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Brentk

Human Rights for Guinea Pigs

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Oh geez, another bleeding heart.  Want some band-aids?<span id='postcolor'>

There's nothing as pathetic as teenagers who think cynicism is cool.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">They are not good for "the business"?  WTF does that mean?  What business?  The veggie business?  What?  The sex business?  The car business?  WHAT?<span id='postcolor'>

Restaurant business, or since when have McDonalds been in the veggie business or sex business? Big nasty corporations such as Wal-Mart and McDonalds drive small businesses out of business and reduce competition - not exactly what Adam Smith ment by "a free market"! Megacorps employ less people, pay less and offer less job security than the smaller companies they replace. It's a proven fact.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">People's diet - yes, but its called FREEDOM OF CHOICE.  It's called CAPITALISM.<span id='postcolor'>

Capitalism as in "free market" or capitalism as in "rule of corporations"? Megacorps reduce people's freedom of choice by eliminating competition, promoting "monoculture" and indoctrinating people with their marketing bullshit. Also, since McDonalds pays less for labor and raw materials, they can price their junk aggressively, which certainly appeals to uneducated poor masses. Obesity is most common among poor and uneducated people, thanks to McDonalds, Taco Bell, Burger King etc...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Employees?  WTF has McDonald's done to employees?  Where else can you earn $100K (no, I'm not kidding), get a company car, scholarships, etc for FLIPPING BURGERS?  You don't really believe you get $7/hr. if you work your way up do you?  I know an immigrant with no education who now OWNS a mcdonalds in las vegas..<span id='postcolor'>

Do you actually BELIEVE that crap?! Gosh, you're naive. So much for your "cool" cynicism.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Now, the union-busting comes in.  Great.  You want to change how animals are treated in slaughterhouses and you are pro-union?  Get real.<span id='postcolor'>

More "humane" treatment of animals would also make the business more labor-oriented and thus CREATE jobs, not reduce them. And when did I say I approve all union policies?

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Brentk @ Jan. 15 2002,09:07)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">gee i think im gonna go eat me a burger now.....<span id='postcolor'>

Make sure it's a veggie one. biggrin.gif

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yes, but since you can produce more vegetarian food with the same resources, I think it's stupid and selfish for people to eat meat while millions are starving. The steak won't end up on someone's plate in the third world, but the truth is that many third world countries export huge amounts of agricultural products to industrialized countries. Most of that gets fed to pigs and cows. So, indirectly, that steak you ate could have been someone's dinner in South America or Africa.<span id='postcolor'>

This is just bollocks. If you feed all of your veggie (bad tasting) products to humans it just takes a couple of years for people to multiply to a point where even this is not enough. And then somebody will starve. Starvation is INEVITABLE at some timepoint (barring colonization of space) as long as there are people who reproduce as crazy. No westerner need to feel bad for eating their steaks. Instead, we should educate the third world to make fewer babies.

I just hate it when these so called "alternative" political movements are led by some dumb humanists who live in some fairy tale. A little natural science education is just fabulous in showing you what kind of world we really live in and how it works. Animals are not that different from humans.

So, "alternatives", back to the drawing board with you.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Delfia @ Jan. 15 2002,13:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">This is just bollocks. If you feed all of your veggie (bad tasting) products to humans it just takes a couple of years for people to multiply to a point where even this is not enough. And then somebody will starve. Starvation is INEVITABLE at some timepoint (barring colonization of space) as long as there are people who reproduce as crazy. No westerner need to feel bad for eating their steaks. Instead, we should educate the third world to make fewer babies.

I just hate it when these so called "alternative" political movements are led by some dumb humanists who live in some fairy tale. A little natural science education is just fabulous in showing you what kind of world we really live in and how it works. Animals are not that different from humans.

So, "alternatives", back to the drawing board with you.<span id='postcolor'>

First of all, veggie food isn't necessarily bad tasting. Ahem, as a matter of fact, I cook EXCELLENT veggie food which even my meat-eating friends find rather good.

Second, the whole "overpopulation explanation" is half crap. If the resources of the world were used efficiently and distributed evenly, the world could support 12 - 30 billion people (yes, 30 billion is rather optimistic, estimations vary). While education, especially educating women, decreases birth rate, it doesn't solve the problem. The real problem is poverty. While the precious and scarse farmland is owned by very few people, most of which use the land to produce exports for the industrialized world, the poor cannot afford food even if there was enough of it. Labor force is the only thing the poor people have to sell, more children means more people trying to earn a living for the family. Not to mention that children are supposed to take care of their parents when they grow older.

