Hurricane Katrina!

[walker 0]

Hi all

I realy thought America could cope with this.

Enough of that though we need to get a full UN operation going there.

*Tents

*blankets

*food and water as well as water cleaning systems

*generators,

*body ID teams

*rescue teams

*helicopters

*FOOD AND AID DISTRIBUTION TEAMS hell send in Oxfam

*Medical Teams, Send in Medison Son Frontier

*Refugee assistance and Rebuild Teams

the whole nine yards, same as if it were somwhere in the Asian Tsunami.

Kind Regards Walker

[denoir 0]

@ Sep. 02 2005,12:35)]Also don't know if anyone posted this but it bears repeating:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html....02.html

Quote[/b] ]The Bush administration also said it will accept foreign assistance. At least 24 nations and international organizations, ranging from Israel to Venezuela and the United Nations, have offered medical teams, field hospitals, military aircraft and other help.

Thanks guys  

Yeah, I just saw a statement by the US ambassador in Sweden that the US has officially requested help from Sweden. The Swedish government has of course promised that it will provide as much help as it can.

I think it goes to show how bad the situation is when the US is in need of external aid to cope with it. Either way, we're all glad if we are able to help.

[walker 0]

There is an interview with the mayor of NO now on CNN International. I have never heard a politician speaking so frankly (or cursing as much) as this man. His people are being left to die while politicians pat each other on the back in press converences. I've been seeing the governer of louisiana on CNN thank congres, the president, other governors her dog cat mother and walt disney but not having a clue about what needs to be done. When asked about  the progres of getting people out of the area the only thing she can manage is "I'd like to thank the president for acting quickly bla bla bla bla" ... guess who wont be re-elected here?

Hi supah

Have to agree with you on that one supah

Just heard him on the CNN he is seriously pissed. He was aparently reporting this directly from the stadium straight up to the Govenor for the last three days and she was ignoring him.

The fact that he is the only politician who has actualy been there to get eyes on and then been ignored. Gob smacked.

Walker

[Tex -USMC- 0]

@ Sep. 02 2005,12:35)]Also don't know if anyone posted this but it bears repeating:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html....02.html

Quote[/b] ]The Bush administration also said it will accept foreign assistance. At least 24 nations and international organizations, ranging from Israel to Venezuela and the United Nations, have offered medical teams, field hospitals, military aircraft and other help.

Thanks guys

Yeah, I just saw a statement by the US ambassador in Sweden that the US has officially requested help from Sweden. The Swedish government has of course promised that it will provide as much help as it can.

I think it goes to show how bad the situation is when the US is in need of external aid to cope with it. Either way, we're all glad if we are able to help.

sup Denoir

Yeah, the aftermath of this hurricane is going to be monumentally expensive, and the fact that the civil administration in most of Louisiana, especially New Orleans, is either corrupt, incompetent, or corrupt and incompetent, does not bode well for the long road ahead.

Also I'd request that you ignore the American pinheads who were complaining about the lack of foreign relief being offered, despite extant news stories listing countries and foreign NGO's extending their aid. A moderately large but extremely vocal swathe of our population is virulently xenophobic, anti-internationalist, and will seize on any opportunity to drive a wedge between the United States and the world at large. Yeah, fuck them in the ear- the rest of us deeply appreciate any and all aid offered and rendered, and we have never considered the aid that the US has extended to other countries in the past to have been on a quid-pro-quo basis.

[Heatseeker 0]

Hi all

I realy thought America could cope with this.

Enough of that though we need to get a full UN operation going there.

*Tents

*blankets

*food and water as well as water cleaning systems

*generators,

*body ID teams

*rescue teams

*helicopters

*FOOD AND AID DISTRIBUTION TEAMS hell send in Oxfam

*Medical Teams, Send in Medison Son Frontier

*Refugee assistance and Rebuild Teams

the whole nine yards, same as if it were somwhere in the Asian Tsunami.

