What happened in Bosnia 1993?

[the_shadow 0]

I found a small text on another forum (a swedish one, and luckily i found a translation)

this is a story about what happened in and around the small village of Stupni Do in bosnia oct 22 1993.

this text is a eye wittnes report of what happened there seen from the perspektive of a swedish HMG gunner during the first swedish UN battalion in Bosnia.

the text is very sad and i couldnt keep my tears away when i read this, so i felt i had to post it here so that you can read for yourself what happened and so that ppl wont forget about it.

Article by Unicorn

Translation by J-Star and Ace

In the fall of 1993 I was serving as a heavy machinegunner at Nordbat 2, Guard & Escort platoon. By the end of september our SISU and a platoon from 10th mech inf company were sent urgently as reinforcements to the 8th mech inf company area of responsibility in Vares. This was because several of the battalion's armored vehicles had been involved in clashes with units of the HVO. The 8th coy had also been subjected to ambushes.

The mood in Vares was nasty and very threatening. No civilians what-so-ever were moving outdoors and the entire time we were close, too close, to losing control of the situation. If we ever had any control that is. We were a few hundred Swedes against an entire Croatian brigade.

Houses were burning here and there in Vares and its surroundings, but from one of the battalion observation posts one could see the light of a fire that from the looks of it was more serious. It seemed as if an entire village was in flames. However, Croatian forces were blocking the access routes and refused to let anyone near the village.

Units from the Swedish battalion had repeatedly been, and still were, subjected to ambushes by "unknown" soldiers. Sometimes they shot back. The whole situation was like walking a thin line. Most of the SISU-vehicles had one or more tires that had been scavenged from less prioritized vehicles. The tires had been blown out and shot at such a pace that no more spares were available. Instead there were now a couple of trucks without wheels put up on blocks in the camp.

The mood between the Croatian forces and the Swedish battalion was as mentioned not the best. Still though the hostilities were not official. Going into the village on the other hand would have meant an open confrontation with the HVO. The Swedish battalion was a few hundred men, and reinforcements were not available in the foreseeable future. Against them, they would have gotten the entire Croatian Bobovac Brigade.

A refugee managed to reach the Nordbat camp and reported that the people in the burning village had been put through terrible atrocities. The village's name was Stupni Do. Rumours had it that some forty villagers had escaped and were hiding in the woods some kilometres from the village, in the middle of the frontline. They were probably trying to reach the Bosnian side of the front.

Together with battalion commander Ulf Henricsson and a few members of his staff we left in our SISU in an attempt to find the refugees. It was dark, houses were burning around us, and we left for the frontline. A couple of times we negotiated our way through checkpoints controlled by HVO, the Bosnian-Croatian army.

We searched with night vision goggles but couldn't find the refugees. We thought we had found their location - a creepy cemetery on the steep hillside. We saw no one and could do nothing alone in the darkness, so we returned to the camp for a couple of hours of sleep.

At the camp all available personnel were in entrenchments. The 8th coy camp was situated in a valley between high mountains and it was a nightmare to protect against assaults or snipers. A letter had been left during the day where they threatened to once again attack the camp. It was biting cold outside and the only thing that didn't freeze was the mud, that reached above the ankles. The fog was thick and made it impossible to see more than 50 meters.

Early in the morning we made another attempt to rescue the refugees. This time we brought two medic SISU's and another armed Guard/Escort SISU. Major Daniel Ekberg was in command of the unit. We negotiated a passage through a couple of checkpoints and went back to the location we had found last evening. There we stopped in the middle of the road in a narrow canyon between two hill slopes. We used our powerful horns on the vehicles and our interpreter Ruzdi Ekenheim explained through a megaphone that we were from UNPROFOR and there to help. Nothing happened. If the refugees really were there they were afraid to show themselves. Twenty minutes passed and soon we would have to leave. If the HVO found us we would be in trouble.

Just when we had begun to give up hope we hear a cry for help from the forest. Little by little twenty five frozen, shocked human remnants come to us. A woman had died during the night, but we had no means of bringing her corpse. We left her body behind.

A pretty girl in her twenties throws herself crying around the neck of Ekenheim. She tells of how she was forced to watch her family get killed. Her boyfriend was on crutches after an injury, and they made her watch them kill him. If she had dropped as much as a tear they would have killed her too. After this they raped her and threw her into a house with some other villagers. The door was blocked and the house was set on fire.

The girl was alive now thanks to a sledge being found. While the house was burning, they used that to make a hole in the wall and managed to flee into the forest at the back of the house.

In the middle of our rescue operation a mini-bus filled with Croatian HVO soldiers comes driving towards us at high speed. I pointed my heavy machinegun at them and armed it. The warning shot I intended to fire turned out not to be necessary though. At the mere sight of the muzzle the soldiers became so frightened that they drove off the road. We let the trembling soldiers leave the scene in the company of two other HVO soldiers that had been captured and disarmed by the Guard/Escort-SISU at the other end of the column.

After making sure we had gotten all refugees and loaded them into our already crammed SISU-vehicles we drove to the village Pominici on the Bosnian side of the front. Our SISU was so full of people that I had to stand on one leg the whole trip there. Since the rear was packed with refugees, any attempt to lessen the target silhouette by crouching behind the machinegun was made impossible and I felt like my entire upper body was a glow-in-the-dark target for the Croatian snipers.