The "population explosion" is largely a myth and exists to justify the extremely biased distribution of world resources. Did you know that the richest 20% of population own more than 80% of the world's resources? Or that Michael Jordan is paid more for a Nike ad campaign than the 70000 Indonesians are paid a year for manufacturing the damn sneakers? Or that a Western kid consumes approximately 30 times the resources an African kid does?

90% of the reasoning "justifying" the way world is is simply BS, so don't come telling me that I'm the one bullshitting. Open your eyes.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">There's nothing as pathetic as teenagers who think cynicism is cool.<span id='postcolor'>

Uh, I am not a teenager.  And the opposite of bleeding heart is not cynicism, look it up.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Restaurant business, or since when have McDonalds been in the veggie business or sex business? Big nasty corporations such as Wal-Mart and McDonalds drive small businesses out of business and reduce competition - not exactly what Adam Smith ment by "a free market"! Megacorps employ less people, pay less and offer less job security than the smaller companies they replace. It's a proven fact.<span id='postcolor'>

So, let me get this straight: we prevent corporations so that small businesses can thrive.  This is capitalism?  Nice one!  How's the weather in fantasyland?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Capitalism as in "free market" or capitalism as in "rule of corporations"? Megacorps reduce people's freedom of choice by eliminating competition, promoting "monoculture" and indoctrinating people with their marketing bullshit. Also, since McDonalds pays less for labor and raw materials, they can price their junk aggressively, which certainly appeals to uneducated poor masses. Obesity is most common among poor and uneducated people, thanks to McDonalds, Taco Bell, Burger King etc...<span id='postcolor'>

Again with the revised definition of capitalism?  How can you be the best you can be if you are stifled once you become successful?

So, McDonalds now has to pay more for their labor and raw materials so they are higher priced and attract the rich as well as the poor?  Give some kind of idea here instead of spouting liberalism.

Isn't it odd how America has the only poor people in the world who are obese?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Do you actually BELIEVE that crap?! Gosh, you're naive. So much for your "cool" cynicism.<span id='postcolor'>

Uhhh, if I see it, then, yes I usually believe it.  And what's your obsession with "cool" cynicism?  It's not even cynicism.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">More "humane" treatment of animals would also make the business more labor-oriented and thus CREATE jobs, not reduce them. And when did I say I approve all union policies?<span id='postcolor'>

Oh, so you approve of SOME union policies, then?

And, we can debate all day on "humane" treatment of animals.  But here's something to think about: a lot of "uneducated" people will lose their jobs because they are no longer skilled enough to treat these animals "humanely."  Try explaining that to a union.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (4ntifa @ Jan. 15 2002,02:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Second, the whole "overpopulation explanation" is half crap. If the resources of the world were used efficiently and distributed evenly, the world could support 12 - 30 billion people (yes, 30 billion is rather optimistic, estimations vary). While education, especially educating women, decreases birth rate, it doesn't solve the problem. The real problem is poverty. While the precious and scarse farmland is owned by very few people, most of which use the land to produce exports for the industrialized world, the poor cannot afford food even if there was enough of it. Labor force is the only thing the poor people have to sell, more children means more people trying to earn a living for the family. Not to mention that children are supposed to take care of their parents when they grow older.

The "population explosion" is largely a myth and exists to justify the extremely biased distribution of world resources. Did you know that the richest 20% of population own more than 80% of the world's resources? Or that Michael Jordan is paid more for a Nike ad campaign than the 70000 Indonesians are paid a year for  manufacturing the damn sneakers? Or that a Western kid consumes approximately 30 times the resources an African kid does?

90% of the reasoning "justifying" the way world is is simply BS, so don't come telling me that I'm the one bullshitting. Open your eyes.<span id='postcolor'>

1. Yes, we could feed the entire world and house everyone and so on and so forth. But I refuse to live in a communist country. Communism doesn't work for humans. It works for animals.

2. While the precious and scarse farmland is owned by very few people, most of which use the land to produce exports for the industrialized world, the poor cannot afford food even if there was enough of it.