Kind Regards Walker

*FOOD AND AID DISTRIBUTION TEAMS hell send in Oxfam

*Medical Teams, Send in Medison Son Frontier

*Refugee assistance and Rebuild Teams

I agree with these, man power equiped and trained to deal with these type of situations, but for rescue teams, supplies and helicopters i dont think the US is short on those really, quite the oposite infact, i think there is lack of coordination and expertise dealing with this kind of tragedy .

[Supah 0]

Hi all

I realy thought America could cope with this.

Enough of that though we need to get a full UN operation going there.

*Tents

*blankets

*food and water as well as water cleaning systems

*generators,

*body ID teams

*rescue teams

*helicopters

*FOOD AND AID DISTRIBUTION TEAMS hell send in Oxfam

*Medical Teams, Send in Medison Son Frontier

*Refugee assistance and Rebuild Teams

the whole nine yards, same as if it were somwhere in the Asian Tsunami.

Kind Regards Walker

None of those people are going in there with the current semi-civil war level of lawlessness. The Area is awash with groups armed to the teeth shooting at people indiscriminatly. The trickle of national guard troops (1400 a day) isnt going to stop that anytime soon. Untill a certain level of security can be guaranteed sending in aid workers is just providing the militias (for want of a better word) with more targets.

Edit: FEMA Is now claiming not having known about the people at the convention center untill a couple of hours ago ...... while it has been shown on CNN for two days. I saw it, their telling me I in northern netherlands have access, through television, to better intelligence then the FEMA? Ridiculous.

[Balschoiw 0]

Germany´s cancellor Schroeder has interrupted his election campaign to coordinate the aid program for the US. We will send medical personel and installations, field hospitals, ER medical teams, tents and living containers, water regeneration facilities and personel to search for victims and survivors and as a follow up heavy equipment to help rebuilding. As a lot of german aid personel is still in the asian tsunami region it will be not easy to get that all up but he reassured everyone that germany will do whatever it can to help the US people.

For sure, Bush needs to ask him first...

[denoir 0]

The explosion on the Missisipi river front mentioned was a chemical storage facility that blew and apparently some foul-smelling unknown gas has been released.

I'm watching a live webstream from a local NOLA station, WWL and the reporters are almost crying. They just keep repeating how everything is going to be alright, that everything will be rebuilt etc - sounding like they are trying to convince themselves.

Quote[/b] ]FEMA Is now claiming not having known about the people at the convention center untill a couple of hours ago ...... while it has been shown on CNN for two days. I saw it, their telling me  I in northern netherlands have access, through television, to better intelligence then the FEMA? Ridiculous.

Indeed, unbelievable. The Louisiana governor also seems to be completely out of touch with reality.

Ironically, the levies that broke were supposed to have been reinforced these last few years, but the budget for that  (federal ) project was cut by the administration  

Edit: They just showed a formation of Cobras over (I think) New Orleans. That is at least a sign of military presence.

[Supah 0]

Germany´s cancellor Schroeder has interrupted his election campaign to coordinate the aid program for the US. We will send medical personel and installations, field hospitals, ER medical teams, tents and living containers, water regeneration facilities and personel to search for victims and survivors and as a follow up heavy equipment to help rebuilding. As a lot of german aid personel is still in the asian tsunami region it will be not easy to get that all up but he reassured everyone that germany will do whatever it can to help the US people.

For sure, Bush needs to ask him first...

The reason the tsunami aid effort got underway faster was that the countries leaders told the international community they needed help within six hours of the disaster. George W Bush couldn't do that as he had prior engagements at a meeting for bussinessmen in San Diego he had to go to. Like the mayor of New Orleans said in his interview with WWL radio "Flying over the disaster area in airforce one at 4000 feet doesn't do anything to help". The president's visit to the disaster area which is now planned is not usefull either. Instead of coordinating the relief effort GWB is instead choosing to saddle the allready strugling police of New Orleans with his own security. Also the white house is making quite a lot of humbug that they are taking only pool journalists .... why dont you leave the journalists at home and pack that big 747 full of bottled water instead? Or is he just going there to boost his own popularity? Even now international aid has not been officially requested. This might seem a petty fact but without cooperation from the US government's higher echelons it will be hard to coordinate what gets sent over and where it needs to go exactly.

