JAM3

[cornhelium 0]

Hi mate,

Quote[/b] ]I got a question regarding the name of the rar "JAM3_Fix5.rar". Where threre any udpates that where not mentioned in the first post (Fix1-4)?

Fixes 3 & 4 never actually got released, due to the server problems at OFPEC. Don't worry though, fix 5 incorporates all preceding fixes.

Just replace the JAM_Magazines.pbo and Readme.rtf with the new ones and you're good to go

Cheers,

CH

[Messiah 2]

thanks for the update with the Jam 3 L96 mags

[cornhelium 0]

No probs mate,

In fact, you may as well wait before downloading this update - I've just had a message from RockofSL asking for similar mags in the .338 Lapua/incendiary round, for his new weapon pack.

...I'm just waiting for Rock to give me the right damage values, initspeeds etc and there'll be another, absolutely final update on the way

Cheers,

CH

[honchoblack 2]

Thanks mate

[cornhelium 0]

OK friends,

JAM3, final update. Fixes:

-Proper round count for L96 type mags

-Recoil for .50cal sniper rifles is more manageable, based on RL reports

-UMP45 now engages at proper range

-Added more magazine types for UMP45

-Added .338 Lapua and Armour Piercing Incendiary mags for AWSM sniper rifles

Downloads:

* Update - if you d/led JAM3 after 3rd September 05, you only need this 2.9mb fix

* Full version of JAM3, with all updates included

Big thanks to Sanctuary for hosting these  

OFPEC JAM page should also be updated next week. Thanks to MacGuba and Co.

Installation:

The JAM3_patch6.rar contains just two files:

-JAM_Magazines.pbo              (Modified 29th December 2005)

-Readme.rtf                            (Modified 29th December 2005)

These 2 files contain all updates since 3rd September 05. Simply use them to overwrite your existing JAM_Magazines.pbo and Readme.rtf.

Or, if you're new to JAM3, download the full, fixed version and follow installation instructions in the Readme.rtf

Have fun, and cheers  

CH

[gatordev 219]

Thanks, CH, for continuing to update this great addon. Happy New Year.

[ag_smith 0]

Quite an unexpected find...!

I suggest you bring thist to attention of major website, especially ofp.info, otherwise this update to such an important addon will go unnoticed.

[C4P741N 0]

Whether you like JAM or not, some don't like it's HD method of dispersion, I challenge anyone to find/create a better cross mod unification of magazines. I only hope that JAM or another method of standardizing mags is implemented into ArmA from the beginning. Nothing is quite as annoying as having one teams M16/AK mags not working with another or one handling like an uber iron sighted sniper rifle and the other not.

Good stuff cornhelium and anyone else who had input into this final update.

[zaphar 0]

Okay STGN, I tried out your M4 pack (I found v0.45 on ofp.info; hope it was the latest). Anyway, I have to admit I am impressed.

I had heard of the 'dexterity' value, which makes a weapon take longer to swing around, but I didn't realize how much of a difference it could make (without being annoying, like with the BIS AA launchers). Having that slight delay to bring your rifle on target does help keep it from feeling so... "point & clicky", to coin a phrase.

However, that alone doesn't seem to solve the problem, IMO (although it is a step in the right direction). I'll grant that JAM HD mags are a bit extreme in their dispersion, but Kooky makes the point perfectly: HD roughly simulates all the other things affecting accuracy that can't be simulated by OFP.

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Quote[/b] ]I belive you as a Marine has/had to be able to hit a man size taget 500 meters away, benched on the range? No way you are gonna do that whithin the first 100 rounds with a HD mag.

In the Marines we qualify against (among other things) a target at 500m, which is shaped like a standing man. We shoot this from the prone position, supported by a loop sling, with only cammies and a soft hat. I might roughly guestimate that the average marine hits this target 50% of the time.

