The Middle East part 2

[billybob2002 0]

You know that's a stupd ass question badger boy. It's not like for example americans kindhaped russian soldier for intellegence, A Terrorist organization kindhaped a soldier for perpurse of "ransom". Israel is "Horrified" because it was an attack on Israeli soil and not on "Israeli outpost inside Gaza strip", we left gaza for them and they pull of this trick. What you think ? after we will get back the soldier they kindnahped Israel is going to enter Gaza strip with tanks, aircraft & infantry. We will not le this one "slide".

Point being....

I have not seen threats like this from Israel for a long time. Why do they appear to have been more outraged by the kidnapping of a Israeli SOLDIER than the death of an un-armed Isreali citizen?

Personally, when you start blowing Palestinian civilians to bits whilst hunting for terrorists, you are guaranteed to get some sort of reprisal. I'd prefer it to be directed at the armed forces, than un-armed civilians. At least the army can defend itself. From the reaction from Israel, it looks like Hamas would be safer attacking civilian targets again.

THAT, being my point.

Israel is angry because they, the terrorists, abducted him and are holding him hostage. The soldier is presume to be alive therefore Israel is taking steps to release him.

[miles teg 1]

I agree with Badgerboy.  It is only going to get alot of Palestinians killed, it will most likely get the captured Israeli soldier exectuted, and it will definitely discourage Palestinian terrorist groups from targeting military targets.  Rather instead it will encourage them to hit "soft" easy targets.

You can say all you want about the need for "justice", but logically, the current operation that is about to be launched will only have negative effects on the situation.  

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Nemesis6 0]

Ok, what happened to Ron Arad when Israel chose to "talk about it"?

Ron Arad is now "MIA" and pressumed dead.

[Balschoiw 0]

It´s not that they ask for the release of mad terrorists...

Quote[/b] ]"First, the immediate release of all women in prison. Second, the immediate release of all children in prison younger than 18." Israel is believed to have incarcerated about 100 women and 300 under-18s among the 9,000 Palestinian prisoners it is holding in its jails.

As the guy won´t be released we will see another collective punishment, house destruction and a show of israeli military might the next days. The guy will be dead, the conflict will escalate and the whole thing starts over and over again.

[mp_phonix 0]

theyl destroy the houses so that the terrorist won't build tunnels, because the entrance to the tunnel was from inside of a house. They always build tunnels from houses.

[Messiah 2]

It´s not that they ask for the release of mad terrorists...

Quote[/b] ]"First, the immediate release of all women in prison. Second, the immediate release of all children in prison younger than 18." Israel is believed to have incarcerated about 100 women and 300 under-18s among the 9,000 Palestinian prisoners it is holding in its jails.

As the guy won´t be released we will see another collective punishment, house destruction and a show of israeli military might the next days. The guy will be dead, the conflict will escalate and the whole thing starts over and over again.

very true, all i can see is the refusal to release any prisoners under the guise of 'we do not negotiate with terrorists', the execution of this soldier, however valuable he may be to the palestinians.

Israel are certain to move into the palestinian territories to recover their man, using whatever means nescesary to achieve it. For their failure to secure a peaceful resolution, Hamas will undoubtadly take the brunt of the blame from Israel and the US, even after they've asked for the humane treatment of the soldier (although they didnt go as far as to say to release him... strange for a government trying to go down the peaceful path)

as Balschoiw, it all begins again

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]theyl destroy the houses so that the terrorist won't build tunnels, because the entrance to the tunnel was from inside of a house. They always build tunnels from houses.

So there have been 16.000 tunnels from Palestine to Israel, right ?

Maybe you want to read this report on the systematic house destructions conducted by IDF troops:

Mass Home Demolitions in the Gaza Strip

The report comes to different findings than you.