[Apollo 0]

This is an appaling situation ,especially for a country like the US that is on the cutting edge of technoligy ,has superb infrastructure and has a massive productional means of any life sustainable product in such times.

And afcourse really dumb of the Bush administration to cut funding there ,i do not doubt they will be widely seen as responsible for the extent of this disaster ,i hope it severely backfires on them and their policy's ,maybe also the republicans in general.

Funny that Venezuela is one of the first to offer help ,i think i see some hidden agenda there.

I begin to wonder ,if i had been a reporter ,would i rather have liked to be in New Orleans or Iraq?

[walker 0]

Hi all

I just saw this rather sickening sight of Governor Blanco going round yesterday slapping the backs of fellow federal and state politicians for a job well done.

The reporter on CNN who was there on the ground cut her a new one, explaining about the fact that after four days (it was filmed yesterday) they still did not have water and food. None of the promised buses. People dieing and there bodies left to rot and be eaten by rats. The reporter almost swore when she repsonded to that with more platitudes.

She then gave the excuse about they did not know about the people at the Superdome till just then. Hell I live in the UK and I new about it being the rescue point 5 Days ago. [EDIT] Please note I am incorret in this she is refering to the convention center which she was not aware of, My Apologies [/EDIT]

Then she said she had given everyone warning to get out. What about people who are too poor or infirm to use a car? Their situation never entered her head.

Then she said about school busses. The mayor of NO told her three days ago to send every states greyhound busses too but she ignored him.

That woman needs the Sack as does the head of FEMA

The Mayor praised the work of one General who was going round kicking butt and cussing people into action. Replace the FEMA man with him like the Mayor said.

Pissed off walker

[hellfish6 7]

She then gave the excuse about they did not know about the people at the Superdome till just then. Hell I live in the UK and I new about it being the rescue point 5 Days ago.

Not the Superdome, the Convention Center.

[walker 0]

Hi Hellfish6

Thanks for the correction so noted will edit.

Point is still that there were no fleets of buses evacuating people till today 5 days after the disater. There were still 10s of thousands at the Superdome and at the convention center.

That she then slaps all the federal and state politicians backs and acts all high and mighty like "We have already done it." caused the reporter who was on the ground watching a body across the road being eaten by rats to completely loose his rag.

She then had the afrontery to say this is not the time to aportion blame yet with the job undone she thought it was the apropriate for her and her politician budies to aportion praise?

Well it kinda sticks in the throat.

Sadly Walker

[mattxr 9]

WHEN is the world gonna come to our aid?

You do understand we can handle this ourselves?  To think otherwise is treason.  Now put some cock in your walk and know that America can handle anything.  

As for the rest of the forum, appreciate this sarcasm.

America cant handle them selves.. plus your running out of oil.. lmfao!!!! reminds me of Red Storm Rising but the americans..

anyways... When big disasters happen in other countrys the people and the goverment work togther... but noo in america when theres a disaster theres looting and people shooting at rescue workers and costguard choppers and shit and the goverment does fuck all for the first few days lol... the city should of been fully evacuated by now.

The only people who seem to be left stuck in the city seem to be  coloured people.. i heard that this jaz singer [was specking on BBC News 24 to ABC] said that this woman came up to her and asked if there were any white people left in the city becuase its very hard to find any... and she was going on about if bush were to come into this city he wont be here for long or something

Thousands are feared to have perished in the hurricane and floods, or while waiting for help. Come on.. When theres a disaster have you seen any militarty get the order to 'Shoot to kill' at there own people..

I think the way this has been handled is just wrong.. the goverment needs to sort its self out..

Matt [uK].

[hellfish6 7]

Yeah, that Louisiana governor has messed this whole thing up. I assume you heard the Mayor of NO say that everything the federal government and state has said has been BS - that the feds were treating this like a minor event instead of the catastrophic disaster it really is.

Edit - Matt: New Orleans in about 68% black and 26% white and you can imagine who has more money. I don't think that much of the population left in New Orleans had neither the financial means to ecavuate (no car, couldn't afford train/plane/bus) nor did many people see much of an actual need.