I will never forget the emotions and facial expressions that met us in Pominici. People desperately looking for relatives. The relief of finding the one they were looking for. The despair when someone wasn't there. At least I had an affirmation that our presence was not only justified. It was essential.

Now we just had to get back. That turned out to be more difficult than we expected. By now the HVO knew what we had done. They didn't like that we had "picked sides" by helping the refugees. Probably it also was against UN directives for the area. At a checkpoint in the southern outskirts of Vares we were stopped. Major Ekberg asked for advice on the radio. Ulf Henricsson himself answered.

"-This is Victor Lima One. Are there any mines there?"

"-Negative!"

"-Give them two minutes - then run you the damn thing down!"

That was the first roadblock, but far from the last, to be smashed under the Nordic battalion's armoured vehicles.

We ran a gauntlet through Vares before we were stopped by soldiers with anti tank weapons. Four solders with LAWs were fanned out in front of the convoy. The situation was so tense one careless move would immediately have set off a battle. As I was standing at the heavy machinegun in the front-most vehicle I realized I would be the first to fall. Add to that the machinegun was mounted on an anti-aircraft carriage completely devoid of armour protection. I was an easy target. At the same time I realized my weapon was the only thing that would get us out of there if the battle started. I started preparing for my own death by giving orders and assigning targets for the others in the rear of the vehicle. The most important thing was that someone took my weapon when - not if - I fell.

The Croatian military policeman that was in charge of the HVO soldiers stepped up with a couple of men to negotiate. He had 25 hash marks on the butt if his AK47. One for each enemy he had killed. Major Ekberg and the interpreter Ekeheim hade stepped out of the SISU and were now negotiating with the Croatians. The situation was tense. Very tense. After some time of negotiating the tension seemed to ease a bit. We thought the danger was over - but just like a letter in the mail a mentally disturbed HVO soldier came in a white VW Golf. Something had snapped with him when his entire family was obliterated by a grenade. For some reason he now hated the UN for this.

He stepped out of his car among the negotiating Swedes and Croatians, mad as a hornet, and grabbed on the HVO soldiers' LAWs in order to fire it against the SISU behind ours. In an instant the situation escalated and I had time to think "Shit, this is really happening now".

This was one of those moments in your life when time stands completely still. I saw in the eyes of the Croatian soldier that was in the sights of my 12.7 millimetre machinegun that he understood what was about to happen.

I'm pulling it...

But - a fraction of a second before the first projectiles from my heavy machinegun would have struck the chest of the first of the four LAW-carrying soldiers fifty meters in front of us, one of the Croatians managed to strike the somewhat antisocial man with a straight punch and remove the LAW from him. I eased up on the trigger and felt I must have been right on the pressure point of it. So damn close. Maybe there wouldn't be any killing after all.

Everyone breathed a sigh of relief. Had he had time to aim the LAW at the SISU, a series of events would have been started that couldn't have ended with anything but us or the Croatians being the only ones standing up. I felt my legs were shaking continuously. Partly from the psychical strain and partly from standing in the exact same strenuous position for half an hour.

The LAW soldier in my sights didn't like the fact that I was aiming at him and changed position. Not so strange after the incident with the LAW snatcher. I followed him with the barrel. He showed with unmistakable gestures that he felt provoked. I didn't care. We stared each other out, and neither wanted to be the first to back down. In the middle of our psychological duel I leaned out from behind the machinegun, winked and smiled at him. I won the battle. He became so flabbergasted he didn't really know what to do or how to behave, and started pacing like a confused chicken.

Suddenly Colonel Ulf Henricssons jeep shows up out of nowhere. The short statured - but oh so powerful - colonel steps out and starts shouting orders at both Swedes and HVO soldiers. The HVO men look almost astonished, and like magic Henricsson dominates the scene in a manner few people are capable of. He takes control of the situation and defuses it completely. We quite simply leave, leaving behind a large group of open-mouthed HVO soldiers.

We return to the camp for a debriefing of what the refugees have told us about Stupni Do. Conclusion: we ARE going into that village. Two mech inf platoons from 8th and 10th coy are selected for the task. For the first time in a very, very long time Swedish troops are ordered to get ready to take terrain. The platoons are assigned the north and south access roads to Stupni Do and set out.

At the same time we give colonel Henricsson a ride to the Bobovac Brigade headquarters in our SISU. The Croatians are given one last chance to let us in. If they don't, we will go in anyway. Exactly what the very resolute Henricsson said to the Bobovac Brigade commander I don't know - but the commander comes out personally and drives ahead of us in his personal maroon Vaz Niva to make sure we are let into the village.

Fairly undramatically we meet up with the mech inf platoon assigned to the northern approach of the village. There is also an armoured jeep there with a near suicidal television crew. Henricsson decides to take advantage of the situation and invites the crew to document what has happened. The colonel walks with the journalists ahead of our SISU as we slowly roll into Stupni Do.

Not one house in the village had been spared. Everything had been blown up, burnt down, destroyed. At first glance the village seemed devoid of people, but just after a few minutes we find the charred remains of a person. After a careful search a total of twenty corpses are found, among them a child about eight to ten years old that had been kicked to death. Three women that had tried to hide in a potato store had had their throats slit. Then they had been shot in the head. The corpses were still desperately holding hands. When a pioneer platoon later on are to carry out the bodies they find a booby trap had been set by putting an armed grenade in the armpit of one of the bodies. It falls out on the floor without detonating.