I´ll make it easy for you:

Quote[/b] ]Shafts vs. Tunnels. Israeli officials claim to have uncovered approximately ninety tunnels in Rafah since 2000, giving the impression of a vast and burgeoning underground flow of arms into Gaza. When pressed about these claims, the IDF admitted the figure refers to tunnel entrance shafts, some of which connect to existing tunnels and others of which connect to nothing at all. Rather than digging new tunnels, an IDF spokesman told Human Rights Watch, smugglers are often trying to connect to cross-border tunnels that already exist. This is possible in part because, until 2003, the IDF did not seek to close the tunnels themselves, but merely demolished the Rafah homes in which tunnel entrance shafts – operative or inoperative – were found. This tactic caused much destruction and homelessness while leaving tunnels largely intact. Soldiers have been venturing inside tunnels since 2003, though an IDF spokesman told Human Rights Watch that the military does not have the technology to collapse lateral portions of tunnels. In response to an inquiry from Human Rights Watch, the IDF refused to specify how many tunnels versus entrances had been discovered and destroyed. The IDF’s approach – namely, the use of ineffective methods for two years, followed by unclear improvements – contrasts sharply with alarmist Israeli statements on tunnels and the flow of arms.

Quote[/b] ]Inoperative Tunnels. In at least three cases, the IDF has destroyed houses containing inoperative tunnels. In July 2004, residents discovered and reported to the PNA an incomplete shaft in an empty house. A few days later, the IDF destroyed the house and seventeen other houses nearby, leaving 205 people homeless as well as a factory. Human Rights Watch’s onsite assessment just after the incursion, as well as interviews with eyewitnesses and a representative of a Palestinian armed group, indicated that the destruction was militarily unnecessary; even in the home with the tunnel entrance, demolition of the whole house was an excessive response to an incomplete shaft that could have been effectively sealed with concrete. Human Rights Watch documented two other cases in which the IDF appears to have destroyed houses with tunnel shafts that had already been sealed by the PNA. The IDF claims that PNA closures are incomplete.

Quote[/b] ]Alternatives to Home Demolition. According to tunnel experts consulted by Human Rights Watch, a number of less destructive alternatives exist for the effective detection and destruction of smuggling tunnels. No one method is guaranteed to work in all situations, but different techniques can compensate for each other’s shortcomings, and overall conditions in Rafah favor the IDF: Only four kilometers of the border run alongside Rafah, and tunnel depth is limited by the water table – approximately forty-five meters in the camp. In this environment, the IDF could install an array of underground seismic sensors along the border. Known as an “underground fence,†this method has successfully detected digging activity on the U.S.-Mexico border. Other methods, such as electromagnetic induction and ground-penetrating radar, could be used to detect tunnels at the point where they cross the IDF-controlled border, and detection is more likely if the tunnels contain electrical wires, lights, and pulley mechanisms, as the IDF claims. Once the IDF detects tunnels underneath the border, it could dig down and neutralize them with concrete or explosives, obviating the need for incursions into Rafah that result in destroyed homes and sometimes loss of life.

Israel in all likelihood has access to such sophisticated technology, either domestically or through the U.S. government, its closest ally. But the IDF insists it has exhausted all alternatives, and that the current tactics are the only effective way of dealing with the tunnel threat. Despite three requests from Human Rights Watch, the IDF declined to explain the alternative methods it has attempted to detect tunnels and why they did not work. While some information regarding tunnels may be sensitive, the enormous impact on the civilian population of demolitions places the burden on Israel to make the case as to why the only way of dealing with tunnels that run underneath IDF positions is to demolish houses deeper and deeper into the camp.

It´s not about tunnels, it´s about destroying place to live for palestinians and to create a house-free zone along the border and simple disrespect to international law and the geneva conventions.

Read the report and come in again.

[mp_phonix 0]

You saying Israel are doing it for fun ? PLEASE !

[Balschoiw 0]

Have you fainted after 2 lines of reading ?

Quote[/b] ]It´s not about tunnels, it´s about destroying place to live for palestinians and to create a house-free zone along the border and simple disrespect to international law and the geneva conventions.

You saying Israel has destroyed 16.000 houses as there was a tunnel under each of them ? PLEASE !

