State of OFP...

[whisperFFW06 0]

As long as you seek in OFP something like : I connect, I frag, I quit, you won't be satisfied. OFP was not intended to be like that. I can show you games which do not have JIP feature, and which give a damn fun multiplayer experience (F4, and every mil sim, for example).

Second, plz stop asking for JIP, it IS NOT POSSIBLE TECHNICALLY. The way OFP is made, it is just an incredible mess to add JIP.

You like the OFP editor, with all its capacities, scripts, etc... which permits every situation? THAT is the JIP killer. Just an example : How would you handle state of script execution, and variables, when a new player connects? no way.

It could be possible if you build a simple mission : you put units and vehicules, and that's all. No WP, no trigger, nothing. In that case you can join in play, but, whoo, what a mission!

That's a choice : great mission and huge immersion factor, or JIP. Asking for JIP is asking for CS type of play : I connect, I use all the bunch of vehicules and weapon laying here to make as many frags as possible, and I quit. Thats's the way you want to play OFP online? For me, no, if I seek this kind of play, I just play CS, agree with you, it's better.

Whis'

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As long as you seek in OFP something like : I connect, I frag, I quit, you won't be satisfied. OFP was not intended to be like that.<span id='postcolor'>

Putting the technical aspects aside, I would simply add a server side option to enable or disable JIP - maybe even on a per-map basis!

[Sith 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">When the game is out it will only feature a 'race around town' feature<span id='postcolor'>

Puts OFP multiplayer suddenly in a much better perspective, doesnt it?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Putting the technical aspects aside, I would simply add a sever side option to enable or disable JIP - maybe even on a per-map basis!<span id='postcolor'>

Well...what are you waiting for? Get to work!

Seriosuly though, IMO this whole discussion has been overdone and it's pretty much pointless. Like others said b4, BIS already stated why the game doesnt support JIP, and also why they dont want to put it in anymore. I can fully understand their decission, and I hope the same goes for all of you. If so, plz let it rest

[christophercles 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Brentk @ Jan. 16 2002,06:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">everyone just assumes that there will be an ofp 2.  Well i dont know why this is.<span id='postcolor'>

Activisions policy is if a game sells over 250k units, they will put money into making a sequel. Maybey codemasters might have the same kind of policy.

[Placebo 28]

The lack of JIP simply means that you play MP by organising a game with a few friends, it does not take 20 people playing Opf online to have a great game, from my own personal experience having a coop game with only a couple of friends is the best online gaming I've ever had, Opf isn't intended for a 40 player fragfest or whatever, if you want to do that type of thing there are other titles around.

Opf is intended as a military simulator, sure it's fun as well but it's core is as a combat simulator, play a coop game with a couple of friends, while enroute to your objective sort out your tactics, plan your attack, back each other up once the firefight has started, that IMO greatly surpasses the online experience of any other game

[CADman-GUN- 1]

OFP is great online a whole new experience but... without server hosting compaines renting clan/squad servers its damn hard to maintain a team

[Jusupov 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">it does not take 20 people playing Opf online to have a great game, from my own personal experience having a coop game with only a couple of friends is the best online gaming I've ever had<span id='postcolor'>

True.. true..

[762WorldOrder 0]

I don't have the time to join a squad or clan, nor do I want to mold my OFP playing time around a schedule. I don't have any other friends that play OFP (I'm working on one), and quite frankly I think it's a pain in the ass that you have to converse with several people and have this whole level of organization just to get a freaking game going.

I want to be able to jump on and play OFP when I have time, period. It's a game. I want to be able to play it at will. I have a job and other responsibilities, and I HATE it when I have an hour to play and I have to waste half of it waiting in limbo because stupid newbie admins take their sweet time getting a game started because they don't do their job as an admin and make sure everyone gets on a team quickly and efficiently, or they don't know how to disable the AI, or they're waiting for their friend to show up, and then decide to change their mind about what map they want to play, or they want to go back to Gamespy so they unceremoniously drop everyone from the game and we have to start the whole process all over again. It's like pulling teeth.

Quite frankly, I'm am astounded that BIS was so shortsighted that they DIDN'T consider multiplayer as the primary focus of this game. I mean shit! Look at the game!! It's not very hard to imagine people wanting to play this on a large scale online. That was the first thought that went through my head the first time I saw a screenshot of OFP. I can't believe the developers just brushed it off like that. Coop and CTF are really fun as is, but just imagine how great it COULD have been, with dedicated code and massive 64 player battles.