The entire village was completely eradicated. A single cow and some cat had in some strange way escaped annihilation. Smoke was smouldering from the foundations of the houses. Water was bizarrely enough running from the blown up water mains. A sole yellow child's boot was on a slope outside one of the houses. I'm still wondering what had happened to the child that just some day ago been spending its time happily playing. Maybe the child was one of the little girls that were said to have been burned alive with gasoline for the murderers' amusement.

Colonel Henricsson stepped back into the SISU. We were now going to Pominici to interview the refugees thoroughly. We were all very dogged. An HVO soldier was no longer worth anything in the eyes of Nordbat. The respect we possibly had felt before was completely gone. As we are driving through the southern approach to Stupni Do the HVO has mined the passage under the railway viaduct we have to pass. On the other side is the mech inf platoon assigned to the southern approach. Colonel Henricsson gives the nearest HVO soldier a raging excoriation. The man is horror-struck and defends himself by saying he "just a soldier!". But he refuses to remove the mines and we simply drive up the slopes and over the railway. In the middle of the rail yard we greet the mech inf platoon heading the other way.

We are once again stopped at the checkpoint we forced our way through earlier that day. They don't intend to get run over again and have placed mines across the road. A furious colonel Henricsson jumps out of the SISU with his interpreter Ekenheim. Henricsson explains that the mines will be removed, or "we will blow your head off", pointing demonstratively at my heavy machinegun. The muzzle is pointed right at the HVO soldier's forehead and judging by his face it must have looked as if it was the muzzle of a howitzer. Ekenheim simultaneously translates Henricssons berating of the soldier, amusingly enough with the same lively gestures.

The entire crew of the vehicle is standing in the hatches, ready to fire. One man is even in a kneeling position on top of the vehicle. Our grim expressions and determined gazes makes the HVO soldiers realize that the discussion is over. None of them dare touch their guns. Nordbat is not negotiating anymore today.

When nothing happens colonel Henricsson picks up the first mine from the road himself and throws is carelessly at a pile of tires at a house wall. He picks up another mine and sends it in the same direction. Finally he forces the checkpoint commander as a final defeat to pick up the last mine himself. Stooped over he trots along with the mine in his hands. The road is clear and we continue.

In the same insane pace we continue our rampage in Vares for another few days. Nordbat Two is no longer negotiating about the "freedom of movement" the UN was entitled to according to an agreement with the fighting parties. Those who stand in our way we run over. As per order by colonel Henricsson we are authorized for immediate fire for effect. In his own words: "We shot the warning shot last Thursday".

In three days we sleep a total of a few hours. The little sleep we get is usually in a firing position at the camp with sleeping-bags wrapped around the body in order to not freeze to death. We eat frozen "pyttipanna†(hashed meat and potatoes) that we chisel from large tin cans. That's when someone suddenly realizes we're being benefit taxed for free food and lodging. For the same amount as if we had stayed at the Scandic Hotel eating entrecote.

The Canadian troops assigned to us as reinforcements consider us to be crazy already on the first day and leave us as they deem the situation to be too dangerous. Instead, a couple of days later we get reinforced by a company from the French foreign legion.

The non-Swedish UN-generals, who previously were sceptical towards Nordbat 2 changed their attitude in the blink of an eye after Vares. Comrades from my platoon were giving Ulf Henricsson a ride to the UN Headquarters at Kiseljak outside Sarajevo a couple of days after the climax.

In the old Olympic Games motel that housed "BH Command" there was a large canteen where all the personnel dined. When a small group of Swedish soldiers get in the food queue with colonel Henricsson up front everyone in the room stands up, from privates to generals, and applauds. Nordbat 2 had made themselves a reputation in Bosnia.

The British general and UN commander in Bosnia Sir Michael Rose, former chief of 22 SAS Regiment (and previously one of the strongest critics towards the Swedish presence) later wants the Swedish battalion to be a part of a special rapid reaction unit to be deployed in special situations anywhere in Bosnia. The Swedish government declined. Sir Michael Rose later wrote a debate article back home in the UK where the Swedish soldiers are mentioned as a shining example of how a conscript based military system also can produce soldiers of the highest international ranking.

One of the "suicidal" journalists on site in Vares was Anthony Lloyd, himself a former soldier in the British army and a Northern Ireland and Gulf War veteran. In his book "My war gone by, I miss it so" he mentions the Swedes in the following manner:

"The men inside (the APC) might have been UN but they were playing by a completely different set of rules.

They were Swedes; in terms of individual intelligence, integrity and single-mindedness I was to find them among the most impressive soldiers I had ever encountered.

In Vares their moment had come."

[EiZei 0]

Oh man.. being a SISU PaSi HMG gunner in that kind of situtation without the extra shielding.. nerve-wrecking does not even begin to describe that.

[HotShot 0]

Nice read, thanks for sharing it with us shadow.

EDIT: There's quite abit on Stupni Do, and the most recent report on it seems to show that the commander who ordered the crimes, Ivica Rajic, has still not been scentanced (as of August 05 - source). Also it appears there may have been more than the 20 deaths the Swede thought it might be, with it thought to be more like 37.

[Radnik 18]

... for true, this is one of the not to many situations,

where all went well and with no casualties, except

for civilians.

conflict in Bosnia was to complicated, and no clear

good or bad side ... it was a civil war,

and there was many sides fighting against each other.