[mp_phonix 0]

No. Israel destoryed them because all of the tunnels that were digged started from houses so they destroyed houses so that the terrorist won't build from them in the future. it's simple : no houses, no tunnels.

[Nemesis6 0]

You saying Israel has destroyed 16.000 houses as there was a tunnel under each of them ? PLEASE !

Homes of terrorists and houses harboring smuggling tunnels are the main targets. Are you saying that the majority of them weren't at least one of the above? By the way: That was what happened to Rachel 'The Pancake' Corrie. They claim that she protected a house from being demolished. Too bad she didn't know about what the house was used for - Smuggling arms/equipment/whatnot.

[EiZei 0]

Rachel 'The Pancake' Corrie.

Cute.

[scary 0]

No. Israel destoryed them because all of the tunnels that were digged started from houses so they destroyed houses so that the terrorist won't build from them in the future. it's simple : no houses, no tunnels.

Except it's not that simple. For a start, you've just had a soldier kidnapped by use of a tunnel. No houses, still tunnels.

16,000 houses destroyed means 16,000, largely innocent, families homeless. With at least 5 people per family, that is a minimum of 80,000 people, already in poverty, now without homes or any other possessions. Those 80,000 people now really despise Israel. Do you think they are more or less likely to become terrorists or terrorist sympathisers? With the very limited social service structure available to them, who do you think are the most likely people to come to their rescue - terrorist groups by any chance? No doubt, some of these people were already terrorists - but how is Israel supposed to monitor them and collect intelligence now they have effectively disappeared from a structured environment?

Detecting tunnels in such circumstances is easy, and well within Israels capabilities. Destroying tunnels is also very easy -

Quote[/b] ]an IDF spokesman told Human Rights Watch that the military does not have the technology to collapse lateral portions of tunnels.

An IDF spokesman is talking nonsense. Both military and civil engineers are quite capable of setting demolitions charges - a large proportion of infantry are capable of doing such a job, and it doesn't take a PhD and all the equipment of NATO to fill a shaft with concrete/rubble.

Destroying the homes of terrorists isn't unreasonable. Destroying homes because they are in the neighbourhood of terrorists is despicable. Collective punishment is against international law for a reason, only Israel and some of the world's worst dictators employ it. With some of its people being the victims of collective punishment in the past, Israel really should know better.

Do you know everything your neighbours do? What if it transpired that one of your neighbours was colluding with Palestinian terrorists? Would you think it justifiable that their house and all the other houses in the neighbourhood, including yours, were destroyed? It would be no different than doing it in Palestine.

Israel condemns attacks on its own civilians, but expends an awful lot of energy targeting Palestinian civilians. The only possible conclusion for Israel's actions is that is trying to make a Palestinian state un-viable. It's uncomfortably close to genocide by proxy - hold a people under siege, let nature take its course.

That was what happened to Rachel 'The Pancake' Corrie.

Well done, that wins the award for sickest comment I've seen or heard today.

[bucket man 2]

No. Israel destoryed them because all of the tunnels that were digged started from houses so they destroyed houses so that the terrorist won't build from them in the future. it's simple : no houses, no tunnels.

Yes it is very simple.

Homeless people because of IDF = more terrorists.

[mp_phonix 0]

16,000 houses destroyed means 16,000, largely innocent, families homeless. With at least 5 people per family, that is a minimum of 80,000 people, already in poverty, now without homes or any other possessions.

Detecting tunnels in such circumstances is easy, and well within Israels capabilities. Destroying tunnels is also very easy -

Quote[/b] ]an IDF spokesman told Human Rights Watch that the military does not have the technology to collapse lateral portions of tunnels.

An IDF spokesman is talking nonsense. Both military and civil engineers are quite capable of setting demolitions charges - a large proportion of infantry are capable of doing such a job, and it doesn't take a PhD and all the equipment of NATO to fill a shaft with concrete/rubble.