If you guys want an OFP-type game that's made for online play (although a little lighter on the realism), check out theese screenshots from Battlefield 1942. It looks to be everything we've wanted.

[whisperFFW06 0]

I think that BIS considered immersion and simulation factor as their primary focus. And that's what make this game so great. You just can't blame them for that, if they had focused on multiplayer, we would have another classical multiplayer FPS, that's all. With a little bit of originality, but the core of the actual OFP would be left out.

The "error" was to have considered multiplayer as a bonus, not a focus. One thing which could have been possible, I imagine, would have been to create some kind of "light version", including physics, 3D models, maps, but excluding IA, triggers, scripts, etc... Just a "world loader". There JIP could have been possible, and yes, it would be a great enhancement for people who seek immediate CTF/DM game.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

Multiplayer is widely overrated IMO. As long as there isn't decent net access for the general public (meaning broadband in more than 25% of the connected households), online gaming will remain largely a corner market. And OFP is one of the best examples of why multiplayer is overrated: the AI is SO good, the immersion factor is SO immense that you simply don't need online gaming. About the only thing I will moan about is the linear campaign. A dynamic campaign like in Falcon 4.0 would have made OPF perfect! But even know, every mission can have 7 outcomes, which gives more than enough room for a semi-dynamic campaign should a team be dedicated enough to do that sort of thing. And Conquest is another excellent example of excellent AI! Online gaming will remain overrated for the next couple of years, especially with ever improving AI.

[Desloc 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (whisperFFW06 @ Jan. 16 2002,11:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As long as you seek in OFP something like : I connect, I frag, I quit, you won't be satisfied. OFP was not intended to be like that. I can show you games which do not have JIP feature, and which give a damn fun multiplayer experience (F4, and every mil sim, for example).

Second, plz stop asking for JIP, it IS NOT POSSIBLE TECHNICALLY. The way OFP is made, it is just an incredible mess to add JIP.

You like the OFP editor, with all its capacities, scripts, etc... which permits every situation? THAT is the JIP killer. Just an example : How would you handle state of script execution, and variables, when a new player connects? no way.

It could be possible if you build a simple mission : you put units and vehicules, and that's all. No WP, no trigger, nothing. In that case you can join in play, but, whoo, what a mission!

That's a choice : great mission and huge immersion factor, or JIP. Asking for JIP is asking for CS type of play : I connect, I use all the bunch of vehicules and weapon laying here to make as many frags as possible, and I quit. Thats's the way you want to play OFP online? For me, no, if I seek this kind of play, I just play CS, agree with you, it's better.

Whis'<span id='postcolor'>

I fail to unstandstand how adding Join in Progress implies a frag fest :rolleyes:

To say it's not technically possible is just wrong.

-you connect

-you read briefing screen

-you select available ai unit

-game syncronizes

-you join

JIP doesn't imply jumping in, killing, and jumping out...

...it just implies jumping in without a 20 min wait.

Again I say... for devotees already playing the game as it is, that's fine, but for a large segment of the adult market that doesn't have time to 'waste' waiting, JIP would put this great product on top.

Ask yourself... why, with over a million copies sold, are there not 1000's of dedicated servers? Why?

It's BIS/CM's future, it's their call.

[Desloc 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (placebo @ Jan. 16 2002,13:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The lack of JIP simply means that you play MP by organising a game with a few friends, it does not take 20 people playing Opf online to have a great game, from my own personal experience having a coop game with only a couple of friends is the best online gaming I've ever had, Opf isn't intended for a 40 player fragfest or whatever, if you want to do that type of thing there are other titles around.

Opf is intended as a military simulator, sure it's fun as well but it's core is as a combat simulator, play a coop game with a couple of friends, while enroute to your objective sort out your tactics, plan your attack, back each other up once the firefight has started, that IMO greatly surpasses the online experience of any other game <span id='postcolor'>

It's not about how many people can play, it's about the lack of convenience in joining a game.

Here's an example of the life and available time of people I know in 'my' age group...

-work

-dinner

-family

-1 to 2 hours of recreation time give or take

-bed

That recreation time is not always between 8-9pm, it may be later or earlier.

When they have a chance to play, they want to play, not wait.

So what do they do? Play another game that allows them to play when they want to... period.

Do you see what type of market segmet BIS/CM is cutting out...

