If D-Day was today

[harley 3 1185 0]

I'm kinda confused by what you mean by "False Claims". And out of interest (this is not for any flaming purpose), what Nationality are you? The Rowan Atkinson (who studied at my old school) avatar suggest British-and if so have you ever visited America?

[EiZei 0]

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1. If the media would have been able to convince the the citizens of the allied nations to prevent the Dresden bombing then I'm sure all of the strategic bombing campaign would have been deemed "inhumane" and aborted. If that were the case it could be argued that the allies may have lost the war. It doesn't even need to be argured the fact that thousands if not millions more of the allied nations would have died with out the bomber campaign. Carpet bombing sure killed a hell of a lot of civilians but at the time there was no other way, they didn't have smart bombs. Despite the massive air campaign the German military industry managed to grow durring the entire war. Think about that for a moment, now imagine how German industry would of faired had it not been bombed day and night.

Well, we seem to have different ideas on when it is justified to burn people to death so ill leave it to that.

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3. Letting big corporations trade with the nazis? This isn't a Michael Moore allegation is it?

Ford factories kept working day and night in europe and probably profited from slave labour. Henry ford was a vicious anti-semite and adored hitler (the feeling was mutual since it was Ford who had given him 70k USD campaign funds during his early days) openly until he was practically forced to shut up. His son was sitting in the board of I.G. Farben for god's sake. Even after the war he didn't give away the highest award hitler had given him.

IBM's punchcard machines were used by nazis and the corporation did'nt seem to mind much but it is uncertain if they had any control over their german operations beyond 1937.

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The media has no place in war planning or operations period. Sherman was right, the media are spies. Media oversight, pfft, sounds like disinformation and sabotage to me. Media oversight can only harm the war effort and prolong the conflict or even lead to defeat. Sorry but defeat is not a acceptable alternative.

Many people die when "defeat is not an acceptable alternative," if everybody would have had that kind of mindset starting from korean war we might be trying to survive in a radioactive wasteland and not talk shit on a discussion board.

Without media oversight US military might have not bothered to get smart bombs, stopped using dangerous chemicals and had been more discriminate about killing civilians.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]Yeah, go ahead, just blame it all on media just like every other wacko.

I'm not putting all the blame on the media. The citizens of the western nations are equally to blame, they are the ones who gobble the shit up.

You go ahead though and blame the nasty military. Just like every other naive soft westerner.

Blame military for what? Im mostly blaming current failures on certain trigger happy politicians and certain greedy companies.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]How do you even compare something as insignificant as the situation in Iraq to WWII? How do you think the west would react if one western country suddenly marched across Europe crushing every army in its way? Get some perspective.

I compare it because if the west today can't cope with an "insignificant" skirmish like Iraq, then they sure as hell can't cope with a real war with a nation like North Korea.

How do I think the west would react? I'm sure they would place sanctions for over a decade which the offending nation would ignore, then a few nations would step up and go to war and promptly sue for peace after just one day of batte in which thousands of troops died.

If the shit would really hit the fan today media would'nt even get to react until the nukes started raining.

[somebloke 0]

Sadly lives are lost in war though. I try to look at it as only 1,600 have died in three years. When worded that way though it sounds incredibly callous and heartless. I'm just trying to make the comparison between the death toll from other wars in which 1,000 dead a day were not uncommon. In those wars the people of the west steeled them selves and fought on to victory, I don't think the west today could do that.

Exactly.

You can't expect to have a war and not suffer casualties (in every sense of the word).

1,600 in 3 years. Thats nothing compared to the first few days of world war 1, roughly 20,000 Frenchman died within less than a week.

I mean even the WTC attacks claimed more lives in 1 day than the iraq war did over these 3 years.

[Akira 0]

I'm not even going to get into the whole "media vs. military vs. public perception" arguement, as in this thread it is entirely basedon a false assumption that the Iraq War is just as important as World War 2, a laughable comment.

World War Two was a global struggle against two evil and inherently brutal and rascist regimes. Both regimes (three if you count L'il Mussolini) were openly militiaristic and aimed at territorial expansion based on aggressive warfare, and demanded total dominance of their world vision. If you didn't capitulate you were crushed. If you were different than them, or failed to agree with their world vision, you were killed. It took the combined might of three major countries, and many smaller ones, to defeat these two (three), considerably smaller, nations. World War Two was a war of ideals. A war brought about not by Allied aggressions, but forced upon them by Axis aggression.