[the_shadow 0]

... for true, this is one of the not to many situations,

where all went well and with no casualties, except

for civilians.

conflict in Bosnia was to complicated, and no clear

good or bad side ... it was a civil war,

and there was many sides fighting against each other.

yeah, and at the midlle of that mess was the UNPROFOR units..

i can really understand how tense it must have been..

btw, the swedish battalion was nicknamed "The lucky battalion", becouse they was shoot at alot and didnt have one single casualty, even though it was very close a few times (RPG going straight through the troop compartment of a APC, noone injured, though i guy got fragments from the armour cought in his flashlight wich he had in his leg pocket) and many other things like that. it´s a wonder noone got killed (ok, a few ppl died, but that was accidents in the camp and not by hostile fire)

[the_shadow 0]

Nice read, thanks for sharing it with us shadow.

EDIT: There's quite abit on Stupni Do, and the most recent report on it seems to show that the commander who ordered the crimes, Ivica Rajic, has still not been scentanced (as of August 05 - source). Also it appears there may have been more than the 20 deaths the Swede thought it might be, with it thought to be more like 37.

yeah, as i said, the text is from 2003 (10 years after) and is a eye witness report of a guy that was there.

i think much is still unknown about what really happened there.

[gandalf the white 0]

very impresive reading !

The part about the young woman was very dramatic, poor girl..

[Blake 0]

I heard that the Danish peacekeepers had significant firefight with the Serbs in Bosnia in 1994. Does anybody have detail abou this incident?

Quote[/b] ] A

Danish unit was attacked by Bosnian Serb gunners a few days ago, and

the Danish tanks responded very vigorously, inflicted casualties on

the Bosnian Serbs, acquitted themselves well, and protected

themselves.  And they -- all U.N. peacekeepers, whether under Chapter

6 or Chapter 7, have the right of self-defense, and they exercised

it.

[the_shadow 0]

that must have been the "Operation Böllebank"

where danish tanks supported the swedish battalion and amongst other things opened fire at a hilltop from wich serbians? opened fire on just about every vehicle that passed on the road (one of the main supply roads for UN) with just about every weapon ranging from small arms to AA cannons...

it´s said that the tankers fired every single round they had loaded into the tank and when they was later asked why they shot so much they answered "we didn´t have more".

must have been somwhere around 1994.

and sorry, this is really all i know about it.

but, a couple of danish tanks was designated to support the swedes becouse they had taken quite a lot of hostile fire, and this time it wasnt wheeled APC´s that passed on the road infront of the hill, it was danish leopard 1 tanks, and they shot back with everything they got.

and i belive the serbians quit ambushing UN troops, atleast from that hill.

maybe there is someone from denmark here that can dig up more about that.

i know that the name of the operation where danish tanks supported the swedes was "Operation Böllebank"

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

Im not sure if it was the same operation we are talking about. But my brother in laws, brother (tough ey), was in bosnia as a commander. He told me about a situation where they drove a leopard 1 tank in a valley in the night, when the driver suddenly stopped, seing 2 rpgs on the way towards them, hitting just a few metres infront of them.

Then the gunner ordered some arty towards the position, but somehow he told the wrong position, and the shells went far over the hill.

They were very frightened by this, as they realised they had little time. Suddenly the sky lightened up behind the hill, where the "too far arty shells" had hit an enemy weapon depot, killing a few hundred men.

The danes was not attacked in that area anymore.

[Sniperwolf572 758]

...controlled by HVO, the Bosnian-Croatian army...

This statement is incorrect:

HVO = Hrvatski Vojni Odbor = Croatian Military Commitee

As far as I know, there weren't any bosnians in HVO, take it from person who was in Sarajevo during the war.

[denoir 0]

HVO was more or less exclusively bosnian - or better to say herzegovian organization. It was funded and armed to a large degree by Croatia (at least up to 1994), but the organization itself and its members were all bosnian-Croats. So his statement is quite correct.

Quote[/b] ]HVO = Hrvatski Vojni Odbor = Croatian Military Commitee

Actually, HVO = Hrvatsko Vijece Obrane = Croatian Defence Council

[Radnik 18]

I heard that the Danish peacekeepers had significant firefight with the Serbs in Bosnia in 1994. Does anybody have detail abou this incident?

... well i know some of a few stories how incidents ended up.

one Grizzly was captured from Canadian UN Troops

by Bosnian Serb Forces, don`t know when thou ?, but

now used within special Serbian Forces.

this picture was taken 05.10.2000 on streets of

Belgrade, during Slobodan Milosevic takedown !

officially one YPR-765 PRI/I captured from Holland UN Troops

thou, reports says there`s 6 missing ??

those was captured in Srebrenica,

this is the only picture of it, ... there`s no other so

it`s not very cleary picture but since it is capt in secret ... !

YPR-765 PRI/I is 4th in a row of vehicles

on this second picture there are 6 HMMWVs,

allso captured in Bosnia from same Holland Troops

in Srebrenica ??, this is unoficial story ... don`t know ?? maybe

they are taken form some other UN Troops, ... there`s no

even one report about those.

[Sniperwolf572 758]

HVO was more or less exclusively bosnian - or better to say herzegovian organization. It was funded and armed to a large degree by Croatia (at least up to 1994), but the organization itself and its members were all bosnian-Croats. So his statement is quite correct.

Quote[/b] ]HVO = Hrvatski Vojni Odbor = Croatian Military Commitee

Actually, HVO = Hrvatsko Vijece Obrane = Croatian Defence Council

Yes Denoir, I stand corrected on that abberviation.