Destroying the homes of terrorists isn't unreasonable. Destroying homes because they are in the neighbourhood of terrorists is despicable. Collective punishment is against international law for a reason, only Israel and some of the world's worst dictators employ it. With some of its people being the victims of collective punishment in the past, Israel really should know better.

Do you know everything your neighbours do? What if it transpired that one of your neighbours was colluding with Palestinian terrorists? Would you think it justifiable that their house and all the other houses in the neighbourhood, including yours, were destroyed? It would be no different than doing it in Palestine.

Israel condemns attacks on its own civilians, but expends an awful lot of energy targeting Palestinian civilians. The only possible conclusion for Israel's actions is that is trying to make a Palestinian state un-viable. It's uncomfortably close to genocide by proxy - hold a people under siege, let nature take its course.

That was what happened to Rachel 'The Pancake' Corrie.

Well done, that wins the award for sickest comment I've seen or heard today.

yeah, they are so innocent that they are letting terrorist dig tunnels from their house.

About the last even, I can see that you don;t know what you are talking about, that tunnel was digged from several houses and connected.

[scary 0]

yeah, they are so innocent that they are letting terrorist dig tunnels from their house.

If you take a look at the whole clause, it says largely innocent. Not all 16,000 homes had tunnels, as Balschoiw showed you, in the last 6 years approximately 90 inter-connected tunnel entrances have been found - less tunnels. That means a maximum of around 90 houses to be legitimately demolished.

Quote[/b] ]About the last even, I can see that you don;t know what you are talking about, that tunnel was digged from several houses and connected.

I'm not quite sure what point you are trying to make here. To begin with, I have had extensive training in both tunnel and cave warfare, so definitely do know what I am talking about. Secondly, I never said it didn't have multiple entrances, tunnels usually do. I did say:

Quote[/b] ]Destroying the homes of terrorists isn't unreasonable.

But that doesn't change the fact that Israel don't only demolish the houses with the tunnel entrances - they destroy every house in the area - tunnel or no tunnel, while they fail to destroy the tunnels themselves.

There is no tactical or strategic reason for Israel's actions. It doesn't prevent the tunnels, is does create lots of potential terrorists with a quite legitimate grudge, and - the pun is unavoidable - it drives known terrorists underground.

[Nemesis6 0]

That was what happened to Rachel 'The Pancake' Corrie.

Well done, that wins the award for sickest comment I've seen or heard today.

Now that's ironic coming from a terror apologist, seeing that they, her loony friends, actually organized a memorial breakfast called the Rachel Corrie Memorial Pancake breakfast. This event was organized by "The Rachel Corrie Memorial Committee of Victoria". So, to quote - Heavy on the syrup.

[scary 0]

Now that's ironic coming from a terror apologist, seeing that they, her loony friends, actually organized a memorial breakfast called the Rachel Corrie Memorial Pancake breakfast. This event was organized by "The Rachel Corrie Memorial Committee of Victoria".

Perhaps you could explain how someone who has spent many years combating terrorists on three different continents is a 'terror apologist'. Any evidence would do.

Perhaps you could even debate the point as to how demolishing random houses stops terrorism, preferably without any dubious links or misquotes.

I would suggest not misusing the word 'ironic' while displaying the Stars and Stripes, it reinforces the common stereotype. There also appears to be no evidence that they are Rachel Corrie's 'friends'.

[mp_phonix 0]

report:

Israel starting to launch air-strikes, Tank are starting to move.

{in the israeli news}

[Nemesis6 0]

Now that's ironic coming from a terror apologist, seeing that they, her loony friends, actually organized a memorial breakfast called the Rachel Corrie Memorial Pancake breakfast. This event was organized by "The Rachel Corrie Memorial Committee of Victoria".

Perhaps you could explain how someone who has spent many years combating terrorists on three different continents is a 'terror apologist'. Any evidence would do.

Perhaps you could even debate the point as to how demolishing random houses stops terrorism, preferably without any dubious links or misquotes.

I would suggest not misusing the word 'ironic' while displaying the Stars and Stripes, it reinforces the common stereotype. There also appears to be no evidence that they are Rachel Corrie's 'friends'.