Again with the communism. Knock it off already, it failed, look at Russia. Look at China. Look at North Korea. Look at Cuba. Jesus CHrist! Go live there if it's so great!

3. The "population explosion" is largely a myth

Sure, so is the ozone hole. Whats your proof besides the propoganda you are spouting?

4. Did you know that the richest 20% of population own more than 80% of the world's resources?

DId you know that the top 5% of rich americans pay 50% of the tax burden? And the bottom 5% of poor americans pay zilch? I don't know how else to say this:

COMMUNISM DOES NOT WORK

5. Michael Jordan is paid more for a Nike ad campaign than the 70000 Indonesians are paid a year for manufacturing the damn sneakers?

And the point is....?

6. Or that a Western kid consumes approximately 30 times the resources an African kid does?

And again, you are trying to say.....?

7. 90% of the reasoning "justifying" the way world is is simply BS, so don't come telling me that I'm the one bullshitting. Open your eyes.

How's this: Africa is poor because they never practiced democracy and capitalism. Russia is bankrupt because they were communists.

The US is rich and powerful because we are land of the free and the home of the brave.

Michael Jordan is rich because he is an American and he is the best in what he does.

Bill Gates, Larry Ellison, Warren Buffett and even the Rockafellers are filthy rich because they live the American dream.

There is no reason for ANY AMERICAN to be poor. Everyone has a shot at making it. Look at the homeless around you. They are drunk and lazy or mentally ill. I certainly would not want to be forced to share the stuff I EARNED to people who do not even work.

Let's hear some real arguments besides your propoganda, ok?

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I must say i especially enjoyed reading the following lines biggrin.gif

"COMMUNISM DOES NOT WORK

5. Michael Jordan is paid more for a Nike ad campaign than the 70000 Indonesians are paid a year for manufacturing the damn sneakers?

And the point is....?"

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Let's hear some real arguments besides your propoganda, ok?<span id='postcolor'>

Everything YOU said is what your government wants you and my government wants me to believe. THAT is propaganda. Instead of believing what the elite wants me to believe, I've taken the time to observe and conclude, to read and research.

If you want some facts, check out the books I recommended. They're not just some "silly humanist's" statements from the top of his/her hat, they're what's called scientific writing: filled with references to statistics and researches.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yes, we could feed the entire world and house everyone and so on and so forth. But I refuse to live in a communist country. Communism doesn't work for humans. It works for animals.<span id='postcolor'>

Tell me, when did I say communism is the solution? I do admit I'm a "liberal leftist" which is quite damn near to a communist, but communism is more a source of inspiration than a cure for all the problems. The one and only thing I DEFINITELY think is right in communism is it's goal: happiness and equality. I don't approve of most of the means proposed by Marx, or especially the ones by Lenin or Mao.

I support capitalism in it's "free market" meaning, but not in it's modern right-wing neolibertarian sense. I strongly support rules and regulations to control the market forces, since market forces are not moral nor do they thrive for the public good.

What really pisses me off is the American concept of liberty. To an American, regulations are an opposite to freedom, while to me, they can actually be the means to achieve freedom. If limiting someone's freedom (say, McDonald's or Wal-Mart's or Microsoft's freedom to use their size to kill off competition) achieves more freedom to more people, it's definitely good. An American thinks it's "communism" - not that the average American knew what "communism" actually is!

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The "population explosion" is largely a myth

Sure, so is the ozone hole. Whats your proof besides the propoganda you are spouting?<span id='postcolor'>

So, where's YOUR proof? Who's propaganda YOU are spouting? Population explosion does exist, but it is NOT the root of the hunger & poverty problem. The neocolonialist system is. Check out: http://www.debtchannel.org/guide/front.shtml

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Or that a Western kid consumes approximately 30 times the resources an African kid does?

And again, you are trying to say.....?<span id='postcolor'>

... that this can't go on. Where's your sense of justice? Or compassion?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">There is no reason for ANY AMERICAN to be poor. Everyone has a shot at making it. Look at the homeless around you. They are drunk and lazy or mentally ill. I certainly would not want to be forced to share the stuff I EARNED to people who do not even work.<span id='postcolor'>

Ever heard of job flight? Unemployment? Sinking wages? They're a reality, in both America and Europe. Especially an American can have various reasons to be poor, including the unfortunate fact that (s)he was born poor and never had a chance.

