The Middle East part 2

[mp_phonix 0]

Balschoiw, I allready explained : They build tunnels from houses, we destroy houses, and yes we destroy them because they "may have tunnels or that tunnels wil be duged."

We have the right to defend ourselfs, and Jinef, we bring up the "whole holocust thing" so that people will not forget that we do have the right to exist & the right to defend ourselves.

You said 16,000 houses and only 90 tunnels. If we wouldn't destroy them, then it would be alot more tunnels.

People said the we occupaying Gaza and sitting in Rafah in the 'Philadelphy line", {where they build tunnels}, we left Gaza for them, and what they do ? build a tunnel, attack outpost, execute 2 soldiers and kidnhap one.

You probably say : "What execution, what you talking about?",

Yes, after they {terrorist} shot at the tank, they climbed into the hatch and open it , forced the 2 soldier out-side, which did not ressist because they were shooked from the 3 or so RPG's, and shot them from close rang. Let's see you not calling it execution.

You know we gave Gaza a chance. I really could understand If they did that in the west bank & so because there is settlers there etc. But nooooooooooooooooooo, they think that they are the GLA & startinng to build tunnels into the Israel terretory. Most of the phalastinian population support the kidnhapping, did you know that ?

It's their problem. we gave them a chance, they blew it.

About Rachel "The pancake". Sirously, her problem. she should have mind her own buisnes, freaking rich kids that look for excitment in life.

[Badgerboy 0]

Can someone explain to me why striking power stations and bridges is going to help find a single soldier? If your not going to put boots on the ground, then systematically destroying what remains of their infrastructure is not going to help.

Case in point. Back in the day, the IRA kidnapped a few british squaddies, usually torturing the poor bastards with power drills. Following Israel's logic, the UK should have launched a systematic military attack against Ireland, rolling our tanks over the border, and destroying civilian infrastructure.

But they didn't. They tended to use special forces groups, who if they didn't rescue the kidnaped subjects, normally tracked down the kipnappers and slayed them brutally. All done quietly without upsetting the locals.

And guess what, our approach worked. We have peace, you don't. Guess we didn't blow up enough houses and civilians eh?

And a quick comparision. The IRA were just as vicious as Hamas have ever been. They would happily kill as many civilians as needed, torture people they didn't like, and were a damnsight better trained than your average Hamas militiaman.

[Ironsight 1]

Can someone explain to me why striking power stations and bridges is going to help find a single soldier? If your not going to put boots on the ground, then systematically destroying what remains of their infrastructure is not going to help.

Disrupt communication and infrastructure to give the Israeli military a bit more time to find the soldier.

Quote[/b] ]But they didn't. They tended to use special forces groups, who if they didn't rescue the kidnaped subjects, normally tracked down the kipnappers and slayed them brutally. All done quietly without upsetting the locals.

I don't think Israeli SF would be able to get over the streets of Gaza very easy. You can't compare Irish terrain with Gaza. Large parts of the Gaza strip are urbanised which makes it hard for Israeli SF to move through the strip undetected.

Not that I am a fan of this approach but I don't think they have any other choice

[Messiah 2]

And guess what, our approach worked. We have peace, you don't. Guess we didn't blow up enough houses and civilians eh?

if you idea of peace refers to the IRA not bombing british targets anymore - there are still deep seeded resenments and turmoil in Northern Ireland, and it wouldnt take much to send that province back 30 years.

Ironsight pointed it out best, in NI, the IRA tended to keep hostages in their safe houses, generally out in the countryside in disused farms, or just over the border in Ireland. Hence a SF snatch squad were alot more effective.

Israel is far more complicated a situation, more so than NI ever was. Ironically enough, it's partially us Brits to blame as well . This incursion into Gaza worries me a hell of alot - according to the BBC the hamas militants et al have been setting up baricades and ambush points (plus IED's i imagine etc) to slow down/halt the israeli advance. If the militants who kidnapped the soldier are correct (they said he was being kept where the israeli's would never find him) this can only turn into a long drawn out bloody battle... israeli wont want to be seen to retreat in the face of humiliation and not finding 'their man'...

