CiA co-op night

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

I dont know, I was surprised too when I saw it. Maybe it is a clipping error but it could also be that this is the famous "dwarf-support" cheat!

[hardrock 1]

I was watching the flanks yesterday in a mission and a 8 man squad was approaching me. I reported but the leader didn't react because I guess he thought I meant the enemies inside the town we were attacking. So I kept asking for permission to shoot because they were coming to my direction and if I moved away I'd be killed pretty surely. In the end they were like 20-30m infront of me when the leader gave order to fire and nobody helped me on the flank because all attacked the village.

I guess you're refering to the situation when I lead yesterday after Llaumas death, and that was really a communication problem. Once, after being attacked from the back (with the leader dying) everybody seemed to do anything. Well, I was trying to focus on the village and set up a plan on how to attack, without loosing too many lives, and I also got you're message Ready to fire. But there was nothing like "Enemy Squad flanking, NE, 50m" so I didn't know it's immediate. There were lots of other squads in the village, you could have meant them too, in this case it would have been a fatal error to give permission to fire.

But I agree, we should try to set up fireteams in the future when playing with squads >6 units. Someone advanced should take the second team (Bals that is ) and everybody that is assigned to that team should really stick to it, even if the fire team leader can't give as precise commands as the leader.

As you said that people don't like to do "boring jobs" like watching the backs or the flanks, I think such people should not join CiA but servers where 20 other guys are doing exactly the same: Running around without coordination and hunting for kills. I for my part always watch the back, since the leader has to focus on the front. If the leader had to watch all direction, everything would screw up, so team members should watch the back and flanks and report precisely if they got enemy contact.

Another problem is that people often write (or shout) messages like "enemy there!" and request firing permission. Nobody knows where the enemy is, and it takes valuable seconds to find out which direction and distance the guy actually meant, if it's immediate or not etc. etc. That's a problem that I personally really hate. People should give messages like SIZE_OF_DANGER, DIRECTION, ESTIMATED_DISTANCE in one line and quickly, so that everybody knows where to seek (f.i. "Enemy, 6 men NW 200m"). This way a squad could get set on an approaching enemy within seconds and the leader would have enough time to decide wether to attack or not. But in most cases it's like "enemy there!", 3 guys know where and are shouting for firing permission, when finally a bigger part of the team has spotted the enemy it's too late to decide anything else but attacking in most cases. That often ends up in a chaos.

Just my 2 Groschen

[wheres my rabbit ? 10]

well there are two problems with that. OFP supports only one leader per squad, so only one can give ingame commands and since not everybody has a microphone you can't always do it over voice com.

secound problem is that covering fire is very limited in OFP because AI does not take cover and is not surpressable. So real tactics are not very useable in OFP. Also the any cover your squad uses becomes useless as soon as you start shooting because the AI then exactly knows where you are and can shoot you trough bushes and trees. However it's good to have some people watching a village and shooting AI that is poping up while others approach the village. But that's all use of "covering fire" in OFP I can think of.

true the useage of supressing/covering fire in OFP is pointless and a waste of ammo i agree,and is nothing more than watching and like you say shooting anything that may come running,although there is some benifit of having people in a firing position while the other move as they can react in a split second

and at least put some concentrated fire on the enemy while the other take cover not that the enemy will hide but the will be dealt with quicker and maybe save people from getting killed

i was more thinking along the lines of say.. as llauma says he and bals have played ofp for a long time and know how each other works and wot there gonna do, so if say llauma was squad leader he could just tell bals short orders where he wanted to other fireteam and not have to worry cos he trusts bals.

teamspeak has it benefits here obviously but also the more people you have on ts the patter about the weather/wot you ate for your dinner kind of talk increases not that this is a bad as people get to know each other better but can sometimes get a bit hectic when everyone talks at once

[Donnervogel 0]

@hardrock

3 things.

I also wrote in chat the direction of the enemy and I also marked the units. You could have figured by their direction (somethin o'clock) that they were in our right flank ;) Anyway. it was a communication problem. If I had voice com I could have said it more clearly. I was a bit stressed because alone with 8 enemies near you... ;)

Secound thing: I said people don't like doing the "boring" jobs until ordered to ;) Of course people that don't do it at all should not join. But when nobody tells you waht you shall do what do you prefer? Watching the landscape or joining the assault ? It's a game after all and when nobody tells me "watch the flanks" I see this as permission to have some "fun" too and join the "coordinated" attack. Nevertheless I keep an eye on the flanks when I'm on the outside of the formation. But it's not my main interest ususally.

third thing: well I sometimes just say "patrol" and "W" (for west) because the patrol is easily spotable and not yet a threat. But when I see nobody is reacting I write "enemy there" to get some attention ;) Dunno if you talked about me there but I always give direction of the enemy I spot.