I lived through three hurricanes here in Florida last year and nobody I know evacuated (despite the fact that all three were direct hits on my area). It's just hard to take the evacuations seriously sometimes - especially since very few people around here had ever experienced a hurricane before (as they tend to hit southern or northwestern Florida, rarely in the central portion). You never really realize how serious it is until a tree flies by your window and smashes into the apartment next to yours. IIRC the only mandatory evacuations were the people living on the beach or on islands.

[Airbourne Alchaholic 0]

I hate to think this but perhaps the Government are using a "Pave over the area and forget about it" strategy.

On the News I saw an Aid Helicopter hover over some survivors, throw some food/water down at them and leave, no one got out. Hell, it didn't even land!

Stories about a dieing woman crawling towards a police car, then being shooed off by the barrel of a shotgun by the Officer.

Some groups are suggesting that this is the end of America's time as "the leading superpower." Who knows how hard financially the country has been hit (9 out of 18 Oil Refineries offline). Also they've already pulled some units from Iraq to the disaster.

A few people who wern't effected directly that got interveiwed cared more about the raising oil prices than the people dying in the City.

I don't think people realise how bad the situation is, including the President. I blame some media groups of "holding back" some truthes.

From here in the UK it looks like a warzone, I personally though it looked worse than Baghdad, espesially in New Orleans.

Hope things improve soon, I've sent some money to the Red Cross.

Any news about BumRush and his family?

[[aps]gnat 28]

Saw some info on the TV about what the biggest problem is now and will be long into the future ... the levy banks around NO.

- levys have burst in several locations

- NO city is sandwiched between a river and a lake

- NO CBD is BELOW sea level

- levys surrounding city were only built to withstand a category 3 storm and never been upgraded

How long can you live with that under your nose and not think something is seriously going to go wrong sometime?

Anyway, hopes and wishes for the many people caught in this unbelievable event.

[mattxr 9]

Well with global warming and sea levels rising there will be another problem.. the sea levels rising might not look a big threat but what if another storm comes that higher sea level will be a big threat..

[hellfish6 7]

New Orleans is actually one of the oldest cities in the country and, to it's credit, has done pretty well so far. I think the only other major disasters it's had to deal with were fires in the late 1700s. There was really no precedent for what happened.

Still... the idea of living in a city below sea level, sandwiched between two major bodies of water (the Mississippi River and Lake Pontchartrain) and very near the coast never made much sense to me.

I'd like to think that the city will eventually just be abandoned and moved to higher ground, but that's up to the people, government and insurance companies now.

[Montignac Mayor 0]

COST OF IRAQ WAR

United States Entire U.S. $204.6 billion

Local Costs of the Iraq War

New Orleans 151.6 million

Now seriously, I hope that this opens the eyes of many people, so they can see what the government determines priorities...

Btw:

"The Gulf Coast wetlands form a "natural buffer that helps protect New Orleans from storms," slowing hurricanes down as they approach from sea. When he came into office, President Bush pledged to uphold the "no net loss" wetland policy his father initiated. He didn't keep his word. Bush rolled back tough wetland policies set by the Clinton administration, ordering federal agencies "to stop protecting as many as 20 million acres of wetlands and an untold number of waterways nationwide." Last year, four environmental groups issued a joint report showing that administration policies had allowed "developers to drain thousands of acres of wetlands."

And what about this:

<<CORONADO, Calif. - President Bush on Tuesday answered growing anti-war protests with a fresh reason for American troops to continue fighting in Iraq: protection of the country's vast oil fields that he said would otherwise fall under the control of terrorist extremists.>>

From michaelmoore

[SEAL84 0]

From the New York Times today:

Quote[/b] ]Chaos and gunfire hampered efforts to evacuate the Superdome, and, Superintendent P. Edward Compass III of the New Orleans Police Department said, armed thugs have taken control of the secondary makeshift shelter at the convention center. Superintendent Compass said that the thugs repelled eight squads of 11 officers each he had sent to secure the place and that rapes and assaults were occurring unimpeded in the neighboring streets as criminals "preyed upon" passers-by, including stranded tourists.