Quote[/b] ]Perhaps you could explain how someone who has spent many years combating terrorists on three different continents is a 'terror apologist'. Any evidence would do.

You excuse Palestinian terror. You say Israel deliberately targets Civilians. You say that Israel has some grand conspiracy to keep the Palestinians from having their own state. You said Israel commits genocide. Sounds pretty much like a typical Al Jazeera, New York Times, BBC, or just a standard Palestinian propagandist. And that's just from looking at your last post.

Quote[/b] ]Perhaps you could even debate the point as to how demolishing random houses stops terrorism, preferably without any dubious links or misquotes.

Demolishing a terrorist's house, or a house that represents danger to soldiers, such as one being used as a base of fire for Jihadi snipers, RPG attacks, and just regular armed Fatah or Hamas terrorists... Or just as a Qassam/RPG/IED/Whatever the death cult can come up with, seems fair to me.

Quote[/b] ]There also appears to be no evidence that they are Rachel Corrie's 'friends'.]

Probably not close friends because she's dead, but self-declared friends nevertheless. And the arrangement was through NaziMedia(IndyMedia), and it contains a link to palsolidarity.org, so don't even try going down that road. Also, the whole "Attendees are encouraged to wear their keffiahs, and to dress in black. No weapons, drugs, or alcohol please." Kind of helps reinforce my point.

[Baphomet 0]

Scary, you truly are the Keith Olbermann to Nemesis' Bill O'Reilly.

[scary 0]

You excuse Palestinian terror.

No I don't. Understanding why they do it isn't the same as excusing it. Until Israel and Israelis try to understand why they do it, it will continue. Criticising Israeli policy doesn't mean agreeing with Palestinian terrorism, some people are too stupid to understand that.

Quote[/b] ]You say Israel deliberately targets Civilians.

If you can provide a quote of me using the phrase 'Israel deliberately targets civilians', 1 bazillion shekels is yours. If you can't, then you are a liar. I will say that Israel disregards Palestinian civilians, considering them expendable, then complains about and wonders why there is terrorism.

Quote[/b] ]You say that Israel has some grand conspiracy to keep the Palestinians from having their own state.

Yes. Can you prove that it doesn't? Can you explain its bizarre strategies for 'stopping' terrorism that do nothing but inflame the situation? Here's a big wake-up call for you, if there is still terrorism, the policies aren't working.

Quote[/b] ]You said Israel commits genocide.

No I didn't. Remedial literacy lessons are in order. Try not to misquote me in future.

Quote[/b] ]Sounds pretty much like a typical Al Jazeera, New York Times, BBC, or just a standard Palestinian propagandist. And that's just from looking at your last post.

Yes, everyone must agree with everything Israel says and does or they're propagandists, terrorist sympathisers, Holocaust deniers, 'anti-semitic' and just plain wrong. By the way, the BBC isn't allowed to take a political stand or show any bias, you may wish to check these things instead of making ill-informed statements.

One of my neighbours is a rather nice Jewish, former concentration camp detainee who left Israel because of its actions in Palestine. He'll be watching the World Cup at my house on Saturday, along with a few other people, two of them Muslim. Shockingly, none of us will try to kill another.

Quote[/b] ]Demolishing a terrorist's house,... snip... seems fair to me.

No need to go any further. I said 'random houses, as in houses that just happens to be near a house used by terrorists and I asked how that is supposed to stop terrorism, not how judicious you find it. At least try to answer the questions asked.

Quote[/b] ]Probably not close friends because she's dead, but self-declared friends nevertheless. And the arrangement was through NaziMedia(IndyMedia), and it contains a link to palsolidarity.org, so don't even try going down that road. Also, the whole "Attendees are encouraged to wear their keffiahs, and to dress in black. No weapons, drugs, or alcohol please." Kind of helps reinforce my point.

You have a point? They don't seem to declare themselves friends at all, there is no use of the word 'friend' on there in relation to Rachel Corrie. I've come to the conclusion they're not friends, they have never met her and you're making it up.