[hardrock 1]

@donner: Don't take the things with precise reports as personal offense, it's just a general statement counting for everyone since there often are people that only report an enemy, but not it's direction, size and distance.

And as you said, you wrote where the enemy was yesterday, it seems I overread that. There was pretty lot of traffic in the chat, people talking about anything else but the mission, so concentrating on other things I seem to haven't been able to filter out your message. Also it was a bit of a chaos, since I didn't really know where some of the others were, so I didn't want to give fire permission to avoid those to do what they want. I wanted to get together first and then assaulting together, it seems I failed.

Well, I'm a bad leader anyway, that's why Llauma leads

[Postduifje 0]

Nah, nothing wrong with your leading qualities, we were just scattered, got our leader killed and enemies came from multiple directions. There's no way in organising that properly.

Maybe we could create some standards when playing with over 8. Since mostly a large portion of the group are regular visiters it might just be effective.

[Fork122 0]

Quote[/b] ]#5: Only use needed Addons/MODs. Disable custom sounds and not needed Addons. (Kegetys's or Llauma's hisky is allowed)

Would you guys mind if I played with Sanctuary's custom animations?

If not I'll reinstall OFP, I'm gonna try to stop by one of these nights.

[.pablo. 0]

Quote[/b] ]As you said that people don't like to do "boring jobs" like watching the backs or the flanks, I think such people should not join CiA but servers where 20 other guys are doing exactly the same: Running around without coordination and hunting for kills.

that is exactly why BIS needs to give modders a true SDK (a la Half-Life), so they can do things like remove the score-board.

[hardrock 1]

Would you guys mind if I played with Sanctuary's custom animations?

Don't think that this is a problem, since many of us do so too. The things meant with this point are config mods like ECP or Y2K3, but anim replacements are okay (not Locke's! they will crash the server)

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Yes sure , removing the scoreboard   ! I gladly accept certain rules. But lets not forget that the purpose of the coop night is to have fun AND to achieve the mission goals.

Well if all you want you can discipline the squad in a german way and allocate strict tasks such as "you only guard east". You can even go further and use one soldier only as scout, if he doesnt fire a shot he wont be seen but can give precise information on enemy strength and location.

My opinion: "all bullshit"

Llauma has found a decent balance of team-autonomy and team discipline. He gives orders that ensure that noone risks the life of the others (e.g. by alerting the enemy) and he chooses angle of attack, and assigns AT to Tank. If necessary those are the only orders gives! And thanks for that we still have a certain amount of fun when playing. Everything else might improve our score by 10% but in fact it is just cosmetics.

I played on servers where the officer assigned one enemy to each within the team. That is what I call useless bureaucracy. Might work for 3-4 but not for 9-12!

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]and use one soldier only as scout, if he doesnt fire a shot he wont be seen but can give precise information on enemy strength and location.

We´ve tried that sometimes over the years and it showed that it doesn´t work.

Player gets detected as he tries to get too close or is spotted by a patrol when he tries to change his angle towards the target.

OFP 1 is just not ready for such an approach

I´d be glad to remove the scoreboard. It´s the number one motivation that gets us killed or puts the whole team in serious trouble as some people are only concerned about their kills and act accordingly to that.

We´ve played a little coop yesterday night, with 3 people only. Just for fun and we solved a very heavy mission with lots of T80´s patrolling around us and 2 hinds that do actually shoot infantry, hovering above our heads.

We all survived to the end of the mission. Hardrock had a helo problem I guess, but we made it all to the intended mission end.

That is what is fun.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Removing scoreboard.. just bureaucracy!

The scoreboard is not my golden aim but a nice reward.

Do whatever you wish, it is your server!

[Postduifje 0]

Is it possible to remove it? It would be best if it only showed up in the end. That way the reward remains but people stop looking at it more than they do at the enemy. That will bring some extra reality too, cause now you can know whether you've shot a soldier by just checking if you have one added to your score.

[Balschoiw 0]

As far as I know it´s not possible to surpress it right now.

Quote[/b] ]Removing scoreboard.. just bureaucracy!

I guess it would be quite the opposite.

Quote[/b] ]The scoreboard is not my golden aim but a nice reward.

Yes, [CS] Albert

Anyway. I guess all the participating guys here know what we are aiming at. More fun for all. Even if that means limitations to personal freedom while playing. It´s the team effort that counts, not the individual prospect of a high scoring.

As those motivations often tend to crack up the team and expose the teammates to avoidable risks or even kill them it would be nice if some kind of thinking process would start. I guess that goal has already been schieved. At least, that´s what it looks like here. Let´s see if we can transport that to actual gaming. And yes, in the longterm people who tend to still do their own thing on the server will have no future there.

We´ve talked that through lately and we agree on that point.