Mr. Compass said the federal government had taken too long to send in the thousands of troops - as well as the supplies, fuel, vehicles, water and food - needed to stabilize his now "very, very tenuous" city.

Col. Terry Ebbert, director of homeland security for New Orleans, concurred and he was particularly pungent in his criticism. Asserting that the whole recovery operation had been "carried on the backs of the little guys for four goddamn days," he said "the rest of the goddamn nation can't get us any resources for security."

"We are like little birds with our mouths open and you don't have to be very smart to know where to drop the worm," Colonel Ebbert said. "It's criminal within the confines of the United States that within one hour of the hurricane they weren't force-feeding us. It's like FEMA has never been to a hurricane."

Thankfully (read: pfft, yeah right) the governor is happily announcing the arrival of some 300 more National Guard troops, giddily describing how "locked and loaded" they are with their M-16s.

What a goddamn embarassment.

[mattxr 9]

Quote[/b] ]As desperation grows among the thousands stranded without food or water in New Orleans four days after Hurricane Katrina, there are signs of growing lawlessness in the city.

Quote[/b] ]Heavily-armed US troops are being sent in to back local police (pictured)following reports of looting, shootings, carjackings and rape in the city.

Quote[/b] ]

Police said there had been rapes and beatings, and people were now starting to die, in the increasingly filthy conditions and intense heat.

Quote[/b] ]There are still many people stranded across the city and beyond - waiting on the roofs of their homes for help to come.

Quote[/b] ]Sandbags have been dropped in an attempt block up the levees that were breached in the storm, enabling waters to flood the city.

Sandbags wont do anygood need big rocks and boulders..

Quote[/b] ]A BBC correspondent says that 80% of New Orleans is still under water and there is no sign yet of the waters receding.

[Just some images from BBC News]

[shinRaiden 0]

People seem to forget the distances and time required to make things happen.

You see on the news that people are being moved from New Orleans to Houston. For those of you unaquainted with US geography, that's 350 miles, or 562 kilometers. That's at the very least a half day's drive, not counting load up and arrival processing time. Also the buses and what not don't just magically show up over night. It takes them - guess what - the better part of another day to arrive, from where ever they were scrounged. There was a report about a convoy of school buses coming in to shuttle people out. That means somebody had to call around a few days ago, find a school district with operable buses and drivers - which is probably a functioning district with classes, make notification to the student's families that bus service is canceled, make fuel and payment arrangements, round up the buses and drivers, make sure the drivers are equiped to travel into the disaster zone, etc. And do it n times over.

So these evacuations you're seeing with people being bussed out, the coordinations for that were moving probably 3 days ago, when the Fed's started coming in. Let's suppose they can get 50 people on a bus. To move 10k people from one site alone, that's 2000 trips. When the crackheads whine and complain about "the pigs taunting us with buses going by", that's because they won't do math beyond (me + me = me). If they're well enough to stand there and shoot at the military and police, and complain on tv about the intolerant conditions, then they're well enough to go to the back of the line so that the women and children and medically infirm can go first.

For comparable scale, this is like taking the population of Bern, Switzerland, and scattering them from Barcelona to Berlin. It's not going to happen overnight, and any where close to New Orleans is going to be a rough drive to boot.

The Navy and National Guard have moved up aircraft and helicopters, but those can't hold huge amounts of people. The world record - according to Wikipedia - was a Quantas evacuation flight of only 674 people on a 747-400. Those don't magically appear off the flightline either. Any heavy haulers are first waiting to load up with supplies before flying down there, the turn around process which of course takes all day again.

It takes time to gater and organize convoys and supplies. Even if they're preposisitioned and palleted, you still have to load them in the trucks, make sure everyone has their kits, that everyone has been to the bathroom before leaving, lumber down the highway with all the other convoys heading in, cut your way into the city, assess your situation, coordinate with local agencies, blah-blah, long before any supplies reach the people or people get pulled out.