But text says Bosnian-Croatian army, as if two armies were mixed together, and yes I agree with you that they were Bosnian Croats.

[denoir 0]

Aha, ok, now I understand what you meant. I think however the expression there "Bosnian-Croatian" is referring to the military of the "Bosnian-Croats" (to differentiate from Croatia's military forces), and not a military of Bosnians and Croatians.

Well, sorting that all out isn't very simple  

For those that don't know the conflict, back '92-'95 the foll wing groups were involved:

Bosinan-Serbs

military: Vojska Republike Srpske (VRS) - Military of the Serbian Republic

Bosnian-Croats

military: Hrvatsko Vijece Obrane (HVO) - Croatian Defence Council

Bosnian-Muslims

Armija BiH (AB) - Bosnian-Herzegovinian Army

Serbs

military: Vojska Jugoslavije (VJ) - Yugoslav Military

Croats

military: Hrvatska Vojska (HV) - Croatian Military

and finally you had a fairly big paramilitary force in the north of Bosnia controlled by a Muslim warlord called Abdic.

Now, for most of the conflict AB and HVO fought on the same side against VRS and VJ. During a few periods however HVO and AB fought each other. The Bosnian-Serbs were bankrolled by Serbia to a large degree and the Bosnian-Croats were getting money and weapons from Croatia. The notable difference there is that VJ was actually on the ground in Bosnia and fought, while HV stayed in the background and didn't get involved until 1995 (more on that later) - they were more interested in getting back occupied territory in Croatia.

The Serbs in Bosnia were best off as VJ had most the JNA (old Yugoslav army) hardware and the largest number of troops. The Bosnian-Croats got weapons and money form Croatia. So the Bosnian-Muslims were worst off.

By 93/94 Croatia started to cut off its ties to the Bosnian-Croats and HVO as the conflict grew more messy and stories of atrocities (like Stupni Do) began to surface both in Croatian and international media.

In 1995 Croatia started "Operation Storm" where it retook parts of Croatia that were taken by the Serbs in 1991. They linked up with AB and HVO in Bosnia and took a large part of northern Bosnia. While they were at it they clobbered the warlord Abic whose forces were in the region. When they reached the town of Bihac, they stopped on the request of the Americans, who had given the operation some support. Had Bihac been taken, Republika Srpska (the Bosnian-Serb republic) would have collapsed.

Instead this later lead to the Dayton Agreemnet which lead to the end of the war in Bosnia. HV withdrew and in the process disarmed HVO (to the great displeasure of many Bosnian-Croats who felt betrayed by Croatia) and left the territory in control of AB.

Some time after in 1995, they Dayton Agreement was signed which created two entities in Bosnia, one Croatian-Muslim federation and a Serbian republic. After this Serbia started cutting off the Bosnian-Serbs. Later UN, NATO and EU were involved in administering the country. Right now the EU-led EUFOR is overall in charge of much of the administration. Bosnia is still in fairly bad political state today. The Croat-Muslim federation is doing relatively good, but the Serbian region is in a terrible state as they have been economically cut off from everybody, including Serbia.

As Radnik pointed out, the conflict was complicated and it was times difficult to distinguish the victim from the attacker. Especially 1993-1994, the place was a complete mess with all sides fighting each other. It did start fairly simple, with Milosevic starting an occupation with the help of Bosnian-Serb nationalist and it did end on that note as well - but the period in between was truly messy, and all sides had blood on their hands.

[Sniperwolf572 758]

Yes Denoir everything you said it's true (I take it that you served with your military in Bosnia?), altough we have alot of political problems as corruption, country is getting on its feet, and life standards of regular working man are getting better, altough retired are having hard time.

[DracoPaladore 0]

one Grizzly was captured from Canadian UN Troops

by Bosnian Serb Forces, don`t know when thou ?, but

now used within special Serbian Forces.

this picture was taken 05.10.2000 on streets of

Belgrade, during Slobodan Milosevic takedown !

Never heard of that.

[shinRaiden 0]

Yes Denoir everything you said it's true (I take it that you served with your military in Bosnia?), altough we have alot of political problems as corruption, country is getting on its feet, and life standards of regular working man are getting better, altough retired are having hard time.

Undercover agent for IKEA targeting locator opportunities

[Radnik 18]

In 1995 Croatia started "Operation Storm" where it retook parts of Croatia that were taken by the Serbs in 1991. They linked up with AB and HVO in Bosnia and took a large part of northern Bosnia.

a note denoir, ... Srbs was there much much before 1991.

lets say even before 1389, "Republic-of-Serbian-Krajina"

just with croatia make it independency 1991, on this territory was

formed a state, with 91% of Serbs named Repulika Srpska Krajina (Republic-of-Serbian-Krajina),

ethnic cleaned by croatian army with western support in 1995,

in form as "Operation_Storm".

Quote[/b] ]As Radnik pointed out, the conflict was complicated and it was times difficult to distinguish the victim from the attacker. Especially 1993-1994, the place was a complete mess with all sides fighting each other.

totaly right !

Quote[/b] ]It did start fairly simple, with Milosevic starting an occupation with the help of Bosnian-Serb nationalist and it did end on that note as well - but the period in between was truly messy, and all sides had blood on their hands.

i don`t agree with this ... but it would go to much offtopic

if we start to debate about this and we had a discussion earlier on this ...

... start of ex-YU war isn`t simple, as war it self.