In Finland, everyone gets not only virtually free education but also modest financial backing during their studies. That's doing a lot more for equality and opportunities than some myth of "the American dream"! Do you call that communism? I call it REAL democracy. It's something you guys have a lot to learn about.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (4ntifa @ Jan. 15 2002,19:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">achieves more freedom to more people, it's definitely good. An American thinks it's "communism" - not that the average American knew what "communism" actually is!<span id='postcolor'>

LOL sounds to me like you've been installing Opf one too many times wink.gif

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hey 4nifta a few words:

shut up

dont write so much in one post, i didn't even bother to read it all confused.gif

i think ill go back in a few hours when i have 4-5 hours to read all that you wrote wink.gif

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what? we dont know about communism?? wtf? i dont really get that, maybe theres the occassional oblivious fool walking around america, but most americans know what communism is, and most know that it's the leaders who are bad, not the system....

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Thanks Brentk. Glad to provide entertainment! smile.gif

4ntifa - you've just proven that you disagree with capitalism. Good for you. Now you have a new platform to stand on. Communism doesn't work and capitalism is wonderful. If this modified version of capitalism and democracy is really better, why is the US the most powerful and benevolent country in the world? Why is it up to the US to change the world? Why doesn't some other country that has a better way rise up and show us the way? Oh, that's right! The evil US won't let them.

BTW, it's really bad posture to ask me to read a book to see your point. If you can't clarify yourself in a few lines, then you don't really believe/know what you are arguing. It's called "Argumentum ad verecundiam" or appeal to authority.

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Do all you people wallowing in the mighty joy of capitalism never look at what is going on in the US?

Are you so blind and oblivious to the problems caused by the "American Dream"?

The "American Dream" in it's current guise is simply equal to powermongering. Whoever is better at overpowering others, have special rights and enjoy luxurious and comfortable lives, while a great deal of the populace live in poverty and despair.

And to say that poor people = lazy people is called cultural rascism, and is simply a very unintelligent statement. Read a book once in a while...go talk to some of these 'lazy' people, open your eyes to the world.

If you have learned nothing from history, (some of the comments here about communism sound awfully like what was heard during the Army-McCarthy hearings), maybe it's time you realise that it has a lot to teach. (Including the rise and downfall of many a powerful empire, be it communist or capitalist).

The lesson that we will learn in the future is, that capitalism cannot work in RL, in the same way that communism didn't. They both fall victim to power and corruption.

I can understand it will be painful for "America the great" to realise this, but you might as well prepare for it. Your country is gonna get in a worse and worse state.

Consider yourself meme'd.

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alright retard, can i call you retard? ok, anyway, retard, the 'guise' bullcrap you speak of is exactly that, bullcrap. The American Dream is only met by earning it, those who are rich definetly have it better than the rest, cause they EARNED IT. The poor Americans and homeless ones are that way because they are lazy, they say they couldnt get an education but in reality they could have and still can, the american dream hasn't changed and is still what it was, people are just lazy. Get over pal, i don't know how you seem to be so naive to this topic, but you are. Sure there is the occassional Coporate monster or whatever, but you act like the whole god damn US is that way. Where the hell do you get these stupid ideas from?

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LOL! Nordin, you are hitting new levels of idiocity here.

Talk to the bum who drinks all day so I can LEARN?

"capitalism cannot work in RL"confused.gif

Good god man. Look at the keyboard you are using, the PC you are connected to the INTERNET with. Capitalism doesn't work? Ask youself why you are not freezing in a dark room with a bowl of curry for a meal.

Thanks for the amusement. YOu can stop kidding around now.

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Okay, now this post is getting way off-topic from what it was started as...

Animals (regardless of whether they are being bred for eating or as pets.. or simply being wild etc.) should be protected from cruelty by savage mindless human beings who think "Yumm.... Panda bear claws..." or "Oooh.. Tiger's tongue will give me virility"

There is a need for some animals to be slaughtered to provide meat. Humans have evolved to be able to eat a variety of meat and vegetables, which provides us with a stable diet.

Thus, some animals will invariably be killed. What doesn't need to happen however, is the cruel ways of killing those animals. (Ie. Making cows stressed before being killed to make the meat more tender)

And we certainly don't need live animals having their paws cut off just so that some person in a resteraunt can have a meal.