However, that range is a totally different environment than combat (in fact the corps has just changed it to be more like combat). You aren't wearing armor, you aren't tired or hungry, your sling is tied around your bicep, and you can very clearly see the target (it is black on a huge white background, standing a few feet off the ground).

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I would think that the best OFP solution would involve a combination of all the above:

(1) more aim 'wobble', especially in standing

(2) higher 'dexterity' values so it is slower to bring weapon accurately on target

(3) enough 'dispersion' to reduce the player's accuracy to real-life levels

(4) enough 'aidispersion' values to make the AI less accurate

Unfortunately #1 can't be fixed by weapon/mag addons, as pointed out, so #3-4 have to pick up the slack. I'm not sure, but wouldn't #2 be configured on a per-weapon basis, not per-mag? If so that would be best, but would require JAM-dependent addons to adhere to a common 'dexterity' system.

For #3, I would approach it like this: I've heard that statistically, your accuracy in a combat situation decreases by some 40%. There is very little in OFP combat that decreases your accuracy, so let's say that in OFP, your accuracy only decreases by 10% in combat.

So you set up a test-fire range in OFP where you can hit a target about 100% of the time with your 0-dispersion weapon (250m standing is like that for me). Next, adjust the dispersion of the weapon so that you miss, say, 30% of the time. Wala! You've now found a high-dispersion value that is based on real-world values, and can thus be considered "realistic".

But for now, JAM is still a huge improvement over BIS stuff, HD or no.

just don't make it "America's Army", when I played that game I could be 5 feet from an enemy, shoot 30rnds of bursts into their center of mass and not kill them. It was friggen nuts, I'm telling you that is very unrealistic, when you're that close, it's hard not to hit. At a distance I could see the burst mode sucking, but not when you're 5 fee away from someone. Any way, I've also noticed that the AI in OFP seems to be really funky when they aim, the take a long time to rotate but once they are aimed at you, they have god like accuracy. This is kind of true though for all the AI's movements, very angled, and not very graceful. I thought it was funny when I was messing around in the editor and was playing; a soviet soldier ran into a US one, and the US soldier unloaded his magazine in a few bursts from point blank range and didn't hit the commie. The commie then shot the US soldier in semi-auto mode and took him out. I thought that was kind of weird, oh well. (it was in FFUR 2005, the Russian soldiers don't fire in burst modes). I hope in Armed Assault the make a lot of fixes to the AI so they don't seem so robotic. The ablility to be somewhat smart would be nice, like using paths that don't run directly into areas where an enemy presence is known. Or hiding behind things and not runing into the open in order to get into formation. I'm hoping that Armed Assult uses something like this mod (I haven't used it, but from what I have read, it's on the right track).

[max power 21]

If you want actual MoA for some small arms up to the 1980s, I can give you some. However, they don't support this 'the player is too accurate' thing. The tests were conducted by an expert shooter, and most of the data is not much over one MoA for most rifles. So we're talking 120mm dispersion over 100 meters. That's like 1/2 of a foot every football field in dispersion.

[CameronMcDonald 146]

True, but surely the data would change (obviously accuracy decrease) for inexpert shooters as well as those under battlefield stress.

[cornhelium 0]

Hi guys,

Quote[/b] ]True, but surely the data would change (obviously accuracy decrease) for inexpert shooters as well as those under battlefield stress.

Indeed. Increasing the dispersion value of a munition to depict the effects of a poor shot, as the JAM team have done with the HD mags, is a "best attempt" rather than an ideal solution. Unfortunately, the ideal solution just ain't available. Every alternative has aspects that will dissatisfy some, from scripting overheads to sight wobble.

Not only that, but there are so many schools of thought about the accuracy a player should be able to achieve, in combat, that it's simply impossible to satisfy them all.

For my 2 cents, I think the answer lies in increasing the aiDispersionCoefX and aiDispersionCoefY values for HD mags, but leaving the actual "dispersion=" value the same as standard. This way, the dispersion would only be increased when fired by an AI, so human players could pick up and use HD mags without having their weapon's accuracy degrade. In theory.

