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sputnik monroe

Interesting article on the state of simulations

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SimHQ has an interesting article on the state of simulations.

http://www.simhq.com/_all/all_005a.html

Personally I'm a pessimist and see no future left for the genre. I believe Silent Hunter 3, Oleg Maddox's Battle of Britain, The update of Rowans Battle of Britain, Falcon 4 allied force, and our Beloved Game 2 when it's released, are probably the last true sims.

Publishers refuse to spend money to include manuals with the games any more (A 20 page pamphlet including credits and a seizure warning doesn't count). They've found that they can keep making Wolfenstein 3d over and over with minor face lifts and still make money (Half Life, Doom, Quake, Unreal). Shortly all computer games will be console ports, consoles cannot and never will be able to support a sim like Falcon. The list goes on and on.

The biggest death nail for sims is that they are "complex" and require things like, planning, thinking, reading, and an analytical mind. Today's average Joe is incapable of any of the previously mentioned traits. It strains Joe Schmoe's mind to the limits as it is having to actually push buttons to hop in a circle shooting and steal cars, so trying to sell him a game that utilizes more buttons than 'ASDW 1234 spacebar and enter' is a hopeless endeavor at best. If you tell Joe Schmoe he has to read an instruction manual he'll probably have a heart attack.

So basically since the average joe is a moron, the average game is moronic. That's where the money is, the sim demographic is just too small to be profitable.

I'm sure there will still be a sim or two released once in while by dedicated fans of the genre like the Spanel brothers, but the days when ninety percent of computer games were Simulations is over.

I miss the good old days. Like I said I'm a pessimist, hopefully I’m wrong.

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Well sadly I'm with you.

(I haven't played it yet, but I got Steel Beasts for the reviews of it indepthness. I think that should be listed as well)

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I totally forgot about Steel Beast *Hits self on head*. Steel Beast 2 is coming out soon, I'm probably going to buy it. Steel Beast 1 went with lower grade sprite graphics specifically so they could have lots of units per battle and a massive view distance, which would not have been possible at the time with true 3D graphics. That in my opinion is how All games should be. You decide what the game play will be like then you build the graphics. If top end graphics will prevent you from reaching your game play goal, then you cut the graphics back.

Sadly it seems today they design the graphics then tailor the game play for the graphics. I heard that in doom 3 there can only be around 4 enemies on the screen at once. What's the point then? I mean what good are great graphics if it hogs all the resources that could have been used for great game play.

To me games like Half life are like a blonde Swedish super model, and Flashpoint is like the girl next door. Sure the Swedish super model looks great, but that's all she has going for her. She has no character, she's obnoxious, and is dumber than a doorknob. The girl next door on the other hand looks rather nice actually (but isn't a show off), is fun, and can walk and chew bubble gum at the same time.

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Quote[/b] ]

...But this community, perhaps more so than any other, is often harshly over-critical of even the smallest flaws in a simulation game. Constructive, focused and honest criticism might sting on occasion, but in the big picture its good for the community. Unfortunately, our community is often unskilled in this area of feedback. Excessive bashing of minor issues (or in some cases, non-issues) and abusive, emotionally-charged (even intentionally hurtful) comments send the wrong message to developers about what we want in a game...

Oh yeah? Well I have a thing or two to say about their stereotyping of the community...

banghead.gifsad_o.gifbanghead.gif

Quote[/b] ]

...Surely the hard-core sim consumer would willingly pay upwards of $100 if we knew a new title was going to be a "keeper" in the sense that Grand Prix Legends, Falcon 4.0 or Operation Flashpoint have been...

... or more, for VBS1. Steel Beasts is in the same ballpark iirc, but no addons as of yet.

Quote[/b] ]

...More and more we're supporting very small business ventures that are operating on a "labor of love" mindset, rather than a wealthy, diversified corporation. So when you find a title that you like, make sure to buy a copy for each PC you plan to put it on — and maybe a backup copy as well...

Got a spare CWC and RES, cd's not as good but it's another key. Don't have a console, don't plan on getting one, but I'm still going to buy OFP:XBOX anyway.

Quote[/b] ]

...Regrettably, when it comes to simulations or models of reality, today's computer technology cannot allow for a 1:1 recreation of that reality, no matter how much processing power you apply to the problem. This is as true for multi-million dollar military aviation and automotive simulators as it is for our lowly PCs. Since a true recreation of reality cannot be accomplished on a PC, compromises and tradeoffs must be made when creating a model or simulation. Developers must therefore make decisions on where to focus the fidelity in their title, as well as interpretations on how to emulate a real system's capability or kinematics...

