philcommando

[MilitiaSniper 0]

lol! wow! calm down militia.

No one is asking or forcing you to pay for anything.

No matter how good a proposal can be, it is the market forces that determines, not you or me, but you and i will always have the freedom of choice, the choice to pay or dont pay, to donate or not to donate, for addons, missions, scripts and even BIS's addon packs.

Market forces will also determine what we will get and what we dont get.

Have faith in the 'market'. It is the only truth in the commercial world of who succeeds and who fails.

So relax and go enjoy the afghan mission hunt you so creatively created. I sure did  

Don't get me wrong Phil.

But this game became what it is, due to people like you!

If it wasn't for addon makers like yourself.

I would have stop playing along time ago.

And I for one and most Thankful to all you addon makers.

But if we have to pay for addons.

OFP will die before the weekend.

How many of us would pay?

BIS should hire some of you addon makers to make stuff for the next game.

Because yall's work is way far better than BIS.

And BIS should hire some you the better mission makers.

To make missions, so maybe we can get an earlier release date for the next version.

I'm sorry Phil for jumping your case.

I didn't mean to go off like I did.

So can ya forgive me bro?

I'm glad you enjoyed the hunt.

I enjoy your ships alot!

I would love to make a modern version of Japan attacking the pacific islands again.

With your ships and BOH Mod!

That would be a good campaign!

Sincerely, MilitiaSniper

[[aps]gnat 28]

As can already be seen here in a way, Money always #$@@$ things up  :P

Couple of question u can ask yourselves;

- Why is it that we are still EVEN talking, let alone playing this game considering its age ?

- Why is the Fanbase so strong ?

- Why does BIS/BIA get so much respect ?

- Why is it that VBS will never be as strong ?

- Why will I buy ARAS ?

My view: Because of the community: WHY?: Because it open and free of the uglyness Money brings to every side/every point of view.

Money's not "Bad", its just bad in this situation.

Offtime:

Quote[/b] ]just like with communism... greate system,but not for ppl.

hehehe    yep like that too.

As Sanctuary said;

Quote[/b] ]I continue to not see why you think "money for fans" is a must to keep the OFP serie alive.

Why not ask "money for mission makers" too, without missions all those addons you want to make money with will just keep the dust.

Agree total.

Same for MP play (which is where I tend to be), All the FREE servers are built around free addons. Without one, the other would not exist.

(All that aside, what does surprise me is that BIS didn't jump on the band-wagon and release a couple more addon packs .... I'm sure 1 or 2 would have not un-balanced the "not again/what a rip-off" and "whoah - cool support!" per above    )

Bottom line, Im not part of this community for money, Im here because it interests me, I learn stuff and hope that others enjoy or find useful anything I contibute.

[Pathy 0]

Once you add money in your inviting a whole host of problems.

I can already imagine all the issues that would come up sooner or later now. Mod teams with one guy making off with the donations, questions of how to divide it up (i helped with x texture, so i should get....), problems with permissions (if you want to use our x addon you have to pay us blah), ect. It´d ruin any sense of trust and sharing in the community IMO.

I wouldnt want money for doing something for fun anyway.

[AKM 0]

From Kenji. (RHS Modeler, Texture, Script, Animation Artist, All-Around Good Guy, etc.)

--

--

Yes, it does seem to me that everything he has to say comes with some kind of drawing. I'm just the messenger, but my own personal opinion is that paying for an addon is a bad friggin' idea and would end up fragmenting the community.

[philcommando 0]

For those who feel very strongly about the subject, or have the misconception that i am pushing for addons to be paid for, please vent your frustrations on me, not on others for their views. Please allow them ALL to share their views, good or bad. I started the thread and am solely responsible for it.

While there will b still addonmakers who are giving free addons, and the reasons for delays even though they dont owe us anything, which could be up to 3 years, i sincerly hope that you wont take them for granted for their efforts.