[denoir 0]

a note denoir, ... Srbs was there much much before 1991.

lets say even before 1389, "Republic-of-Serbian-Krajina"

just with croatia make it independency 1991, on this territory was

formed a state, with 91% of Serbs named Repulika Srpska Krajina (Republic-of-Serbian-Krajina)

I didn't say that there weren't any Serbs there before 1991 - on the contrary, they've been there since the Habsburg monarchy where Krajina served as a military buffer against the Turks. It was however not an independent entity - it was always a part of Croatia - or directly under Austrian control.

As for right to independence, the issue is debatable. As I said, there was no historic precedent for that. In Yugoslavia, you had republics who were members of a federation - and had the constitutional right to leave the federation. This wasn't the case for provinces. So on one hand, you have a republic, with historically recognized borders - and it gets invaded by federal forces. And on the other you have a province, without any historical borders or precedence of independence, that rebels against the government of the republic.

I mean, you have to draw the line somewhere, don't you? If you declare that your house is an independent state, and you start shooting at people outside, the police will come and get you. This could not be considered to be the same as one sovereign country invading another, could it?

And don't you think it is a bit hypocritical to say that the Kosovo-Albanians shouldn't be given independence from Serbia while the Croatian Serbs should from Croatia - although Kosovo did indeed have a certain degree of autonomy in Yugoslavia?

Quote[/b] ]

ethnic cleaned by croatian army with western support in 1995,

in form as "Operation_Storm".

Hehe, that's overstating it a bit. Ethnic cleansing is when you forcibly remove a population in one way or another. In the case of Krajina, the Serbian civilian population fled before coming in contact with any Croatian force. Later when they wanted to return, they weren't let back in - which of course wasn't very nice, but hardly ethnic cleansing. And this too was changed after some appropriate international pressure on the Croats.

Now I'm not defending the Croatians for not letting Serbs back, but hey, in context of the rest of the conflict in former-Yugoslavia, this was a very gentle operation. You can hardly compare it to the ethnic cleansing that happened in Bosnia, where people were murdered on a large scale and whole towns leveled.

Quote[/b] ]i don`t agree with this ... but it would go to much offtopic

if we start to debate about this and we had a discussion earlier on this ...

I could hardly think anything more on-topic

Quote[/b] ]

...  start of ex-YU war isn`t simple, as war it self.

Heh, that's a very Serbian view. I think you'll find that the other sides wholeheartedly disagree with that. Of course, war is never simple or nice. You kill people, that's always nasty, regardless on which side you are on. But you need to have a reality check now and then as well. Not everything is relative.

Take the example in the initial post, Stupni Do. Some 30 innocent civilians were brutally murdered. A truly horrific act. But then you take a look at Srebrenica with 8,000 innocent civilians brutally murdered.

You could say both were horrific acts hence both sides are equally guilty. But would that be right 30 vs 8,000?

So you can indeed say that the situation isn't black and white, but shades of gray. But you can't say that they're all the same gray.

Sniperwolf:

Quote[/b] ]

I take it that you served with your military in Bosnia?

No, I served in Kosovo, but I've had an interest in knowing the broader picture.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

Quote[/b] ]As for right to independence, the issue is debatable. As I said, there was no historic precedent for that.

Yeah there is. Take all the countries in the Balkans for example, they are a people, they have a right to be free from an oppressive empire (Turkey, Austria, Italy), or to simply rule and govern themselves.

Hell, the United States were founded on that same principle. People have a right for self-determination, and there's plenty of precedents for that. However, I probably misunderstood you, as there's no way you will deny someone the right for self-determination. Might as well have Sweden ruled by Norway again then

Quote[/b] ]Ethnic cleansing is when you forcibly remove a population in one way or another. In the case of Krajina, the Serbian civilian population fled before coming in contact with any Croatian force. Later when they wanted to return, they weren't let back in - which of course wasn't very nice, but hardly ethnic cleansing.

I'm sorry, but you just described ethnic cleansing. Ethnic cleansing is not genocide, the difference is that you kill the people in a genocide, but in ethnic cleansing you merely remove them from the area. Now whether that's through applying force or through making them flee your (savage) armies, its still ethnic cleansing.

By your logic, neither 1922 (Smyrna) nor 1974 (Cyprus) are Ethnic Cleansing...nor is Kosovo or Berg-Karabach.

A people that is uprooted from its locality by force of arms, or threat of force of arms, is being ethnically cleansed (well, the land is, but point still stands.)

I find that there's a misconception of Ethnic Cleansing vs. Genocide. Ethnic Cleansing doesn't require killing, it "merely" means uprooting a people and chasing them away from their land. Genocide means killing them. Of course, genocide also results in ethnic cleansing, since dead people don't live on land anymore (absurd thought, but you know what I mean).

[denoir 0]

Quote[/b] ]As for right to independence, the issue is debatable. As I said, there was no historic precedent for that.

Yeah there is. Take all the countries in the Balkans for example, they are a people, they have a right to be free from an oppressive empire (Turkey, Austria, Italy), or to simply rule and govern themselves.

Hell, the United States were founded on that same principle. People have a right for self-determination, and there's plenty of precedents for that. However, I probably misunderstood you, as there's no way you will deny someone the right for self-determination. Might as well have Sweden ruled by Norway again then

Eh?   I'm saying that Krajina has historically not been a separate independent entity. And yes, of course I believe in restriction in the right of self-determination of people. I'm not an anarchist.

