap has put even more logic into that decision.

[Panda-PL- 0]

Being a XBOX owner I can tell you that at most it's games are 1.5x expensive, usually much less.

Phh. But You propably live in the US.

In Poland OFP Platinium now costs 59zl. ( ~17$ ) while Xbox OFP costs 150-200zl.

Hardly anyone in Poland owns Xbox, while it is quite popular in the US, so the difference in price of games is greater.

[EiZei 0]

@ Sep. 23 2005,16:06)]

Being a XBOX owner I can tell you that at most it's games are 1.5x expensive, usually much less.

Phh. But You propably live in the US.

In Poland OFP Platinium now costs 59zl. ( ~17$ ) while Xbox OFP costs 150-200zl.

Hardly anyone in Poland owns Xbox, while it is quite popular in the US, so the difference in price of games is greater.

You are comparing games that are to be released 4.5 years apart you know.

And no, I do not live in the US.

[Guest]

Also killing opengl support would also kill lot of backward compatibility. HL1 and quakes would probably be most prominent examples. I suppose microsoft is just trying to scare developers into making directx games only.

Quote[/b] ]

Sure...find me a link to where MS say OpenGL is outdated and will no longer be updated. Please, I'd love to see it.

MS is'nt saying so but Nvidia, ATI and 3dlabs are. Windows vista wont support it out of box, it will interfere with Aero Glass and will be layered on top of directx causing an enormous performance drop.

So, windows vista will get you a fuckload of DRM and break backwards compatibility just because microsoft does'nt like competition. Is there actually any reason beyond "ooh shiny" to buy this crap?

Again, there will be (at this stage) only support for OpenGL 1.4. According to the PPT (thx for the link BTW ) they are writing support for an "Advanced" version of their own. Which is probably doing the layer thing. Not the same however as NO support.

But yes, it's lame. And no, I can't see myself upgrading either.

[crashdome 3]

From what I understand, there is a "Classic Mode" which is user-selectable to drop any 3d rendering of the UI.

Keep in mind, all this non-OpenGL stuff only relates to the UI.. not games or anything like that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Vista#Classic_.28Windows_2000.29

[crashdome 3]

Someone has a beta?

I actually have the Beta of Longhorn before the release of the official name. I was an MSDN Subscriber up until about May this year. I haven't tried it though... I don't have the resources or time. Perhaps this week I might find a machine at work in which I can install it.

I also didn't try it because Longhorn betas didn't contain the 3D user-interface (Aero). From what I've gotten in feedback from other testers is actually a bunch of positives... BUT that is all based on application performance and development.. not game use.

I expect it will receive as much criticism as XP did.. "I'm not upgrading from Win 98 because XP sucks.. blah blah blah". In reality, 2 years later you will be forced to upgrade anyway if you continue to use Windows. All those people that didn't upgrade to XP simply didn't like the change in organization and methods to perform configurations. They just refused to educate themselves. All-in-all XP had for more flexibility and stability than 98... I expect the same applies in this case. Yes it will be differnet, yes you will have to re-think your Windows operating methods, and yes you will eventually have to learn to use it or you will be stuck with an out-dated and un-supported OS (just like any OS upgrade from Mac or Linux).

*Edit* apologies for the two posts.

[Guest]

From what I understand, there is a "Classic Mode" which is user-selectable to drop any 3d rendering of the UI.

Keep in mind, all this non-OpenGL stuff only relates to the UI.. not games or anything like that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Vista#Classic_.28Windows_2000.29

Yup. So for instance any 3D program such as Oxygen that uses OpenGL won't be able to run anything above OpenGL 1.4, since they don't run in fullscreen. Goodbye vertex shading...if the programs will run at all!

Have a look at openGL.org, cgtalk etc and see if people are happy about this

[crashdome 3]

From what I understand, there is a "Classic Mode" which is user-selectable to drop any 3d rendering of the UI.

Keep in mind, all this non-OpenGL stuff only relates to the UI.. not games or anything like that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Vista#Classic_.28Windows_2000.29

Yup. So for instance any 3D program such as Oxygen that uses OpenGL won't be able to run anything above OpenGL 1.4, since they don't run in fullscreen. Goodbye vertex shading...if the programs will run at all!