Personally, i had feel guilty each time i downloaded an addon and enjoyed it so much. It is someone's work, time and effort, which even paid BIS addons could not match. The sportmanship side of me feel it dont seem fair for the addonmaker, and feels that there may be someway we can help and show tangilble appreciations for their works so that they may continue to astound us with more good quality stuff.

In the event someone feels i am talking about my own addons, lol!..let it be known again my own addons are crap works fit for recycle bins. The kind of good quality addons i am talking about are those from DKM, Col Klink, CSLA, TomiD, and a whole long long list of guys.....

Anyone who feels a need to thrash or flame or troll someone, let it fall on me.I will not repeat the reasons for starting this thread, nor change anyone's perception on the continued state of affairs in the community.

[sputnik monroe 102]

I just look at it this way... how and addon is born.

Addon maker: "Man I love this game, I wish it had some South African soldiers in it though. I know I'll make some for it."

later on the Flashpoint1985 forums...

Addon maker: "Hi guys here's some early screenshots of some South African Infantry I'm making."

Forum member: "sweet, when is the release date?"

Addon maker: " When it's done"

Forum Member: " You should include Rhodesian infantry in the pack here's some screenshots."

Addon Maker: "what ever."

3 years later

Addon Maker: "Hi guys I'm pleased to announce the release of my South African troops. I hope you enjoy them as much as I do"

Forum Member (light side): "Thanks, this is great I did find a few bugs though, there is a missing texture yadda yadda"

Forum Member (dark side): "Sorry man these suck, yadda yadda."

Any way before I go too off topic, basically a addon is something you make because you want to, you like the game and it's one of your hobbies. You play flashpoint and you create stuff for it. Some people just play flashpoint, others play online, some create web sites, two guys make missions, and some do a combination of several of the above.

Addon making isn't a profession. It's simply one of the many things you can do with Operation Flashpoint: Cold war Crisis, by Bohemia Interactive Studios.

I mentioned in my strange story a (dark side) and (light side) forum member. In my opinion the addon maker in the example story would be a (light side) addon maker.

Addon maker (light side): "I like this game but I'd like to see X in it, I know I'll create X for it, if it's good enough I might even release it on the internet."

Addon maker (dark side): "Hmmm there are no USAF PJ's I bet I could get paid to make some."

[Pathy 0]

Nobodys thrashing anyone, but the moment you add in money, it gets complex. Imagine, one guy makes an addon. He accepts donations. But along the way, he´s had config help from addonmaker A, addonmaker B helped him with some texture troubles he was having, ect.

What happens when the author has recieved money for his addon, and the people who helped him start asking "hey, wheres my cut?"

Same with addon teams,no, especially with addon teams. How do you divide up money? One guy made the model, the other textured it. Which do you deem more valuable? Who spent most time and effort on the addon?

Then as i said before, well, this community works better when people share existing content. I am making a F350 jeep for the IrDF pack for example. It includes a few weapons given permission to use, from a few different addon studios, but now suppose people had been making money from donations on these addons or parts of. When i ask for permission, would people think "If hes getting donations partly based on our work, we should recieve a cut"? Therefore would i get charged for using these parts? If i was going to be, maybe id make my own. Add a month or so onto the addon making time. Negative result.

Donations....sounds on the surface a good idea, nobody has to pay for addons, but if they want to show thier gratitude they can...right?

But then factor in all the mess, the incidents, ect, that would crop up around this. I can already see it splitting up teams and the like over disputes. Well that would slow down and reduce quality if everyone ended up doing everything themselves for fear of having to split the money. Hell, i can even see people threatening to sue if donations were brought in. It would get really messy, fast.

Nice idea at first glance but it´d do more damage than good.

[CanadianTerror 0]

Quote[/b] ]Personally, i had feel guilty each time i downloaded an addon and enjoyed it so much. It is someone's work, time and effort, which even paid BIS addons could not match.

I think enjoying the addon IS the point.

If everyone in the community contributes their time in some way or another (that can)...THAT is what keeps addons, missions, maps or whatever going and that is what keeps the game going.