Just how exactly does Iraq fit that picture?

[DBR_ONIX 0]

Todat World War Two will never happen.. if it does it will have more deaths... because on biological/nuclear/chemical warfare Who would land soldiers on beach with modern technology? Why people care more about casulties today, baceuse it possible to keep it low.

Exactly.

War's.. evolved.. Take pre WW1 wars, wrote bright colours, charged at each other etc.. WW1, less of the, what we see now adays as "stupid ideas", bright colours, charging at each other, slowly getting futher from the enemy. WW2, artilery and stuff used a lot, snipers. Now-a-days you dont even have to be in the same country to blow a building up

You wouldn't get the same media-coverage of the war today, countrys dont like to publicise the ammount of people that were killed. And, if you were incharge of a country, would you like to announce how many people your decision killed? Nope

Without the news, and the thousands of people protesting (Where did they get that idea from? Telepathy? The TV? Hmm, I wonder...), comprared to "old" (WW2 time, for example), propaganda etc about how evil the germans were etc etc, people were acctualy behind the war..

I wonder how long it'll be till the film "Iraq War 2 : Fight For Oil" is made.. half-decade maybe?

- Ben

[Denwad 0]

If Iraq was fought for oil

<span style='font-size:17pt;line-height:100%'>WHY IS GAS BECOMING MORE EXPENSIVE?</span>

[Daniel 0]

Because governments (at least here in the UK) like taxing us to peices?

[MontyVCB 0]

is there any real point to this thread?

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]WHY IS GAS BECOMING MORE EXPENSIVE?

Hint1:

Hint2:

Hint3:

Hint4:

Question answered ?

[harley 3 1185 0]

Due to this thing called a "state of unrest" in the Middle East, the price of a barrel of oil has surpassed $50, which is an astronomical increase over what it was 3-5 years back. That is why over the past 3-5 years Gas Prices have been getting higher and higher.

[EiZei 0]

Do you think the consumer price is any kind of indication? Oil companies are making nice profits nonetheless.

I still wonder why the mods won't let this thread out of it's misery already.

[sputnik monroe 102]

Quote[/b] ]I still wonder why the mods won't let this thread out of it's misery already.

Get over it.There is a thread with differing opinions from yours so "It must be locked!". Gimmie a break.

I think it's an intersting discussion, how would the west deal with a war in modern times. Except for a few people, this has been interesting so far. In particular I've found Harley's opinions to be quite interesting.

To me Eizei it almost seems like you are saying "What!? they don't agree with me!? Lock it close it.

People keep bringing up Iraq because currently it's the closest thing to war that the west is involved in at the moment. So when discussing what if D day were today we end up using examples from Iraq. Is it that hard to understand?

It seems any time some one mentions Iraq, and espouses a differing opinion than the kliq's all hell breaks loose.

[EiZei 0]

Quote[/b] ]I still wonder why the mods won't let this thread out of it's misery already.

Get over it.There is a thread with differing opinions from yours so "It must be locked!". Gimmie a break.

So start a thread that actually relates to that. The last posts have been Iraq (obvious?), flaming, gas prices and effects of modern warfare.

The if-it-was-today-blah-blah-liberals-blah has been already covered at least 2 times (think there was a third but im not wasting any more time on this):

http://www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin....wo;st=0

http://www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin....=nelson

Or maybe the evil clique decided to force the mods to insert those posts there right?

[xawery 0]

Quote[/b] ]I think it's an intersting discussion, how would the west deal with a war in modern times.

That would certainly be an interesting discussion.

However, posting inflammatory material where direct comparisons between a World War and a controversial skirmish in a 3rd world country are drawn is a poor basis for such a discussion. Just becaused GWB put 'Freedom' and 'Liberation' stickers on his little 'adventure' every chance he got, doesn't mean it should or could be compared to the great Allied effort of 1944.

[Akira 0]

If Iraq was fought for oil

<span style='font-size:17pt;line-height:100%'>WHY IS GAS BECOMING MORE EXPENSIVE?</span>

Ah. Fallacy Number Uno. Because the war was about oil, it is about giving the consumer the lowest prices on gas.

WRONG!

Check out the profit of the large oil companies (who supposedly aren't profitting from these high prices) and then you will see why the war is about oil. And of course TBA's (who all come from oil companies) personal issue with that pesky Saddam.

[SFWanabe 0]

Quote[/b] ]I still wonder why the mods won't let this thread out of it's misery already.