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I don't think cows have any feelings, nor pandas, nor can they be "stressed." In any case, does it REALLY MATTER? What's wrong with stressing a cow anyway? It's "inhumane"? What's a "humane" way?

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Um actually its been proven that even plants have feelings and that they 'Scream' if you break a stem.

As for cows being stressed.. they zap them with tazer like stun guns to make then panic before they have their throats slit..

Why can't they just be killed quickly and without un-necessary pain caused to the animal.

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Ooh! Oooh! I know! I know! /me raises hand

It's because if their blood is rushing through their muscles and the rest of their body, the meat tastes better.

I'm sure you're right about the plants and feelings thing. But then again, they are plants and animals.

I don't want to get into a debate on animal suffering, but I DO think it's odd how selective humans are on this topic. I mean, everyone worries about the dolphins in tuna nets for example, but what about the tuna? Noone cares. *sniff*

I'm going to bed as well.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (OBiJuan @ Jan. 15 2002,21:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If this modified version of capitalism and democracy is really better, why is the US the most powerful and benevolent country in the world?  Why is it up to the US to change the world?  Why doesn't some other country that has a better way rise up and show us the way?  Oh, that's right!  The evil US won't let them.<span id='postcolor'>

While USA definitely isn't the "most benevolent" country in the world, it is the most powerful. The obvious reason is HISTORY. Europe was devastated by WWII, while USA was in it only for half of the war and did not have it's infrastructure destroyed. Having superior production capacity and being the only country to have any capital to invest, USA economically conquered Europe after the war.

The shitty part is that in the recent decades, USA has become a vehicle for corporate world domination. European countries have joined forces with the corporations, which pretty much means that they're becoming more and more like USA: vehicles for corporate power. I definitely have a problem with that.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">First of all, veggie food isn't necessarily bad tasting. Ahem, as a matter of fact, I cook EXCELLENT veggie food which even my meat-eating friends find rather good.<span id='postcolor'>

This is completely a matter of taste. I have eaten whatnot and can say that veggie food sucks (in my opinion). If you want to stop me eating meat, you'll have to kill me. Let's drop this issue, though.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Second, the whole "overpopulation explanation" is half crap. If the resources of the world were used efficiently and distributed evenly, the world could support 12 - 30 billion people (yes, 30 billion is rather optimistic, estimations vary). While education, especially educating women, decreases birth rate, it doesn't solve the problem. The real problem is poverty. While the precious and scarse farmland is owned by very few people, most of which use the land to produce exports for the industrialized world, the poor cannot afford food even if there was enough of it. Labor force is the only thing the poor people have to sell, more children means more people trying to earn a living for the family. Not to mention that children are supposed to take care of their parents when they grow older.<span id='postcolor'>

If you look at the current world population, we are not that far from that 12 billion. Anyway, supporting 12-30 billion people means that everyone of those people is equally poor. Since all life is programmed to struggle for its own betterment, this kind of equally divided poverty does not work in real life, not with humans, not with gerbils, not with bacteria. While I admit that in Finland we have a nice social security network, Finland has struggled horribly to get to where it is. And there simply isn't enough stuff to go around to give everyone this kind of standard of living. Not everyone can be rich. A lot of people need to die, because we do not fit on this globe.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The "population explosion" is largely a myth and exists to justify the extremely biased distribution of world resources.<span id='postcolor'>

It has been proven that all mammalian species multiply following a sigmoidal curve. The upper limit of population is defined either by predators or the supporting capability of the environment. Since nobody hunts us, our population is limited by the supporting capability of the environment. Since we are now so near this limit, there is a lot of struggle between individuals (nations and single people) trying to grab as much of the limited stack as possible. Hence poverty and unrest. The strongest will survive. It's just the way life works.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Did you know that the richest 20% of population own more than 80% of the world's resources? Or that Michael Jordan is paid more for a Nike ad campaign than the 70000 Indonesians are paid a year for  manufacturing the damn sneakers? Or that a Western kid consumes approximately 30 times the resources an African kid does?<span id='postcolor'>

I don't mind if you rein in the corporations, even if you do it because of your humanist morals, which have no validity in the natural world. This monopolism thing by the big corporations isn't a good thing. But if you try to take something of mine, I will fight you. I have struggled to get to where I am.

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