The problem is that the ghetto thugs expect that the world revolves around them. I think I commented previously about the initial 10k in the superdome, then the additional 15k that showed up later. The first group were the decent poor that sought shelter like they were told to, the rest were the 5 finger discounters that got pulled from the streets, the crackheads, the police haters, etc. Of course there's crime, that's an ordinary part of life in the neighborhoods and projects where they come from. It's not like they're suddenly going to have a big change of heart just because their turf washed out to sea.

Frankly, what you're seeing is the dregs of society being thinned out. Those that could and had the sense to left a long time ago. Those that couldn't, but had the sense to pay attention, are being evacuated, and many are now in shelters scattered across an area the size of half of Europe. Basicly inside 3 days too. Those that are left are those that are 'shopping', those that can't leave their pets to save their own lives, and those that are taking the opportunity to turn the police into targets of opportunity.

How often do the newsies really go and live after hours in the projects? It's not like this stuff doesn't happen all the time, it's just that's all there is that's sensational to report, and the disaster difficulties inhibit society's ability to crack down on it leading to localized escalations. Besides, there's priorities as well, rescuing the law-abiding takes precedent over capping the law-abusing.

The only downside to double-dose lead therapy for the criminals is that there's no sufficent morgue capacity for suitablely aggressive operations. That means you'd have to dump the bodies in the river, which is a sure recipie for an epidemic medical disaster. Besides, the human rights crowd would rush in to protect the right of crackhead rapists to shoot at rescue helicopters.

Finally, people are far too spoiled. They have this silly idea that air conditioning is a critical right for human survival. Hmmph. Proper ventilation, and getting outside is enough. Besides, A/C messes up your hydration worse than sweating it out. I grew up in Florida, and we actually kept our A/C off most of the year and just used ceiling fans with the windows open. And we spent a lot of time outside too in the fresh air. And frankly, the air in New Orleans is probably the cleanest it's been in years right now. Give them all shovels and start work crews. If they have outstanding warrants, slap them in chains before a magistrate and send them out as a chain gang. Better that then sitting around shoving and cutting in line for the bus. That's no better than kindergarten behavior, except that their proof of id to buy liquor says they should have finished kindergarten years prior.

[hellfish6 7]

A huge problem with the National Guard is that Louisiana's 256th Mechanized Brigade is currently in Baghdad, so there were very few troops in-state to respond to the crisis. Likewise, Mississippi's 155th Armored Brigade is also in Iraq.

It's actually pretty unusual to have NG units from other states responding to a crisis - when the floods happened in Illinois several years ago, each state's own Guard units responded to their own state's needs - I don't think you'd have seen Ohio NG units in Iowa or Wisconsin troops in Illinois. Now we're seeing the Texas, Arkansas, Oklahoma and even New York Guard units in Louisiana. The time it's taking to realize who they need to call up, getting them all to assemble (remember - Arkansas/Texas/Oklahoma Guard units weren't alerted as their states were safe, so they had to pull everyone out of their jobs) and then transporting them all to New Orleans. It takes time.

[Badgerboy 0]

A BBC chap was trying to draw comparisons between this and the Kobe earthquake, but admitted that New Orleans was certainly 'unique'.

In Japan, the authorities were aware that a major earthquake was likely, and managed to get aid to the area reasonably quickly. Stockpiles were distributed without fuss and rapidly. Secondy, there was an abundance of Civil Obidience. People were helping each other out, there was very little looting or crime, even local Yakuza gangs were helping to distribute aid!

NO on the other hand. They knew a hurricane was coming and fucked up badly. No contingencies, and muddled and slow response and no comms. People the other side of the world watching TV knew more about the situation that the authorities! Finally, the ugly side. As opposed to Kobe, NO is decending into Civil War. People are looting, raping without restraint, and firing at anything that moves. Sniping at hospitals, and firing on military helicopters? You would think it was Baghdad! Police and national guard units have labelled parts of the city 'no go' areas! Criminal thugs now apparantly own the streets!

Could someone explain why in the case of Kobe, everyone stuck together and got to work, and civil law didn't break down, whilst in NO, rats are eating bodies, and the city has turned into a war zone?