... serious, non-frag, mature gamers, the type you want in this community. The type that has money to run servers and keep the game honest.

[jimz0rz 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Desloc @ Jan. 15 2002,22:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As long as BIS/CM convinces themselves that OFP does not need 'Join Game in Progress', this game with never be as popular as any online game with the above mentioned option.<span id='postcolor'>

I couldent agree more.

BIS, IMO have neglected the multiplayer aspect. Waiting 10-30 mins fo a game simply is'nt acceptable.

Half-Life is a prime example of a thriving community. Decent netcode, mods etc. OFP's feet never touched the floor.

[Rogue2020 0]

Flashpoint will never come close to any online game as long as they make you need to know someone else that has it to play...or try to find some 3rd party server shit for it.....it needs it's own lobby and shit.....

[whisperFFW06 0]

Have you ever played coop mission in OFP? I assume yes. Have you ever created a coop mission in OFP with the editor? Have you seen how this is made? Do you agree that all tese features are the core of the immersion in OFP (abilities to create triggers, scripted scenes, etc...)?

Ok, now, lets begin a game, with 4 participants. Every variable is set, scripts begin, etc... Another player wants to connects. There comes the "game synchronize" parts. The server as to send the states of every variables, and the state of execution of every scripts, which will continue to execute while the player connects. And the player is out of sync. Good start. This is the easiest problem. With such an underlying process running (that is, the state of the game at a given moment is not described only by position and actions of every units at that very moment, but by what has been done before, and how it will interfere in the mission), the "game synchronize" part is a real mess, and makes JIP almost impossible to implement. So to have JIP, you have to take out all those underlying processes, that is take out scripts, triggers, etc... You end up with something clearly more simple, but the immersive factor has gone away. That's plain and simple. What makes OFP so good (cutscenes, reactivity, immersion) implies a synchronization taking into account every action made since the beggining of the mission. If you feel it's an easy programming task, just mail your suggestions to BIS.

I've never talked about killing, jumping, and so on. I said that for JIP to be possible, you have to create a CS-like system (that is, "I know the position and actions of everyone at that precise moment, then I know the state of the game"). That's also why you just can't compare Half life to OFP, because yes Half life multiplayer has a "decent netcode", but this netcode was WAY easier to implement than OFP's (and btw Half Life immersion is way under OFP's). Just think about pilot/copilot handling in multiplayer.

And the synchro problems are just a little part of the JIP mess.

Don't get me wrong, I fully understand your point, and you are right. It's all a matter of choice. BIS wanted a military simulation, with everything that it implies. The way they have done that reject JIP. Technically. They have stated it clearly, and with the bunch of patches and add-on they have already made, if a solution was to be found, they would have done it. JIP would have been possible if you take out all scripting and IA system as it is by now, and which makes this game so great and different from CS series.

Finally (whoo, sorry to have written so long), I'm married, I'm working, and I find the time to play decently OFP. It is possible . Sorry, but I consider myself as a mature, and regularly play with mature fellows.

Whis'

[timmy 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">One thing about NOT having a "jump in and play" feature is that you don't get retards like you do in CS and other games with this feature.  At least not as much.<span id='postcolor'>

I'm sorry, but my friends and customers are mostly 25-40 and far from being 'retards'. CS is the way it is because of it's simplicty as a game... not because of 'Join in Progress'.<span id='postcolor'>

most people are not 25-40 most people are 12-21 and i am 16 and the first multiplayer game i played was rogue spear, and i got a couple of my friends into it and it had great online play.  Ive pretty much given up with ofp multiplayer and i just play it single and i play ghost recon(in my opinion the best mutltiplayer fps right now) online with them. GR is so easy to start you just go in, there is no jip but the games are only about 5 min. and we can play on a sever with a ping of 60 with 30 people(we all have broadband)and we never have to leave that server.

[Desloc 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (whisperFFW06 @ Jan. 17 2002,00:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Have you ever played coop mission in OFP? I assume yes. Have you ever created a coop mission in OFP with the editor? Have you seen how this is made? Do you agree that all tese features are the core of the immersion in OFP (abilities to create triggers, scripted scenes, etc...)?