Make it on OpenGL, well-partitioned multi-threaded designed, and a scalable linux build, and scalability no longer becomes a concern. smile_o.gif

Quote[/b] ]

...Getting kids to take the step up from console titles and discover the challenges and rewards of hard-core simulations truly making a long-term investment in the future of our genre. If you have kids or nephews/nieces, follow the "make and take" concept and do a show-and-tell about a historical sim at their school, scout or church group. Find the right context (a big race weekend in your town to show NASCAR Racing 2003 Season, or an air show or national holiday for IL-2 Forgotten Battles or Falcon 4.0), pick the right game, and share with them the enthusiasm and joy you get from the hobby...

When I need a willing helper to see if my latest insane lag map works or not, I run into the other room and ask my 11 year old sister if she wants to drive a tank. "Ooo, can I shoot stuff?" Sure, fine by me, I got my hands full directing a flight of Cobras's on a run into Indian Country. Plus it keeps the bastardized dubbed anime off the TV. wink_o.gif

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I just read today that there's another train simulator coming out. That makes three (this one, "Trainz" and "MS Train Simulator".

Yes, that's right - there are MORE TRAIN SIMULATORS THAN THERE ARE TANK SIMULATORS.

That says all I need to know about the state of simulation gaming.

mad_o.gif

That said, the Russian devs of T-72 are said to be making a new tank sim based on the '82 Israeli-Syrian conflict in Lebanon. It's supposed to include the Merkava, Centurion, M60A1 as well as T-62s, T-55s and T-72s.

That's promising, at least, but it's also a year away.

Edit: ShinRaiden - ever been to the Combat Mission forums? That's probably what the guy is talking about. It's rather (in)famous for it's flaming debates over such obscure things as Bren Gun tripods and the existance of IS-3 tanks in the Fall of Berlin.

While I think that such people who bitch, whine and flame about such things are a tiny minority, they are, in my experience, a very vocal minority.

Had the OFP community had as many people like that, BIS and many of us would have been subjected to endless arguments and topics from people complaining about the odd T-72 model and the oversized BMP models loooooong ago. As such, I think most of the OFP community is (or was, as many of us have grown up with OFP by now) young enough to see past that or not know any better. That might have something to do with the nature of OFP - an infantry FPS, which might not appeal to such a community as that which has grown up around Combat Mission (in many respects an older crowd who probably grew up playing hyperdetailed board and miniature games like Squad Leader).

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Simulations state is still the way its always been, they dont appeal to online gamers and theres no competitive play the individual player no matter how good can still be meat for some newb. And also simulations often simulate somethings that people do not consider enjoyable, eg slient hunter, how much fun inrl would sitting in a tube be for months on end. or lomac where its all about the ability to use the avonics and not fly the plane.

Modern sims tend to feel like simulating using a computer, ofp dosnt really simulate the technology to any degree which is probly why its so enjoyable, how would joe solider feel getting hit by bombs from 10k and having gun ships kilometers away playing turkey shoot. Or hiding in a bush from a tank only to find its got infra red and you have no place to hide.

The most popular of sims will always be the ww2 flight sims, racing and small scale infantry/swat style. People will always be around to make the less popular ones like sail sims, train sims

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I just read today that there's another train simulator coming out. That makes three (this one, "Trainz" and "MS Train Simulator".

Yes, that's right - there are MORE TRAIN SIMULATORS THAN THERE ARE TANK SIMULATORS.

That says all I need to know about the state of simulation gaming.

mad_o.gif

That said, the Russian devs of T-72 are said to be making a new tank sim based on the '82 Israeli-Syrian conflict in Lebanon. It's supposed to include the Merkava, Centurion, M60A1 as well as T-62s, T-55s and T-72s.

That's promising, at least, but it's also a year away.

Edit: ShinRaiden - ever been to the Combat Mission forums? That's probably what the guy is talking about. It's rather (in)famous for it's flaming debates over such obscure things as Bren Gun tripods and the existance of IS-3 tanks in the Fall of Berlin.

While I think that such people who bitch, whine and flame about such things are a tiny minority, they are, in my experience, a very vocal minority.