[Badgerboy 0]

Can someone explain to me why striking power stations and bridges is going to help find a single soldier? If your not going to put boots on the ground, then systematically destroying what remains of their infrastructure is not going to help.

Disrupt communication and infrastructure to give the Israeli military a bit more time to find the soldier.

This might be applicable when dealing with foreign military, but I think its a little over the top when dealing with a small group of people. A small party can easily move around, which they would do under the cover of darkness anyway. I think these strikes are merely posturing and flexing of muscles. Shame the citizens of Gaza have to suffer for it.

As for Israeli SF, they don't have to enter a urban area all tooled up! All SF groups train for urban snatches. Usually dressed as civilians, and armed with small arms. Israel are always touting how good their SF are, put 'em to work. Sadly now that they have 'kicked in the door' and blow stuff to bits, thats going to be impossible.

I'm only glad the Israeli military doesn't do that much peacekeeping, it over-reacts so much.

[mp_phonix 0]

What is the point of putting SF to work if we don't know where the hostage is ?

[Messiah 2]

a similiar argument could be made with the huge force they're sending it... unless its trying to do sweeps of Gaza...

you never know, this could all be a show of force, whilst MOSAD do the dirty work behind this bravado on the front line.

[Badgerboy 0]

What is the point of putting SF to work if we don't know where the hostage is ?

Unless they are kicking in all the doors of every house of Gaza, tell me how the IDF are going to find him then?

[Messiah 2]

I wouldnt think they know his exact location already - either they are indeed going to kick down every door in Gaza (doubtful) or this is nothing more than Israel trying to make its intentions clear, buying some leverage from Hamas and its militants to see sense and release the soldier...

it would seem reasonable to expect that if they knew is exact location, they would have taken the direct approach. This seems more of a 'message' to palestine.

[Badgerboy 0]

I wouldnt think they know his exact location already - either they are indeed going to kick down every door in Gaza (doubtful) or this is nothing more than Israel trying to make its intentions clear, buying some leverage from Hamas and its militants to see sense and release the soldier...

it would seem reasonable to expect that if they knew is exact location, they would have taken the direct approach. This seems more of a 'message' to palestine.

I hope they are planning to rebuild all the infrastructure they destroyed once they have finished broadcasting this message.

[Messiah 2]

Im not doubting the (trying to choose my words carefully) that they may have an idea, but a vague one at best... we've seen the lengths the israeli's have gone to before...

do you truely think they know where he is to the exact location? If so, this show of force is greatly exadurated for such a cause... its a flexing of muscles... 'Dont fuck with me' so to speak...

each to their own opinion i guess... I just dont believe this movement relates to knowing where he is, besides in Gaza.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Balschoiw, I allready explained : They build tunnels from houses, we destroy houses, and yes we destroy them because they "may have tunnels or that tunnels wil be duged."

Again, you call this an explanation ?

There have been 90 assumed tunnels or entrances to tunnels found and the IDF destroyed 16.000 houses.

Don´t you think that your reasoning is somewhat flawed ?

Why don´t they use ground radar to detect tunnels ?

It would be cheaper and more safe for IDF troops then sending in D9 crushers. If you are so concerned about the security of IDF troops why don´t you support almost risk-free approaches to tunnels ?

So you are supporting exposing IDf troops to unnesessary risks , yes ?

As you don´t seem to get it:

90 alleged tunnels or parts of tunnels found.

16.000 houses destroyed.

There is absolutely NO justification for a behaviour like that.

have you read the transcript of the interview of the IDF D9 driver ? No ? Do it and spare your breath on the tunnel claim if you don´t want to make yourself the village-fool here.

Quote[/b] ]Yes, after they {terrorist} shot at the tank, they climbed into the hatch and open it , forced the 2 soldier out-side, which did not ressist because they were shooked from the 3 or so RPG's, and shot them from close rang. Let's see you not calling it execution.

OMG

So what is the difference of killing people ?

One side does it by helo and kills bystanders or simply drive them over or blow up houses and the other side does the same with the equipment they have.

I´m pretty sure if they had long range weapon systems they would make use of them. Would this make it more just, yes ?

Quote[/b] ]But nooooooooooooooooooo, they think that they are the GLA & startinng to build tunnels into the Israel terretory.

But yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees your country gained land by building a wall around the palestines and fencing them in like a herd of sheep. not to be mentionede that the wall was declared illegal, but hey, who the fuck cares as it´s the victim people, they are allowed to break whatever law needed to enforce THEIR interests, no matter if they legally have obligations that don´t fit their intersts or not. Just call them all terrorists and blow them up, fence them in and destroy their houses and cut them from basic infrastructure.

Way to go israel, you´re the blinking example of shining freedom and respect towards other people, not.

Period.

[mp_phonix 0]

Balschoiw you just make me laugh . .

I thimk Israel does not know where he is because if they did they would probably try to extract them or smt . .

they destoryed the bridges so that the terrorist will not move him to Gaza city.

btw those terrorist gone rouge, they don't listen to any one.

[Badgerboy 0]

Balschoiw you just make me laugh . .

I thimk Israel does not know where he is because if they did they would probably try to extract them or smt . .

they destoryed the bridges so that the terrorist will not move him to Gaza city.

btw those terrorist gone rouge, they don't listen to any one.

You serioulsy think blowing up a few bridges will stop some men on foot from passing into Gaza? You take out bridges to stop mechanized formations moving around, not foot soldiers!

[mp_phonix 0]

Balschoiw you just make me laugh . .

I thimk Israel does not know where he is because if they did they would probably try to extract them or smt . .

they destoryed the bridges so that the terrorist will not move him to Gaza city.

btw those terrorist gone rouge, they don't listen to any one.

You serioulsy think blowing up a few bridges will stop some men on foot from passing into Gaza? You take out bridges to stop mechanized formations moving around, not foot soldiers!

No, we blew the bridges so they won't move him in cars. If they move on foot they will be spotted because all the civilians are hiding in their homes.

[Badgerboy 0]

Balschoiw you just make me laugh . .

I thimk Israel does not know where he is because if they did they would probably try to extract them or smt . .

they destoryed the bridges so that the terrorist will not move him to Gaza city.

btw those terrorist gone rouge, they don't listen to any one.

You serioulsy think blowing up a few bridges will stop some men on foot from passing into Gaza? You take out bridges to stop mechanized formations moving around, not foot soldiers!

No, we blew the bridges so they won't move him in cars. If they move on foot they will be spotted because all the civilians are hiding in their homes.

Going back to that, planning on rebuilding those bridges once your done?

[Messiah 2]

thats a rather naive comment to make...

so in your view, 100% of civilians are hiding, bridges are the only way to get into israel, and that anyone caught in the open will be shot because they have to be a militant/terrorist

christ, george bush bow down to this man....

[edit]

not your comment badger boy, you posted whilst i was replying...

[mp_phonix 0]

who said anything about shooting everyone that walk outside ? I was just saying probably civillians will be hiding, and if they go outside and hang out willingly near terrorist and the get blowen up by air-strike, it's their problem

[Ironsight 1]

I was just saying probably civillians will be hiding, and if they go outside and hang out willingly near terrorist and the get blowen up by air-strike, it's their problem

What if terrorist willingly hang out near civilians? It's not the first time terrorists use civilians as human shields.

[mp_phonix 0]

so the civillians can go back inside the home . .i dunno

[Messiah 2]

. .i dunno

by george he's got it

[Ironsight 1]

so the civillians can go back inside the home . .i dunno

That won't save them from high-caliber bullets, grenades, HEAT shells and aircraft bombs

[mp_phonix 0]

So what are we suppose to do sit tight ?

[Nemesis6 0]

Israel condemns attacks on its own civilians, but expends an awful lot of energy targeting Palestinian civilians.

I repeat: You believe Israel deliberately targets civilians.

Quote[/b] ]The only possible conclusion for Israel's actions is that is trying to make a Palestinian state un-viable. It's uncomfortably close to genocide by proxy - hold a people under siege, let nature take its course.

Conspiracy nuts, anyone?

[Ironsight 1]

So what are we suppose to do sit tight ?

No, I never said that. I just don't think an invasion of the Gaza strip will help a lot.

To be honest I think the decision to move troops into the Gaza strip was made just made to make the terrorist move around. And while they are moving Israel can gather more intelligence and maybe even pinpoint an exact location of where the hostage is being held.