As for Sweden and Norway, perhaps you were joking, but Norway was ruled by Sweden, never the other way around.

Quote[/b] ]I'm sorry, but you just described ethnic cleansing. Ethnic cleansing is not genocide, the difference is that you kill the people in a genocide, but in ethnic cleansing you merely remove them from the area. Now whether that's through applying force or through making them flee your (savage) armies, its still ethnic cleansing.

I never said that killing was required, but forcing people to move. If I don't like my neighbourhood and move to a new apartment, I'm not being ethnically cleansed. The people in Krajina weren't forced to move (unless you count that before collapsing the Serbian government there ordered a full withdrawal, which included the civilians). Those that chose to stay weren't removed, killed etc

Quote[/b] ]By your logic, neither 1922 (Smyrna) nor 1974 (Cyprus) are Ethnic Cleansing...nor is Kosovo or Berg-Karabach.

Smyrna, which side do you mean? The "bestiality and barbarity" committed by the Greek army, as described by the British high commissioner in the region, when  they withdrew to the city, or the Turks burning the city?

As for Kosovo, it was indeed ethnic cleansing because people were forced from their homes at gunpoint.

And for Cyprus, I'd say yes, both pre-1974 by the Greeks and after the invasion by the Turks. My knowledge of the conflict is however fairly limited so I shall not speculate.

Quote[/b] ]A people that is uprooted from its locality by force of arms, or threat of force of arms, is being ethnically cleansed (well, the land is, but point still stands.)

Indeed, but it requires you to being explicitly forced away, and not that you flee because you have been scared by your own sides propaganda or simply do not wish to be in a war zone. The Germans did not ethnically cleans Paris in 1915 when they parked their guns outside the city and most of the population fled. The Americans did not ethnically cleans Fallujah, although a majority of the civilians fled before the city was attacked.

Saying that it was diminishes the importance and the graveness of the war crime of ethnic cleansing. Wars are nasty things and people get hurt, killed etc, but you should not relatives or trivialize the concepts of war crimes. Ethnic cleansing is purposeful and systematic.

In Krajina, there was no systematic forcing of people away from their homes. As Radnik said, that military operation came with support of the western powers and sup revision as well. And nobody involved was ever charged with ethnic cleansing, much less convicted. There were some acts of violence and even killing of Serbian civilians in Krajina, but that happened after the military withdrew and returning locals and paramilitary units took their revenge. And these cases have quite correctly been dealt with by the ITCY (Hague) as well as by Croatian courts.

And this goes for the other side as well. Most of the Croats from the Krajina region weren't forced away, but chose to leave after the Krajina-Serbs declared their independence.

Now, why is this important? Quite simply because if you start calling people fleeing from a war zone for ethnic cleansing then you trivialize the crime which is quite unfair to those exposed to the real thing.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

So applying psychological pressure by having your troops march towards a certain region is not inducing ethnic cleansing? If you were a civilian and an enemy force (which is rumoured to be brutal) is marching towards your city - will you wait for them to tell you "get out or we will kill you"? Thus risking them not telling you anything and shooting you on sight?

I know I wouldn't, and I would consider myself to have been chased away...I'd rather be ethnically cleansed (even if the gunpoint is miles away but approaching) than suffer from genocide, i.e. be killed instantly without the chance to leave.

That's why a gun does not have to be physically present to commit ethnic cleansing. By simply having your most savage of troops march towards a city, you can induce ethnic cleansing without much effort. It is a bullying tactic...which will result in ethnic cleansing anyway. So why stay. To make it legal? Are you willing to take that risk?

Quote[/b] ]Smyrna, which side do you mean? The "bestiality and barbarity" committed by the Greek army, as described by the British high commissioner in the region, when they withdrew to the city

Rubbish, Greek Troops were never ordered to committed any warcrimes in or near Smyrna. Unfortunately, individual elements did commit warcrimes in '21, when the army left Smyrna in the attempt to hunt down Ataturk and burn down Ankara. The deeper they went into Anatolia, the more savage these fringe elements became. Mind you, can't expect much more from the royalists...

But upon the retreat to Smyrna, the army didn't commit any crimes, because they were too busy retreating.

In Smyrna herself, the only crimes committed were by the Turks by killing and burning Greeks and Armenians - as ordered per signed order from Kemal Ataturk, let's not forget. Let's also not forget our "allies" (the British and the French) sitting on their ship decks and playing music so their sailors wouldn't get upset by the screams of the victims :/

Either way, a classic example of ethnic cleansing. Greek population of Asia Minor before 1921 - 3.5M (not counting istanbul). Greek population after 1922 in Asia Minor (again, not counting Istanbul): less than a thousand.

Quote[/b] ]And for Cyprus, I'd say yes, both pre-1974 by the Greeks and after the invasion by the Turks. My knowledge of the conflict is however fairly limited so I shall not speculate.

There are no Greeks on Cyprus, only Cypriots. You're probably referring to the actions of EOKA-B in the 60s...that wasn't ethnic cleansing, it was a fascist terrorist organisation blowing random people up and executing them. As far as I am aware, no Turkish Cypriots were removed from their homes...but Turkey's invasion of Northern Cyprus did result in the displacement of hundreds of thousands of people, with movement from south to north and vice versa.

Anyway, the point is, whether the gun is there or its just being imagined to be there via bullying through having troops march towards you, ethnic cleansing remains ethnic cleansing.