Had the OFP community had as many people like that, BIS and many of us would have been subjected to endless arguments and topics from people complaining about the odd T-72 model and the oversized BMP models loooooong ago. As such, I think most of the OFP community is (or was, as many of us have grown up with OFP by now) young enough to see past that or not know any better. That might have something to do with the nature of OFP - an infantry FPS, which might not appeal to such a community as that which has grown up around Combat Mission (in many respects an older crowd who probably grew up playing hyperdetailed board and miniature games like Squad Leader).

I don't follow the Trainz community much due to a little thing called VBS whistle.gif but last I checked they announced a major course change just recently.

Iirc, they either were the contractors who made MSTS, or were the guys who made all the tools that actually gave it functionality and content. Weird Auran-M$ relationship vaguely resembling BIS-CM atm... Anyhoo, they had a paralell sim called Trainz. There's a lot of overly simplified objects and such, but if you have the right touch surveying and then run in-cab it can be absolutely stunning. The spline-based vector objects, as well as scalable and rotateable texturing is quite convient as well.

However, they've announced a total new directional shift. With the next gen engine, they're switching to a scalable platform. While there will be a "cheap" game store version, that technically will be the lite edition, then there will be a pro edition costing quite a bit more and either direct marketed, or sold through railroading hobby stores.

If you run the marketing demographics, obviously greater revenue is in the general gaming channels. The subtle difference though is that in the lower-overhead simulation market, a substantially greater portion of the overall lesser revenue goes to the developer, along with less calendar and marketing pressures and more design control.

Secondly there is the not entirely unrelated of engine development and licensing. If you read the fine print, a slice of every dollar of revenue going into HL1 went to id as parts were based on the Quake2 code. How much work/money did id have to put out? Not all that much. So their situation is now one where John Carmack can do what he likes - design planetary defense training systems for the impending Strogg's invasion - and have other people bring him sacks of money for it.

Admittedly, the market demographics for serious simulation systems and their more complex controls, tactical orientation, and strategic interfaces is less than the hack-and-slash level-up games that are cranked out yearly in a churn-and-burn fashion by the stock market driven megadevs.

Perhaps the solution to this is for the various industrys and devs to sit down and develop an infrastructure and API so that diverse catagory games can become interoperable. I for one would love sit at a machine running VBS, order a full bomb wing B-52 saturation bombing raid on a BF2 session, then open a transdemensional rift and fastrope in from a Blackhawk a bunch of orcs from WoW to clean up the town. Not that this would be the theme of every night on the server, just a musing of how to get revenge on the myriad hordes of rabid zombie n00bs and Korean mafia-backed internet cafe rings.

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Edit: ShinRaiden - ever been to the Combat Mission forums? That's probably what the guy is talking about. It's rather (in)famous for it's flaming debates over such obscure things as Bren Gun tripods and the existance of IS-3 tanks in the Fall of Berlin.

While I think that such people who bitch, whine and flame about such things are a tiny minority, they are, in my experience, a very vocal minority.

Uh, I agree. I signed up there and looked around for a bit, but they take some things way too intensly. Even if it isn't represented in the game, they want it represented in the numbers. Always bickering about the most obscure things, as you say. Left mainly in bemusement, looked back, and left instead more confused.

I miss manuals, even if they were filler material or useless. Janes ATF had a manual, but despite being one of the easiest SIM's I've ever encountered, it had pages of dogfighting maneuvers and the such. I also miss the older RPG's or strategy games that had huge manuals, mostly on the universe. Homeworld's manual was a pleasent shock, being so huge and full of information. Clan backgrounds, ship design info, history of the planets, etc. Things you'd never even think about.

I tried the LOMAC demo, and was so very lost without a manual. I fiddled with settings until I found something comfortable, but even then it was hard to even switch to the right weapon. It was cool, having a mirage kick my ass eight times in a row for my once catching it by surprised with a missile. Makes me want to try Falcon, which my brother has downstairs. Heard it's got a whole load of patches and stuff, so smile_o.gif

After watching The Beast awhile ago, I've been in some need of tank action. I'm hoping they're releasing a demo for T72BOF. Looks awsome. Do they have multiplayer? It sounds like fun having online players controlling each station facing either fellow tankers or AI controlled tin cans. I'm an infantry man myself, but I'm willing to strap myself into a coffin sometimes.

Overall, I agree. The market is becoming less and less inclined to try and put effort into simulator games and instead drop the money into more profitible and easier to make shooters that anyone will pick up. Hell, I'm one of those 'anyones' whistle.gif As long as the words "16-64", "Shooter", and "Online" are in a games features then it will most likely be gobbled up by the teeming masses that do not seem to try anything else. I don't hold it against these people, they're no more dumb and zombie-like than we are. Sim games for the majority require a bit of thinking and skill in the hands of the player (and patience), of which in todays point of view eats too much time up. Not very many people are willing to spend four hours trying to figure out a game and then go to sleep. I am, but I'm also a night owl.