I wouldnt take money for doing something I like doing for fun because then you just turned it into a job.

If people got money in any way, I wouldnt want to see what people would expect from addonmakers at that point.

You think they are demanding now?

If people like mr. Chris Death up there cant understand this...then theres really nothing else that I could say.

[-IT-Q- 0]

First of all, i have to say i really dont like the subliminal tone of some the pro-donations reps here:

by presuming other people's opinions as unfair and inappropriate doesnt make look you good and help you on your position - if things get out of order, admins will sort it.

i just want to toss in some points:

~ what about scripters, missionmakers, league-admins and others - are they "less worth"?

~ i really wish you guys to understand that people's thanks and recognition in the best you can get

~ you better try to cooperate more with the scene around you - like getting your addons used more by leagues and missionmakers

~ i am sorry, your time investment isnt an argument at all - its your descision, if you want to contribute for free to the community like hundred thousands others

~ if you really do want to get money for it, get professional and you might earn money with it

best regards

[UKFMav 0]

I just flicked through this topic.

Paying for addons is ridiculous.

[Desert-Rat 0]

My view is that if anyone took money for his addons that the community or fans of these game will go down and that could be one point that nobody will play this game anymore

i don't like the idea of take money for addons , in no other game you have to pay i think

[Chris Death 0]

Well, i come to the conclusion now that it makes

absolutely NO SENSE to post in this thread anymore, as

ppl seem not to be able to read what others write.

Almost every post on the last 2/3 pages show me this fact

clearly - off course there are a few exceptions who shouldn't

feel guilty now.

I repeated more than one time, that my opinion doesn't stand

for: pay for addons, but ppl seem to ignore this.

I know it's like that: you start reading by the last posts, then

just to know what it's about  you read the first post of the thread, maybe one or two of the following posts, and then jump over to the reply button.

to everybody who wants to reply to my post now: please

take your time to read at least everything what i posted

before you make answers on my posts - shouldn't be too

much of effort.

:edit - typo corrected

~S~ CD

[philcommando 0]

Gamemakers from other sites have been known to use other nicks and move around in other competitors site to pick up tips and hints to improve their own game.

OFP is a greatly admired game and the envy of several other gamemakers. Nothing would make their day better than to see OFP divided and deprived of its huge community support or let it slowly dwindle and die, talented folks moved over to their sites.

I guess most had their say, sublimal or whatever thrash it is called -its only sublimal if one's mind is twisted to thank in that manner. I know not cos i and most folks here only talk straight. Only time will tell if my concerns were genuine or a 'chicken little's sky is falling' story, but let it be known the effort to TRY to change the downward spiral tide was made here on this day.

I thank all for your views. May it all rest as each has given his/her points . Lets part with pleasant memories of the times we had before it turns ugly.All the best

[hardrock 1]

Hm I didn't get your original post as "let's pay for addons" suggestions, but rather to enable addon makers to publicly receive donations, which I'd find a great idea. Of course, as someone else said, addon studios already receive donations now and then, but that's only for some I guess. I think it would be great if donations would be more advertised, that everyone can download and use the addons, but also has the clear opportunity to pay any sum of money for the addon, if he likes it. Once people have an easy option to donate, they'll do it more often, since as it is now, it would be much to much effort for gamers to find out how to donate to a certain addon maker or studio, so they don't even start thinking much about it.

[Ironsight 1]

I think it would be great if donations would be more advertised, that everyone can download and use the addons, but also has the clear opportunity to pay any sum of money for the addon, if he likes it. Once people have an easy option to donate, they'll do it more often, since as it is now, it would be much to much effort for gamers to find out how to donate to a certain addon maker or studio, so they don't even start thinking much about it.

So what you're basicaly saying is that every mod team should have a PayPal donation button?