Ok, now, lets begin a game, with 4 participants. Every variable is set, scripts begin, etc... Another player wants to connects. There comes the "game synchronize" parts. The server as to send the states of every variables, and the state of execution of every scripts, which will continue to execute while the player connects. And the player is out of sync. Good start. This is the easiest problem. With such an underlying process running (that is, the state of the game at a given moment is not described only by position and actions of every units at that very moment, but by what has been done before, and how it will interfere in the mission), the "game synchronize" part is a real mess, and makes JIP almost impossible to implement. So to have JIP, you have to take out all those underlying processes, that is take out scripts, triggers, etc... You end up with something clearly more simple, but the immersive factor has gone away. That's plain and simple. What makes OFP so good (cutscenes, reactivity, immersion) implies a synchronization taking into account every action made since the beggining of the mission. If you feel it's an easy programming task, just mail your suggestions to BIS.

I've never talked about killing, jumping, and so on. I said that for JIP to be possible, you have to create a CS-like system (that is, "I know the position and actions of everyone at that precise moment, then I know the state of the game"). That's also why you just can't compare Half life to OFP, because yes Half life multiplayer has a "decent netcode", but this netcode was WAY easier to implement than OFP's (and btw Half Life immersion is way under OFP's). Just think about pilot/copilot handling in multiplayer.

And the synchro problems are just a little part of the JIP mess.

Don't get me wrong, I fully understand your point, and you are right. It's all a matter of choice. BIS wanted a military simulation, with everything that it implies. The way they have done that reject JIP. Technically. They have stated it clearly, and with the bunch of patches and add-on they have already made, if a solution was to be found, they would have done it. JIP would have been possible if you take out all scripting and IA system as it is by now, and which makes this game so great and different from CS series.

Finally (whoo, sorry to have written so long), I'm married, I'm working, and I find the time to play decently OFP. It is possible . Sorry, but I consider myself as a mature, and regularly play with mature fellows.

Whis'<span id='postcolor'>

Very good explanation of some possible issues with JIP and coop, but there are other game modes where JIP could be implemented.

I'm just upset with BIS/CM... that OFP will never see the greatness it deserves

[shataan 1]

I still like how Delta Force 2 did it.

1: they delivered awesome standard multi maps

2: everyone had these maps and coul;d get to know them

3: all we did was get onto the server list, picked a game and joined

4: no waiting to download the nOOb map makers "map from hell"

5: no going into maps and seeing dudes who have no freaking clue on how to drive or fly any particular vehicle.

6: it was awesome good old in the field combat fun right now

now thats how an online community is made. The idea is to play. Period. FP for all the awesome things it truly does do, does not come close to delivering the online pure combat gaming fun of DF 2 in its day. Sometimes ambition has a way of blinding a Developer to the more important aspects. Just playing the game.

Flashpoint made an awesome mappers community tho.

[General Iljurin 0]

I would say that for the very casual gamer OFP might not be the best experience, but then again I doubt that the casual gamer would go ahead and buy a military sim. I have had small problems finding good games to play in MP. At first it was really easy to play at GS even if the program itself sucked. Well there you got to knew players and were invited to IP games and such.

I would just say that you only have problems as long as you have no contacts and you easily get contacts if you behave and show interrest. I much rather play with people I know than jump onto any server and just frag away. In OFP the gameplay also differs so its really hard to play with people that has no clue of tactics and so and therefor I am quite happy that there is no JIP, that could easily destroy the game for those allready in it.

My advice is, begin to play at GS and get to know a few peeps and then move onto ASE and IP where the games generally will be better. Once you get to know a few players your difficulties will be over.

[Balschoiw 0]

An important part of OFP is the realism style. It is not compareable to CS or other progs in that way. If you do a coop and a player joins during mission this is very unrealistic.

Even in a CTF or DM i want to have even teams and no hop in and out gamers. I prefer to play with a good team and have had awesome experiences there. You meet good or bad players and sooner or later you will play with the good ones more often or regular like i do. I am lucky to be in a clan that is very serious at gaming (no kiddies or rambos). I love playing with them. Stay tuned and enjoy this great game online. It simply rocks!

[CK1 0]

You're also missing the great thing that no jumping mid game is! It's an Idiot filter!

Have you been on a server and heard " Hey, put in a chopper, can I fly the chopper, does this mission have a chopper?"

I'm sure you have.

Now imagine if this guy didn't have to wait in between rounds! He would jump in as West, fly all of their copters, then jump east and drive all of theirs, then, when the match was out of whirlybirds, he would jump out of that game and find the next chopper mission. Anywhere. Thank you for Idiotproofing your game, BIS!