All I can say for simulators is really: doin the best they can. With a more limited market than Trainz, then I can see a situation where money will be scarce. Hopefully more will be made, but it probobly won't be for a long time now.

As for Console Ports, uck. Only one or two have actually worked, the rest fail miserable as the cross-platform control and system issues become apparant. PC always seems to be the last to get anything to. (Speaking of ports, I actually still have the 10 Minutes Halo E3 preview before Microsoft ported it to Xbox. Looked better then than it does now)

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Its not surprising that the new generation is getting dumber by the minute so the large corporations makes games for dumb people instead of complex and reallistic games (like flight simulators ...and OFP). But I thought the 20-45 years group had the most shopping-power huh.gif

Is'nt that us?

Why make games for those who rarely can afford to buy them?

I don't think complex games will go away. I think we're at the bottom right now. There are more complex games and simulators in development now than it was a year, 2 years or even 3 years ago. The public is longing for more complex games. There has'nt been a great helo sim since '97 (Janes LB2). Eagle Dynamics (LOMAC) are planning on making a AH-64 A or D after they've made the KA-50 addon. "Game2" is in development. Fighterops is in development and it goes on and on if you actually look past the large commercial BF2, Doom and HL2 headlines on every news-site.

I think the sim-community has a bright future compared to a few years ago. Sure its darker now than 8 or 10 years ago, but I think (and hope) we might aswell see those times again as more people grow tired of the mindless games.

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I just read today that there's another train simulator coming out. That makes three (this one, "Trainz" and "MS Train Simulator".

Yes, that's right - there are MORE TRAIN SIMULATORS THAN THERE ARE TANK SIMULATORS.

*Bows to AEF-Kampagne Mod* notworthy.gifnotworthy.gifnotworthy.gif

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Quote[/b] ]Posted on June 25 2005,12:33

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote[/b] ]Quote (Hellfish6 @ June 24 2005,05:11)

I just read today that there's another train simulator coming out.

yeah! it is Train Master!

I have seen the videos. wish it is a MSTS2 biggrin_o.gif

Actually, there will be FOUR Train Simulators in the next year. I have it on the best authority that Train Artisan Train Simulator is still in development, and from what I saw last year it looked excellent, and had a good multiplayer feature too.

I remember games such as "iPanzer 44" and an Abrams game - the guide books were so thick I could have kept warm all winter burning them!!

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I had ipanzer 44 but I couldn't figure it out. I felt like a dumb ass. Later I tried SSI's (now there was a company)Panzer Commander but I never felt like I had any control over the tank and it felt like no one followed orders.

I've always wanted to play a good WW2 tank simulator and I enjoy in depth simulations, I just could not for the life of me figure those two games out.

That last one I tried was Panzer Elite. I have heard lots of good things about it. Sadly it ran super fast on my computer even after patching it and sorts of help from their community. It only cost me 5 dollars used, since it didn't work though I traded it in for credit towards IL2 Forgotten Battles.

I've always wanted to play a good tank sim. The only one I've really truly played though was Armored Fist (the original) back on my 486 66mhz. Hardly a realistic sim, actually almost hard to call it a sim period. I some times consider Microprose's (Now there was another great company)M1 Tank Platoon 2 if I ever see it used.

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I think the sim-community has a bright future compared to a few years ago. Sure its darker now than 8 or 10 years ago, but I think (and hope) we might aswell see those times again as more people grow tired of the mindless games.

The point as I see it is that 10 years ago, the computer gamers were quite a different community. Nowadays, everyone has a computer, so market strategy is to sell shallow, mass products oriented on mentioned "average Joe".

It will never change to better, as the gaming industry already grew up to the size of movie or music industry, and like in movie or music we have to pick the few pieces that are worth it. The only difference I see is that with the current state of technology, music or movie can be made alot cheaper than it used to be, so enthusiastic and creative amateurs can do it.

For simulator games field as for other non-so-profitable genres I see equivalent in strong fanbase, upgrading already existing games with new content. And seeing how wonderful Flashpoint community is, I now surprisingly came to optimistic conclusion too.