This was something I wanted to look into when working on JAM3, but didn't have time to test properly.

The next stage for JAM might be to post all the data values on a webpage, much like the CAVS team has done, with research references and notes to explain the choices made. Where addonmakers are making rare weapons that JAM doesn't provide for, this would give them a reference to base their values on. Also, it would open the values to debate among the wider community.

Anyway, great that this debate is still going strong and bringing ever more research and experience to the table. Hats off to you guys

Cheers  

CH

[max power 21]

Yes.. This data was only for the actual dispersion of the weapon itself. The inaccuracies created by the shooter should be simulated in weapon handling attributes.

Also note that I think when a weapon is cited as having a 'maximum effective range', that is a range where an average shooter can hit a stationary, mansized target 50% of the time... at least, that is how the numbers work in this book.

[Blackbuck 9]

i have got J.A.M 3 and use it a lot when it comes to my maps but i cant find any j.a.m compatible ump's or 6.8spc weapons are there any of the above in the ofp community or are they there just for the sake of it

[cornhelium 0]

Hi helping_hand,

Quote[/b] ]i cant find any j.a.m compatible ump's or 6.8spc weapons are there any of the above in the ofp community or are they there just for the sake of it

I believe Jackal is making his UMPs JAM compatible in the next version of the SJB Weapons Pack.

As for 6.8SPC and Grendel 6.5, nothing around yet that uses them. Let's wait and see

Cheers mate,

CH

[Blackbuck 9]

thanks that clears some stuff up

[Bobcatt666 0]

Had time to sit and play with JAM3 and some of the jam3 vehicle units. Any chance of the PIVADS M163A2 otherwise known as Vulcan SPAA unit of that getting the correct gun sound? The beast is using effectively the same gataling cannon the A10 is using. Its very noisy, and would seem a simple fix by changing the sound to a vulcan cannon. Most ground troop fear cause you can hear one firing several miles away, the high pitch whine before the growl. Able to slice vehicles in half with it when demiling enemy capatured vehicles after the war to deny them being recovered.

[Blackbuck 9]

the A10 uses the 30mm Gau8 the vulcan / m163 uses the 20mm m161 gatling gun which is derived from the standard aircraft cannon as used in the f16 etc.

as quoted from the world guns website

Modern Gatling guns - pros and cons.

Key advantage of the modern, externally powered Gatling type guns, is the extremely high rate of fire, usually 4 to 6 thousands of rounds per minute (RPM), sometimes up to 10-12 thousands RPM. This rate of fire is necessary to deal with the fast-moving targets, when the engagement time is very short. Such targets are mostly aircrafts, or ground targets, fired at from aircrafts. The downside of multi-barreled systems is they relative complexity, heavy weight, and requirements for external power (electrical, pressured air or hydraulics). There are few self-powered (gas-operated) Gatling type guns, but they still are much bulkier and heavier, than the conventional single-barreled guns. Another drawback of the Gatling-type guns, which is essential for aerial combat, is that the gun requires some time to get on to the full speed (rate of fire) after the trigger is pressed. For the M61 Vulcan cannon, for example, the "speed up" time is about 0.4 second or so.

Modern Gatling guns: some basic data model Country caliber number of barrels Rate of fire, rounds per minute weight, the gun itself power source length peak recoil force (estimated)

XM214 Microgun USA 5.56 mm NATO 6 up to 10 000 15 kg electrical 0.69 m 110 kg (240 lbs)

M134 Minigun USA 7.62 mm NATO 6 4 000 - 6 000 18.8 kg electrical 0.8 m 120 kg (270 lbs)

GShG-7.62 Russia 7.62x54 mm R 4 6 000 19 kg gas operated ?? 120 kg (270 lbs)

YakB-12.7 Russia 12.7x108 mm 4 4 000 - 5 000 45 kg gas operated ?? 520 kg (1140 lbs)

GAU-19/A USA 12.7x99mm 3 1 300 64 kg electrical 1.37 m 120 kg (270 lbs)

M61 Vulcan USA 20 mm 6 up to 6 000 114 kg electrical or hydraulics 1.83 m

GSh-6-23M Russia 23 mm 6 10 000 73 kg gas operated ??