[offtime 0]

I think it would be great if donations would be more advertised, that everyone can download and use the addons, but also has the clear opportunity to pay any sum of money for the addon, if he likes it. Once people have an easy option to donate, they'll do it more often, since as it is now, it would be much to much effort for gamers to find out how to donate to a certain addon maker or studio, so they don't even start thinking much about it.

So what you're basicaly saying is that every mod team should have a PayPal donation button?

or 50 advertisement popups on theyr webpages

[remcen 0]

ok, i think most ppl agree that paying for addons isn't a good idea for various reason which i don't want to repeat now.

btw i personally don't want to be paid either.

what led PC to the paying-suggestion was the observation that there are fewer addons produced nowadays than there used to be.

IMO that's due to the shrinking community, a fact that noone can deny and which is quite natural for such an old game like ofp.

so the first solution is attracting more people to play ofp again/at all. this would eventually lead to some few of them start making addons perhaps- would be quite hard i admit. i think with ArAs coming out we'll see some relief in this field.

plan b: make more out of the existing community! maybe today's learner turn out to be the master of tomorrow

there are certainly ofp players around, who want to make addons, but:

- don't understand the tuts

- understand them but think they won't be good enough so never start an addon at all

- understand them, think they are too bad when they start and never publish anything or maybe maky a crap addon, get bashed -> become discouraged -> never try making an addon again.

for example when i started making addons about two years ago, i never thought i would reach the level i am at now. compare the very first im:uc teaser pack (feb 03 i think) with the new one (~ march 04). after that i tried making textures for armored stuff, although i always thought that this is a thing i'm completely crappy at. nevertheless it looks quite good imo.

i don't want to praise myself here but in the opposite want to say: if i even can make addons then everybody can definetly!

ok,... therefore the solution to 'make more out of the existing com' mainly affects addon makers IMO:

-write more tuts, preferably in english AND your mother tongue -> share your knowledge!

- encourage newbys to carry on, no matter how crappy their first addon might be. maybe make an addon-maker newby board. and please don't say: 'it's all in the existing tuts'. many ppl don't speak enough english to fully understand them and ppl tend to read texts on monitors a lot less carefully than texts on papers.

if you say: well... we can't support newbys more than we do now, then you have to accept the situation as it is now.

to sum it up:

1. propaganda for ofp

2. more newby-support

[hardrock 1]

I think it would be great if donations would be more advertised, that everyone can download and use the addons, but also has the clear opportunity to pay any sum of money for the addon, if he likes it. Once people have an easy option to donate, they'll do it more often, since as it is now, it would be much to much effort for gamers to find out how to donate to a certain addon maker or studio, so they don't even start thinking much about it.

So what you're basicaly saying is that every mod team should have a PayPal donation button?

Exactly. Giving people the opportunity to pay but not forcing them to would be the best solution to this topic IMO. That way maybe the one or other pays some euros for an addon, which would give addon makers a bit more than only honour and respect (looking at the download numbers, often 2000+) and which would also encourage them to improve their skills and really bring out high-quality addons instead of rush crap, made within two days and released out of boredom.

[remcen 0]

this too, involves problems. i think it was pathy who already mentioned the problem of inner-mod distrubution or even the abuse of the money by one mod member(s).

if the mods cope with this problem which some seem to do - fine. it is the mods' choice if they put a paypal button on their page like ofpec or not.

so where's the difference? everything will be the way it is now. that doesn't contribute to solve PC's (and of course the com's) problem of too little good addons lately.

[SWIFT88 0]

OR NOT............. I think Editing Flashpoint is your own decision. You know you shouldnt be selling addons, or missions but you still dont get the message.....

understandable mod leaders etc have invested in money to get information..... But i have to admit.. Whos choice was it?

I personally do it because i enjoy it....plus it allows me to talk to alot of sound chaps, about some-thing i enjoy.

wheres the inspiration gone?

[Apollo 0]

this too, involves problems. i think it was pathy who already mentioned the problem of inner-mod distrubution or even the abuse of the money by one mod member(s).

if the mods cope with this problem which some seem to do - fine. it is the mods' choice if they put a paypal button on their page like ofpec or not.

so where's the difference? everything will be the way it is now. that doesn't contribute to solve PC's (and of course the com's) problem of too little good addons lately.