Heil to the Addonmakers, Missoinmakers and Modmakers! notworthy.gif

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Quote[/b] ]Posted on June 25 2005,12:33

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote[/b] ]Quote (Hellfish6 @ June 24 2005,05:11)

I just read today that there's another train simulator coming out.

yeah! it is Train Master!

I have seen the videos. wish it is a MSTS2 biggrin_o.gif

Actually, there will be FOUR Train Simulators in the next year.  I have it on the best authority that Train Artisan Train Simulator is still in development, and from what I saw last year it looked excellent, and had a good multiplayer feature too.

I remember games such as "iPanzer 44" and an Abrams game - the guide books were so thick I could have kept warm all winter burning them!!

Oh, damn, the 5th train sim coming... it is the actual MSTS2 developed by KUJU, and its name is Rail Simulator, lol

http://forums.flightsim.com/ts....w_topic

welcome.gif

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Points at the vast waste of money that is EA.

Always wondered how they could sell crap like MOH for Å35 with "1 new exciting weapon!!11"

http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/review/R16608.html

looks like 11 year olds will soon have the purchasing power to spend even more money on EA. Result? Gaming industry becomes stagnant, as new game is just old game with new name and a few alterations.

"But don't go on straight ahead and think that just because it doesn't have superb graphics, MoH is crap. In fact, once you play the game, you'll find that the developers had a good idea and that the graphics really suit the game. Remember, we're in 1945! And you won't find such things as plasma guns and other hi-tech weapons in MoH, you'll just have to get used to your regular guns, rifles and a not-so-powerful but great for that time shotgun."

i would say that superb graphics are the least of MOH worries... rofl.gif

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Personally, I have good faith in BattleFront.com when it comes to good (military) simulators. The community may be not the most constructive one, but BattleFront has continued to publish deep, high-quality games, where graphics are hardly a priority. And they're quite cheap too - usually around $35.

(Incidentally, should anyone feel like a game of Combat Missions PBEM, PM me biggrin_o.gif )

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It strains Joe Schmoe's mind to the limits as it is having to actually push buttons to hop in a circle shooting and steal cars, so trying to sell him a game that utilizes more buttons than 'ASDW 1234 spacebar and enter' is a hopeless endeavor at best. If you tell Joe Schmoe he has to read an instruction manual he'll probably have a heart attack.

Maybe Joe Shmoe is like me, and has a job and family to take up alot of his time. Gaming is suppose to be entertainment. There is a point were it becomes over consuming.

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Quote[/b] ]Maybe Joe Shmoe is like me, and has a job and family to take up alot of his time. Gaming is suppose to be entertainment. There is a point were it becomes over consuming.

True, many do not have the time to spend on the planning and patience, teamwork and tactics, not to mention the placement of raw firepower necessary in sims.  But then they don't achieve the same level (or maybe I should say 'type' ) of satisfaction we get.  There are definately times that I need to blow something up, but can't spend more than 20-30min late at night, or I'll be dead on my feet the next day.  So I play a run-and-gun type of game, and it's enough to sate my digital cravings.  But when I can, there's nothing better than a 2 hour mission skulking BEL, and blowing the satchels I placed inside a well defended camp.  People are different, and I believe there will always be those that can't take the blithe FPS for more than 15min.  We'll rope them in to game 2, I'm sure... biggrin_o.gif  whistle.gif  pistols.gif

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Well since ofp2 has decent graphics maybe it will attract more gamers, and maybe get them into sims. confused_o.gif

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Quote[/b] ]Posted on June 25 2005,12:33

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote[/b] ]Quote (Hellfish6 @ June 24 2005,05:11)

I just read today that there's another train simulator coming out.

yeah! it is Train Master!

I have seen the videos. wish it is a MSTS2 biggrin_o.gif

Actually, there will be FOUR Train Simulators in the next year.  I have it on the best authority that Train Artisan Train Simulator is still in development, and from what I saw last year it looked excellent, and had a good multiplayer feature too.

I remember games such as "iPanzer 44" and an Abrams game - the guide books were so thick I could have kept warm all winter burning them!!

TMTS vids

http://www.raildriver.com/download/RailDriver/TMTS_01.zip

http://www.raildriver.com/download/RailDriver/TMTS_02.zip

TAsim vids

http://www.trainartisan.com/TrainAr....st1.mpg

http://files.ea.com/downloa...._02.mov

http://www.trainartisan.com/TrainAr....st2.mpg

http://www.trainartisan.com/TrainArtisan/baseimages/TAsim_C449W.mpg

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