GAU-12/U USA 25 mm 5 4 200 120 kg pneumatics ??

GSh-6-30 Russia 30 mm 6 6 000 149 kg gas operated ??

GAU-8/A USA 30 mm 7 1 800 or 4 200 281 kg hydraulics 2.9 m > 4 ton

[cornhelium 0]

Hi guys,

Quote[/b] ]Had time to sit and play with JAM3 and some of the jam3 vehicle units.  Any chance of the PIVADS M163A2 otherwise known as Vulcan SPAA unit of that getting the correct gun sound?

Hmmm. This might be best handled by one or more of the Config replacement mods. The JAM vehicles are simply BIS vehicles crewed with JAM units (and some JAM ammo in cargo) - they inherit everything else including sound and models from the base config.

The main purpose of the JAM vehicles is for mission consistency, so that JAM units can rearm at trucks and so BIS crew units don't suddenly appear after bailing out from damaged vehicles. We'd be reluctant to increase the filesize to correct vehicle sounds. If one of the config mods such as EECP covered this point, it would fix it across the board. Why not drop Kurayami a line about it?

Cheers mate,

CH

[Bobcatt666 0]

simple Jam came originaly with an updated sound pbo fairly simple fix. just to change the sound. Most of the other mods, still havent figured how the M2HBA2 machine gun works. It irrtating they spent all that time giving the gun nice update and its spiting the spent shell casings out the side instead of the bottom. Mention Pivads at them they boggle. Mostly one of ask see what happens type things, having had hear a few of them durring my time in the army, kinda thought it was high time it got corrected.

[cornhelium 0]

Hi Bobcatt,

Quote[/b] ]simple Jam came originaly with an updated sound pbo fairly simple fix.  just to change the sound.

JAM's sound pbo only ever contained sounds for the small arms and AT ammo in JAM. All sounds to do with the M2, Vulcan etc on vehicles are inherited from the base OFP config, so the most efficient way of getting those sounds changed would be for a config mod such as ECP, EECP, FFXUR or Y2K3 (or all of 'em!) to do it.

Cheers bud,

CH

[Big Dawg KS 6]

Here's a seemingly random question. I was wondering what everyone would think about adding costum shell casings to JAM ammo. I might do this to my own pbo, mainly because I am sick of seeing tiny 5.56 casings coming from .50 caliber weapons...

[Messiah 2]

cornhelium, i was wondering if it would be possible for a similiar system to the grenade vest for grenade launchers being made for hand grenades?

our MP squad uses nades a fair bit, but at the loss of 30 rounds of ammunition, they sometimes get left behind on longer missions, if it would be possible, say, for each slow to hold 3 grenades, i think that would be a nice addition to jam?

[Big Dawg KS 6]

cornhelium, i was wondering if it would be possible for a similiar system to the grenade vest for grenade launchers being made for hand grenades?

our MP squad uses nades a fair bit, but at the loss of 30 rounds of ammunition, they sometimes get left behind on longer missions, if it would be possible, say, for each slow to hold 3 grenades, i think that would be a nice addition to jam?

Maybe that's something to add to my grenade pack...

Maybe not... Hmm, it's somethint to consider.

[guttersnipe 1]

I'm trying to use FFUR Euro, with SJB weapons, (latest version)(for which I have installed JAM3 (fixed/patched to latest version). One problem though - I no longer get any 203 grenade/russian equivalent explosion sounds (the launcher reload/empty click work fine though). I've unpbo'd all three of the relevant files and the sounds seem to be there. Anyone any ideas how to fix/work round?

Yep I know strictly speaking the guys at FFUR recommend running no other mods with their fine piece of work......

Thx