[KingN 249]

That's me in the last pic near albert in the first page. Hmm should I make a custom face since we don't use cadet mode anymore? Haven't made any before.

[hardrock 1]

We´ve played a little coop yesterday night, with 3 people only. Just for fun and we solved a very heavy mission with lots of T80´s patrolling around us and 2 hinds that do actually shoot infantry, hovering above our heads.

We all survived to the end of the mission. Hardrock had a helo problem I guess, but we made it all to the intended mission end.

That is what is fun.

Indeed! I was trying to bombdive with a Mi-17, and well . . . it didn't want to pull up anymore But this mission was very nice and relaxing, though it was hard.

I don't think that f.i. assigning fire teams would do anything against the fun people have, just the contrary, with small (but cooperating) fire teams the communication could be increased, since everybody knows who is his fire team and who not, thus everybody is able to detect reported threats much faster while in big team there's always the problem of the distance between the first and the last one. Thus more people would survive (if acting correctly) which would be much more fun IMO than getting killed early and having to wait 40min til the last three die or finish the misson.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Okay, maybe a bit cheating but I also use the scoreboard to see if I hit the enemy of if he just got down. At long distance this can be helpful indeed. You throw a nade over a house and you are not too sure whether you hit something? Well in that case I use the scoreboard.

But scoreboard to be seen only in the end wouldnt be bad.. But still it would have the same old effect: People go for points.

Actually I think it is not the scoreboard that makes people ignore orders. It is simply the desire to participate in battle and take down soldiers.

Quote[/b] ]Yes, [CS] Albert

Damn I knew I shouldnt have mentioned it. Anyway, I am not a fanatic or something. But currently I like to play it once in a while since I needed a substitute for my SOF2 Online addiction!

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

That's me in the last pic near albert in the first page. Hmm should I make a custom face since we don't use cadet mode anymore? Haven't made any before.

Yes custom faces are helpful and they also make screenshots more exciting. I often use "look for Llauma face" as a navigation tool!

[KingN 249]

mkay how do you like my King Connery face (see avatar)? Just made it with psp7 and google.  

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Okay, maybe a bit cheating but I also use the scoreboard to see if I hit the enemy of if he just got down.

If you are not sure, use the right mouse button on him. That works most of the time. Better than switching to scoreboard as you won´t be able to see what´s going on ingame anymore which puts yourself and your teammates in danger.

Quote[/b] ]It is simply the desire to participate in battle and take down soldiers.

Yes that is all fine if it is done within the team-frame. Unfortunally that´s not the case with some. Takes me to the initial point again that you put your team into danger by doing such and also hinder your team at the objective(s). It happens often that people who can´t keep their butts down for a second and are on the scorehunt get into the line of fire of the team and hinder their actions. Apart from that they often expose themselves which directs attention of enemies towards the whole team. I guess we all know the cases were parts of the team were taken out by a tank or by a well placed enemy grenade because of the actions of a single one.

This is annoying and not necessary as the whole team gets punished because of the wrongdoing of a single one and often these are the points where a mission starts to be doomed.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

mkay how do you like my King Connery face (see avatar)? Just made it with psp7 and google.  

looks good. make sure mouth, eyes and nose is at the right spot, Hardrock for example looks pretty strange from the sides. Can you show a larger screenshot of it?

[KingN 249]

mkay how do you like my King Connery face (see avatar)? Just made it with psp7 and google.  

looks good. make sure mouth, eyes and nose is at the right spot, Hardrock for example looks pretty strange from the sides. Can you show a larger screenshot of it?

Well this is as big as it gets. I don't have any other pics of it at the moment but you'll see it more properly next sunday.

[hardrock 1]

Hardrock for example looks pretty strange from the sides.

Ya, just try to find good 3-view photographs of skulls on the net

But this gets kinda OT

[Llauma 0]

Here's a translated and modified list of commands found on LDD Kyllikki's site. If it has some errors or if something is unclear or something that could be modified just ask and I'll fix it if it's resonable.

1 - Move

Return to formation : Fall back into last given formation.

- Advance : Advance with the leader even though enemies have been spotted. Or advance to the given waypoint where they will stop and get set.

- Stay Back : Normally given as an order to specific players such as medic etc. When moving in a convoy stay back means that soft vehicles keeps a distance behind the leading tank.

- Flank Left : The group or the ordered soldiers tries to move into a position left of the target. If not ordered to engage the same rules applies as if with the group.

- Flank Right : The same as above but from the right.

- Stop/Halt : All players stop and gets set.

- Wait For Me : The ordered group holds the ground until further orders are given.

- Find Cover : The group gets in closest cover and gets ready to fire.

- Next Waypoint : Advance to the next waypoint (not normally used)

2 - Target

- No Target : Stop targeting a specific target.