Well the difference is that the contributor can make some demands ,it could be good to have some gaps filled up in the Ofp community ,for ex. there are few missions comparably to addons ,somewhat understandable as mission making isn't always the most fun thing.

However the demands of the contributor's would force the addon maker engaging in some task for donations to make that specific addon or mission to a specific setting or detail and quality ,so if some people for ex would like contributing some money to get more good missions made ,then this system can get them worth for his money.

Basicly people are contracted to make a free addon ,actually yes this makes addon making proffesional rather than hobbey , So what? ,think about the fact that one addon maker wouldn't earn by far as any proffesional working in the private sector ,and yet he's there making addons of certain specifications on demand of contributor's ,seems like a very effeciant deal to me .If we buy an expansion pack of a company ,wich usually only are addons anyway ,the community is going to pay much more for the work on the addons than with a few donations for low labour cost addon makers.

On the other hand their are some very young guys out there with talent ,students mostly ,who live on a short budget and could really like such a donation.

Sure a somewhat older working guy who makes addons as hobbey could see such donations as irrelevant to his budget anyhow so he would continue it as a hobbey ,but then the addons he makes are all to his discretion ,the community can not demand anything from the hobbey addon makers ,and few addon makers will work on the more mundane tasks that are yet sometimes in high demand.

The point is that atleast certain addons in high demand get done ,hobbyist do what they chooses ,wich isn't always in the immediate interrest of a game community ,and addon makers trying to get donations will have to be very proffesional and will not earn by far as much as a private proffesional working at such stuff.

For young talent this can be a good thing ,especially if they are aiming to work as a proffesional later ,and the demand is there to.

And frankly ,add to this that this system can prevent a lot of redundancy ,not only for the ofp community ,but multiple Fps gaming community's.

Many ofp addons could get ported to other games and vice versa ,it draws the conclusion that addon makers in general working at various games could eliminate a lot of redundancy by creating base models and texture's for all games to be ported to ,while the donations of various gameing community's could be lumped toghether to just for this form of redundancy ellimination.Afterall base models are made on demand and released free after completion ,they will have a minimal cost for a maximal use ,donaters will strive for the ellimination of redundancy as it is in their best interrest ,and demands for adons will take this in mind.

Take it from an other perspective ,gamers over the world at this stage pay a lot of money for games ,the gaming industry is rich and proffesionals are well paid ,but who sais amateur artists wouldn't be able to produce much more than proffesional company's for a much lesser prize? If you think of that ,then you might see community investment in amateur artists as a much more effeciant investment than in a game of a game company or an expansion pack.Afcourse it has it's limitations ,and a lot has to get managed right to get it all working ,but there are enough wise people in the ofp community.

Because yes ,money can make conflict ,but then even withought money there is conflict anyway between various addon makers about the use or credits on some addon.Once they work for donations they will be expected to act professional ,if addon makers want to coorperate on a contract or prize theyll have to make sure they can trust theyr partner ,but then it's already like that in hobby addon making to.And a contract can be set ,see the addon makers only get the money on completion ,on wich the institution can analyse who should get exactly how much for what (unless there is an agreement among the addon makers themselfs) ,and if the addon maker worked from an base model of an other addon maker he will either have to get written agreement that he can use the base model or the institution will pay the creater of the original addon a part for his work.

Now yes ,there would be still some conflict ,you can never elminate that ,but that doesn't mean that the goals of the donnator's arn't reached ,and that's the most important thing there.

So basicly:

Hobbyist: doesn't want money for addons ,probably works in RL ,makes addons as he wants when he wants ,it's free thats good but we can't expect or demand anything from them

Free lance addon maker: Earns a bit of money for making high quality addons on demand to a certain deadline ,does basicly the work of a proffesional for less pay ,releases the addons free for community use ,the consumer or donater can make very specific demands on quality ,standards or release date.