Have a look at openGL.org, cgtalk etc and see if people are happy about this  

Not true.

If you run the GUI in classic mode there is no 'layering' over DirectX. There is no hardware acceleration of the desktop, but you have full OpenGL functionality.

Read up more and not just biased sites. (Not to sound elitist.. I am merely recommending checking newsgroups or something a little less one-sided)

*Edit* I'll elaborate:

Windows Vista can only run one native language to the GPU if using Aero.. I am not a graphics guy, so I can't tell you why or how, but I know it isn't simply because "they want to". As a result, they have to choose one language and have chosen their own DirectX language. Something anyone would do also if I ran a company selling OS software. In order to use OpenGL in such a mode they have to layer it over the DirectX API. They have chosen to support up to only OpenGL 1.4 because trying to follow OpenGL while manufacturing your own language would be very costly. By switching to 'classic' mode you eliminate the dictatorship over the GPU and can therefore run any language to the GPU you wish. From what I hear, most people will run in 'classic' mode anyway since a 3D interface will probably not catch on too quickly. By the time it does, perhaps there will be better implementation of it.

[Panda-PL- 0]

Will dos programs or programs using dos run under Vista.

They officially should run under XP, however XP quite often refuses to run them, or runs them only once and then says it will no more ... I had to say goodbye to Driver, GGX, and some other cool games when I switched to XP.

Not to mention I couldn't run some old install program, as it used dos

(no, the win98/NT simulation mode does not change a thing)

So will I be able to play Driver if I'll decide to switch to Vista?

[EiZei 0]

@ Sep. 28 2005,11:11)]Will dos programs or programs using dos run under Vista.

They officially should run under XP, however XP quite often refuses to run them, or runs them only once and then says it will no more ... I had to say goodbye to Driver, GGX, and some other cool games when I switched to XP.

Not to mention I couldn't run some old install program, as it used dos

(no, the win98/NT simulation mode does not change a thing)

So will I be able to play Driver if I'll decide to switch to Vista?

Support for 16bit programs (DOS, windows 3.1x) were killed in the 64bit edition of windows XP.

Seriously, get dosbox, will save you a lot of headache.

Quote[/b] ]

*Edit* I'll elaborate:

Windows Vista can only run one native language to the GPU if using Aero.. I am not a graphics guy, so I can't tell you why or how, but I know it isn't simply because "they want to". As a result, they have to choose one language and have chosen their own DirectX language. Something anyone would do also if I ran a company selling OS software. In order to use OpenGL in such a mode they have to layer it over the DirectX API. They have chosen to support up to only OpenGL 1.4 because trying to follow OpenGL while manufacturing your own language would be very costly. By switching to 'classic' mode you eliminate the dictatorship over the GPU and can therefore run any language to the GPU you wish. From what I hear, most people will run in 'classic' mode anyway since a 3D interface will probably not catch on too quickly. By the time it does, perhaps there will be better implementation of it.

Yes, because we know how keen microsoft is on implementing new features for free and fixing anything but critical security bugs.

[Baphomet 0]

Quote[/b] ]Being a XBOX owner I can tell you that at most it's games are 1.5x expensive, usually much less.

The monetary cost doesn't matter. It's pretty evident that microsoft is trying to shift the gaming aspect of the PC over to their fucking shitbox.

Playing games that would normally be played on the pc with a console is tantamount to a substandard experience.

It's disgusting.

I always said I was a few pcs away from not really bearing much interest in buying them anymore because of shit like this. It may be happening sooner than I thought.

I heard that the system requirements for Vista were going to ridiculously high, because of some vector based UI...

Is that a rumor or what? I can't imagine that will have any positive impact on the gaming side of things.

[EiZei 0]

Quote[/b] ]Being a XBOX owner I can tell you that at most it's games are 1.5x expensive, usually much less.

The monetary cost doesn't matter. It's pretty evident that microsoft is trying to shift the gaming aspect of the PC over to their fucking shitbox.

More like rats jumping a sinking ship. Microsoft is seeing what is happening to pc gaming and wants a piece of the pie before Sony becomes a gaming hardware monopoly.