- Target xxxxx : The ordered men targets the given target. Normally given to AT soldiers. If all men are ordered to target a tank only those with AT's should engage it. When ordered to target a unit you still keep the formation unless told otherwise.

*Note that 'target a unit' is not a order to open fire or leave the formation to hunt him down.

3 - Engage

- Open Fire : This one doesn't really work for human players so it's not being used.

- Hold Fire : Hold fire unless fired upon. If a patrol surprises us and opens fire it's allowed to fire back. If a patrol is far away or haven't got alerted all holds fire.

- Fire : The ordered group opens fire at the given target

- Engage : This order is given to the group after the players have been set. The players have no specific targets.

- Engage at Will : This order is given when the group is moving in dangerous enviroments and where no specific fire commands can be given. Engage at Will is also given when the group moves in to clear a town.

- Disengage : Irtautumiskäsky. (Ei tarkoita "hold firea", vaan käsketyt yksiköt irtautuvat vihollisen tulituksesta turvallisen matkan päähän, kumoaa engage-käskyt)

- Scan Horizon : This means that the players need to be keeping their eyes open. The man left of the leader keeps an eye on the left etc.

- Watch Direction : The group or player scans the given direction. It's also given to the group to be alert on a patrol or other danger in the given direction.

4 - Mount

- Board (mount) : Board the ordered vehicle. Do not enter as driver/gunner unless given the specific order.

- Disembark : Disembark and fall into formation.

5 - Status

- Call Support : A leader command which allows him to request support to the location which he's at.

- Fuel Low : Not really used..

- Ammo Low : What can I say? Ammo low is ammo low..

- Injured : When injured report that and the leader will get a injured marker which allows him to easily order the medic to the right soldier.

- Report Status : Leader command. Often asked by the leader when he wants to know if the players are set or not. Answer either 'ready to fire' or 'cannot fire'. If you are set but have no target reply with 'ready'.

- I'm Under Fire : Normally not used but if your group is on a task far away a quick report to the leader is useful.

- One Less : Report that the given target is down (right mouse button)

- ... is down : If someone in the group dies close to you use the right mouse button to report that he is down and the leader wont be giving orders to dead soldiers.

6 - Action

- The leader gives a specific action to a soldier. Medics gets the location of a injured soldier etc.

7 - Combat Mode

- Stealth : The group moves stealthy which means hold fire and avoid alerting the enemy. It's okay to stand up unless another order is given.

- Danger : Immediate danger. Move carefully and be prepaired for an encounter with the enemy. When we encounter a enemy get down and report their position. If not spotted hold fire and if fired upon fire back.

- Aware : Normal mode. Always at mission start and active until given another order. Hold fire, keep in formation (wedge).

- Safe : No danger. Rearm if needed to.

- Stand Up : Get up. Also a order to keep following the leader and not to get prone when ordered to advance.

- Go Prone : Hit the dirt is given when being surprised by an enemy. Hold the ground and be ready to fire. Keep prone until another order is given.

- Keep Low : Stay in formation. Get prone and stand up when the leader does so. Keep formation unless told otherwise.

8 - Formation

- Column : The group stays in a row and follows the foot steps of the leader. ------

- Staggered Column : A shorter version of a column. /\/\/\

- Wedge : A upside down V with the leader infront.

- Echelon Left : All men keeps left of the leader in a 45 degree angle.

- Echelon Right : The opposite of above.

- Vee : V-formation. The leader keeps back while the groups spreads in a V infront.

- Line : The group holds a line with the leader in the middle. The medic stays next behind the leader unless told otherwise.

In all formations except column the even numbers keep on the right and vice versa.

An example of the line:

7 5 3 1 2 4 6 8

      (M)

9 - Team

- The leader assigns the players into group. If no groups have been assigned all are group white. It's important that each players knows their numbers. When the leader asks for a report and you respond the number is next to your name.

0 - Reply

- Roger: When given a specific order to a player he responds with a roger if he can perform it.

- Ready: When the group is ordered to get low and ready to fire respond with a roger if you are set but have no visual of the target.

- Negative: When ordered to perform a task you can't handle respond with a 'negative'

- Ready to Fire: When set and with a/the target in your sight.

- Cannot Fire: When the leader asks for a report but you are not yet set respond with 'cannot fire'.

*Note that this is not being used when you can't see the target. If you are safe respond with ready. The leader will decide if we have the need or the time to wait for you to get ready to fire. Do not leave the formation to get the ultimate fire positions

- Repeat: The leader repeats the last command.

[KingN 249]

Quote[/b] ]In all formations except column the even numbers keep on the right and vice versa.

An example of the line:

7 5 3 1 2 4 6 8

     (M)

This is not necessary is it? Othewise I'm familiar with the commands' meanings.