Probably good for students who envision a carreer in such work.

[philcommando 0]

I hasten to add about the 'too little good addons lately'. No one owes anyone anything here. All are free to come and go, to contribute or not to. We are all only here out of loyalty to one another and love for the game.

However, no one will deny, no matter how blind he is, where have some of our community's best addonmakers or up and comming addonmakers gone. Its  no longer an issue of 'where's my daily fix of free addons', but a bigger issue of where and why are our friends, those we revered or encouraged who could bring ofp1 to greater heights and greater playerability, gone...

The question now at this point of time is....can we as a community help them? Or since our community is easy come easy go, just ignore them and tell them ' get lost, good riddance, sucker for giving us free addons and wasted yer time, (plenty?) more others will give us free addons'?? !!!

PS:- I stress again - i am against paying for addons but there must be another tangible way to support the community. I earn $xx,xxx a month working my brains out which i enjoy and dont need the money for addons ( maybe thats why  i produce fast and crap addons in 2 weeks! ). Its not about me but my name is used to protect others from being thrashed, for they know full well what some people are in the community - talk of money and rage blinds reason.  I fear no one and only seek to engage a sincere, matured and genuine discussion on issues facing the community. I sincerly apologise if i offend anyone.

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]I fear no one and only seek to engage a sincere, matured and genuine discussion on issues facing the community. I sincerly apologise if i offend anyone.

You know PC ,you don't nessecarily have to get everyone in agreement with you.Not everyone is against youre position ,in addition if you can prove that their really is a big market of donaters interrested in stimulating the production of certain addons then a system as described above here could be worked out ,and you can just create a site and community for it and those interrested can participate ,addon makers or donaters.Yes you could use some help for that ,but atleast if you can prove their is a market here ,by a poll for ex. ,then youll find people to cooperate with you more easily.

Youre deffinatly not alone in youre position as seen on this thread ,even if you only convinced 20% of the people participating on this thread ,atleast you have that 20%.Take into account that you have a lot of hobby addon makers here who naturally are a bit adverse of youre position ,combined with the fact that people usually only read the first post and not the whole thread ,i bet that you could find more support for youre cause if it's presented well and backed up with a demand or community interrest.

A poll comes to mind ,a poll with the question if people would be willing to donate money to get an addon made faster and more to their demands ,with the addon still released free.Just to get addons/mods done ,finished and up to a certain level of perfection.

Or if people would like to donate for addons on demand ,like an clan leader ordering a specific cti conversion for his clan to an mission maker for a certain donation.

But if you poll the people ,make sure to ask youre question right as to prevent confusion.

[philcommando 0]

Thanks Apollo, for your kind words. In all honesty, the community may not be ready for a poll, as most of them are not ready to make an inform decision, for there is not enough of views for them to make a balance rationale.

I will continue to honestly and sincerly let each and everyone have a fair view, from both sides of the camps, till they feel they understand enough to cast their votes without letting rage blind their reasoning. ( as long as i can take the flamming before it drives me insane )

It may be a pipe dream, but i only seek fairness within the hearts of each proud and loyal member of the community.

[Pathy 0]

No offence PC, but....

Quote[/b] ]as most of them are not ready to make an inform decision

Read my previous post, page 4. Try and tell me that i have not made an informed decision.

Quote[/b] ]till they feel they understand enough to cast their votes without letting rage blind their reasoning

Do you think rage blinded my reasoning in my last post? `

I considered that, as you said, donations, on the surface, sounds a good idea. It still means addons are free, but addon makers may get some reward. But then, i went a stage further than your thinking. I thought about the side effects. If that isnt rational thinking, then i guess anything that disagrees with your idea of donations isnt considered rational

I hope that isnt the case. The thing is, i know your probably reading this thinking "god, why has he taken that comment personally?". I havent, just it looks to me like alot of the people in this thread are posting similar things to me, and your still saying that most of us are blinded by rage or whatever.