Get over it.There is a thread with differing opinions from yours so "It must be locked!". Gimmie a break.

So start a thread that actually relates to that. The last posts have been Iraq (obvious?), flaming, gas prices and effects of modern warfare.

The if-it-was-today-blah-blah-liberals-blah has been already covered at least 2 times (think there was a third but im not wasting any more time on this):

http://www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin....wo;st=0

http://www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin....=nelson

Or maybe the evil clique decided to force the mods to insert those posts there right?

Why do you care about American politics? Your finnish it isnt really effecting you directly. Also dude just because a thread has opinions you dont agree in it doesnt mean it should be locked. So keep that in mind before you start saying "Why dont the mods put this thread out of it's misery?"

[EiZei 0]

Quote[/b] ]I still wonder why the mods won't let this thread out of it's misery already.

Get over it.There is a thread with differing opinions from yours so "It must be locked!". Gimmie a break.

So start a thread that actually relates to that. The last posts have been Iraq (obvious?), flaming, gas prices and effects of modern warfare.

The if-it-was-today-blah-blah-liberals-blah has been already covered at least 2 times (think there was a third but im not wasting any more time on this):

http://www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin....wo;st=0

http://www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin....=nelson

Or maybe the evil clique decided to force the mods to insert those posts there right?

Why do you care about American politics? Your finnish it isnt really effecting you directly. Also dude just because a thread has opinions you dont agree in it doesnt mean it should be locked. So keep that in mind before you start saying "Why dont the mods put this thread out of it's misery?"

Are you actually reading my posts? Im saying the thread should be let out of it's misery since it really has no real topic anymore and the same shit has been posted many times over. Feel free to start a proper thread about media's effect on war, I won't demand it to be locked.

And it does NOT concern only americans when countries start to get invaded and stomped over like that. Iraq is hell lot closer to us than you geographically. Hell, I could walk 500m to the nearest pizza joint and go talk with some kurdish refugees from Iraq about this if I wanted to.

The US is the sole superpower of the world, and as long as it maintains this kind of interventionist policy it DOES concern the rest of the world.

[SFWanabe 0]

Quote[/b] ]The US is the sole superpower of the world, and as long as it maintains this kind of interventionist policy it DOES concern the rest of the world.

Yea so dont piss us off.

Quote[/b] ]And it does NOT concern only americans when countries start to get invaded and stomped over like that. Iraq is hell lot closer to us than you geographically. Hell, I could walk 500m to the nearest pizza joint and go talk with some kurdish refugees from Iraq about this if I wanted to.

Okay good for you. But that has nothing to do with the US. Thats your government accepting refugees.

Quote[/b] ]Are you actually reading my posts? Im saying the thread should be let out of it's misery since it really has no real topic anymore and the same shit has been posted many times over. Feel free to start a proper thread about media's effect on war, I won't demand it to be locked.

Thats a matter of opinion.....

[EiZei 0]

Okay good for you. But that has nothing to do with the US. Thats your government accepting refugees.

That means that if you start invading other countries it does concern the rest of the world quite a lot actually.

[SFWanabe 0]

Well you really need to understand the after 9-11 the US is going to make some heads roll. I personally think Iraq was a quest for oil and not for Saddam or anything else and should not have been faught. But Afganistan was a operation that needed to be excuted. Also your government doesnt have to accept refugees from any country so its your country's fault not the US's fault for you having a refugee problem.

[EiZei 0]

Also your government doesnt have to accept refugees from any country so its your country's fault not the US's fault for you having a refugee problem.

Somebody just missed my point by a kilometer.. again.

The bleeding point is that the aggressive foreign policy of the only superpower in the world has far-reaching results to everybody. I just took that up as an example.

[SFWanabe 0]

Well just remeber Finland wasnt attacked on 9-11 the USA was....

[EiZei 0]

Well just remeber Finland wasnt attacked on 9-11 the USA was....

And this is relevant why..?

[SFWanabe 0]

Well for one thing we aggressive right now for a reason. I havent seen Finland help find Bin Laden....

[EiZei 0]

Well for one thing we aggressive right now for a reason. I havent seen Finland help find Bin Laden....

Too bad a lot of the aggressiveness does not seem to relate to 9-11. And how the hell are we supposed to find bin laden?

I can already imagine the elite 19-year-old special jaeger conscripts patrolling the pakistani border looking for al-qaeda operatives..

EDIT: And come to think of it, this is the 21st post since the last even remotely on-topic post on this thread, who would have known.