[denoir 0]

So applying psychological pressure by having your troops march towards a certain region is not inducing ethnic cleansing? If you were a civilian and an enemy force (which is rumoured to be brutal) is marching towards your city - will you wait for them to tell you "get out or we will kill you"? Thus risking them not telling you anything and shooting you on sight?

It's not applying psychological pressure, it's taking back your territory. What did you expect them to do, say, "No, we won't take our territory back, because we know you might be scared".

Actually on the morning when the operation started there were radio broadcasts (after UN encouragement) that urged the Serbian population to stay, saying that no civilians would be hurt and that all surrendering soldiers would get amnesty. Of course, they weren't heart-broken that the Serbs didn't believe the guarantee, but it was made.

Quote[/b] ]I know I wouldn't, and I would consider myself to have been chased away...I'd rather be ethnically cleansed (even if the gunpoint is miles away but approaching) than suffer from genocide, i.e. be killed instantly without the chance to leave.

Yeah, but the point here being that those that stayed behind didn't get killed or chased away.

Quote[/b] ]That's why a gun does not have to be physically present to commit ethnic cleansing. By simply having your most savage of troops march towards a city, you can induce ethnic cleansing without much effort. It is a bullying tactic...which will result in ethnic cleansing anyway. So why stay. To make it legal? Are you willing to take that risk?

And in what way would have those been their "most savage of troops", when this was actually the only second larger offensive operation. The previous, similar in nature but smaller in scale did not end with Serbs fleeing the area and they weren't killed, hurt or persecuted. Although there were certainly radical elements who would have wanted to take out a revenge, they were controlled so nothing of the sort happened. This of course wasn't because they loved and cared for the Serbs that much, but because at the time Croatia was trying to gain international favour and whitewash itself from its funding of paramilitary groups in Bosnia (who did indeed do some nasty stuff).

Up to that first position, the Croats weren't really in the position to hurt Serbian civilians, even if they wanted to. You have to remember that in 1991 the Serbs took a solid portion of Eastern Croatia and they more or less held it until 1995. So the Serbian civilian population in that region weren't in any contact with Croatian troops.

There was an incident in 1993 though, when a Croatian general (forgot the name) was in charge of taking back a small occupied region. He did, and while he was at it his men murdered in cold blood nearly 30 civilians. There was a big cover up, he was removed from command and there was a solid attempt at a white wash. He however was quite correctly sent to the Hague and tried for war crimes. As brutal and unacceptable such an action was, it still has to be taken into context that in that region there lived thousands of Serbs who weren't hurt or chased away.

Bottom line, what I'm trying to say is that the Serbs had de facto no reason to flee, beyond the propaganda they were fed by their leaders. Croatia was of course quite happy with such a development, but that doesn't make it responsible for the choice of the people who left. The Croatian troops could have hardly been described as the "most savage troops" as they were mostly completely inexperienced conscripts who had not done any fighting at all.

Incidentally, I happen to know a man who I consider to be my good friend who participated in "Storm" on the Croatian side. He's a Serb, married to a Croatian lady. I've heard some really great stories - he was in charge of a bigass Bofors recoilless anti-tank gun. (He had the good fortune of never having to fire it, as basically you get one shot with these and then you find yourself the primary target of every tank in sight). Anyway, while it may give me a degree of bias, I certainly trust his account of how the operation unfolded.

In addition, I talked to quite a few Serbs in Kosovo who had fled from Krajina to Serbia only to be moved to Kosovo in regions where the Albanians had been chased away. They were very pissed off - not at the Croats, but at their local ex-leadership in Krajina who had prompted them to run for it. Almost without exception they planned on returning, and that's exactly what happened. To date a majority has returned.

Quote[/b] ]

Rubbish, Greek Troops were never ordered to committed any warcrimes in or near Smyrna. Unfortunately, individual elements did commit warcrimes in '21, when the army left Smyrna in the attempt to hunt down Ataturk and burn down Ankara. The deeper they went into Anatolia, the more savage these fringe elements became. Mind you, can't expect much more from the royalists...

But upon the retreat to Smyrna, the army didn't commit any crimes, because they were too busy retreating.

I know basically nothing about it, I only quote Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smyrna

Quote[/b] ] Many of the Greeks feared reprisal from Turkish soldiers for the 'scorched earth' policy of the greek forces which had left large tracts of countryside devastated by fire in wake of their retreat, as well as maltreatment of the Turkish population during their occupation; for that reason, many Greek refugees from the countryside had come into the town. While the Turkish army gave chase to the Greek soldiers retreating to Smyrna, the British High Commisioner Sir H. Rumbold described to Lord Curzon acts of "bestiality and barbarity" commited by the Greek army. The British historian Patrick Kinross writes that "Permeating the atmosphere, as Turks advanced down the valleys, was the stench of unburied bodies, of charred human and animal flesh".

But as I said, I know very little about it, so I don't really want to make any statements either way. I'll read up on it some time.

Quote[/b] ]Anyway, the point is, whether the gun is there or its just being imagined to be there via bullying through having troops march towards you, ethnic cleansing remains ethnic cleansing.

By that reasoning any movement against enemy territory would constitute ethnic cleansing.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

Hm, I was under the impression that pretty much every military maneuver resulted in negative results for the civilian populations, i.e. lootings, killings, etc.

I can see your point though, if these occurrences are the exception and not the rule, then yeah, the psychological factor isn't really applied since there's no basis in reality for previous atrocities.

Point taken