[S_Z 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">One thing about NOT having a "jump in and play" feature is that you don't get retards like you do in CS and other games with this feature.  At least not as much.<span id='postcolor'>

I'm sorry, but my friends and customers are mostly 25-40 and far from being 'retards'. CS is the way it is because of it's simplicty as a game... not because of 'Join in Progress'.<span id='postcolor'>

most people are not 25-40 most people are 12-21 and i am 16 and the first multiplayer game i played was rogue spear, and i got a couple of my friends into it and it had great online play.  Ive pretty much given up with ofp multiplayer and i just play it single and i play ghost recon(in my opinion the best mutltiplayer fps right now) online with them. GR is so easy to start you just go in, there is no jip but the games are only about 5 min. and we can play on a sever with a ping of 60 with 30 people(we all have broadband)and we never have to leave that server.<span id='postcolor'>

I just want to say that I think you are wrong about the age thing. I believe most people who play these kind of games (RainbowSix,GR,OFP) ARE 25-40.

Maybe that is not the case on this forum but check out GRs forum the average age is about 28. Many of them are married and have children…that’s one thing I like about these “realistic shooter†they attracts an older and more mature crowd.

[GT Phantom 0]

Thank you, whisperFFW06, for your excellant description of how mult-player works in OFP.

Now, let's look at this from a slightly different perspective.  I am a serious gamer and over 40.  Golden Triad is currently #1 in the OFP League - and many members are older than I am.  At 1 million copies sold (plus additional addons, etc.) times (I'll guess $10 as Codemasters' "cut" of the purchase price) we have a pretty good indication, in dollars, that people are primarily happy with this game.  This also means that there is probably SOME money available to enhance the game, either as is or as a re-release (more revenue).  I know that no company can survive providing indefinite support and enhancement after product release.  Speaking for myself and (if I may) many other serious on-line gamers, I believe that many of us (with real lives) would pitch in for a re-release that contained this improvement.

I understand your quandry in developing - I too manage a multi-million dollar development staff, and there are always some hard decisions to be made in the features to be added, tradeoffs in stability (it's a little broke, but people can live with that more than they can WITHOUT x new feature).

So, looking at it as a business, the single biggest complaint I hear (after the "just getting the game started" problem, which I know you are working on) is not so much that people want to start mid-game as that they would like to be able to re-connect to a game in progress if (this is reality, now) they get unavoidably disconnected.  After 20 minutes marshalling the players & getting started, NO ONE is ever happy missing out on 50 minutes of a 1 1/2 hour match!   Without looking at your code (which, by the way, I would be happy to have the opportunity to do) but just by your description of "how it works," I am led to believe that it WOULD be possible to synchronize game state EVEN WITH COMPLEX SCRIPTS.  

The way to do this, of course, is to implement a game journal on the server just like Oracle databases create activity journals in case of a server failure - go back to the last backup (in this case, the basic mission file) and then apply the journals.  At game start, all players would be registerd into the game server by their CD key / game name.  In essence, if someone re-connects (and, by the way, I too think that gameplay would be diminished if non-starters were allowed to enter mid-game) an asynchronous thread on the server would connect to the client and start running the re-connected player in fast-forward.  PLEASE make it an asynchronous thread - so it will not kill the game performance of those already connected!  Only world-state would need to be updated; the very last task would be to update unit positions.  Player "arrival" would occur as an "insertion/respawn."  This is all existing code.  On the client side, receiving the "game journal" would be just like running a testing application script (without the graphical portion being invoked) - the synchronizer robot would trigger each script event just as if the player had been attached in-game, in sequence, thus assuring that all scripting variables were fully synchronized.

Yes, this is still a significant chunk of work.  However, I believe that a good business case can be made for incorporating this into the networking re-write that you have already undertaken.

Again, I still think you guys have done a fantastic job so far, and this is the most kick-ass game going!

[IGFs TopGun 1]

I don't understand if there are so many people trying to hook up for MP why they don't join a squad? So much easier setting up game times, you get to play w/ the same bunch of guys and you don't have to "look" for a game to get in.

Our squad has added about 6 guys just this month. We have atleast 6 guys on a night and have had upto 8. All we do is meet up on ICQ, get Roger Wilco running and then jump into the game. If someone from our squad shows up alittle late it all depends how far we are into the mission.

We will either back up and get him or he can just wait for us. There are always squads/clans looking for people and it seems like there are always single people looking for a COOP game. Why not try a few out and join one that fits your needs and then you can enjoy MP so much more