Now, if you would care to stop the ad hominems and put forward a salient, well constructed and informed argument, perhaps using less straw men, I'm sure people would appreciate it.

[Bernadotte 0]

2.  What is you opinion of Lehi and many other Jewish militant organisations who used violence to found the state of Israel?

2 - What my opinion about the Lehi is... To be honest, I'm unsure. They drove drove out the British, which is good, and they revived the Hebrew language. That's my initial idea - They fought the British. But I'm aware they were involved in terrorism.

Are you aware that Lehi offered an alliance with the Nazis in return for transfering Europe's Jews to Palestine?

Lehi and other Jewish terrorist organisations mostly became active in response to the British White Paper of 1939 which explored ways of forcing the country's Jews and Arabs to live together in peace.  Lehi wanted Palestine split along religious and ethnic lines and pursued their goals with acts of violent insurgency that claimed many innocent civilian lives.  ...Sound familiar?

Quote[/b] ]"Neither Jewish morality nor Jewish tradition can negate the use of terror as a means of battle."

-- Lehi underground newspaper, August 1943

The organisation was ultimately disbanded by the founders of Israel and one of its leaders, Yitzhak Shamir, eventually becoming Israel's Prime Minister.  Btw, Shamir's Lehi codename was Michael, after his hero the IRA founder Michael Collins.

Please tell me, Nemesis6, how much of this did you already know and how much are you finding out for the first time? For someone who so quickly accuses others of being apologists for terrorism you spend a great deal of time defending a nation that owes much of its very existence to terrorism.

it's simple : no houses, no tunnels.

It's simple : no people, no terrorists.

So why not just exterminate them all?  Why is your "simple" logic an acceptable argument for destroying property, but not lives.  What gives Israel the right to destroy the one, but not the other.

Btw, in the vast majority of cases where no tunnels were found, has Israel ever compensated any of those 16,000 families for the loss of their homes?  Wouldn't that be part of their obligation under international law as the occupying power?

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]No. Israel destoryed them because all of the tunnels that were digged started from houses so they destroyed houses so that the terrorist won't build from them in the future. it's simple : no houses, no tunnels.

What ? Are you serious ? So you say the IDF approach should be to destroy all houses in palestine as there is a chance that a tiny little number of tunnels "could" be built from them. I seriously have to ask you what planet you´re living on ?

Gulag planet ?

Quote[/b] ]yeah, they are so innocent that they are letting terrorist dig tunnels from their house.

About the last even, I can see that you don;t know what you are talking about, that tunnel was digged from several houses and connected.

Weak in maths ?

90 assumed tunnels, 16000 destroyed houses. Please explain and I really suggest that you and Nemesis and all that hidden genocide supporters and supporters of breaching the geneva conventions and basic international law come up with a reasonable explanation soon, else you will look like the supporters of genocidal moves.

Is Israel really such a low-tech 3rd world country that can´t afford ground radar or other BASIC technology to detect tunnels ? Or is the reason why they destroy such a number of houses a different one ?

Nemesis, in my opinion you are a radical jew, no better than extremists on the other side. You fail to deliver a valid reasoning and in your opinion every palestine is a suicide bomber.

It doesn´t hurt to read a report once in a while. Why don´t you just try once in a while ?

Grow up and move to Israel.

They need extremists like you badly.

You would make an excellent D9 driver.

In fact you could even earn some reputation with your doings then:

Quote[/b] ]Property destruction to facilitate movement of military forces reappeared in the current uprising during the IDF assault on the Jenin refugee camp in April 2002. The IDF used D9 bulldozers to plow paths into the center of the camp after the killing of nine soldiers inside the camp. The IDF also razed most of the Hawashin district. According to an investigation by Human Rights Watch, the IDF completely destroyed 140 buildings in Jenin and rendered two hundred more uninhabitable. More than a quarter of the population became homeless. “While there is no doubt that Palestinian fighters in the Hawashin district had set up obstacles and risks to IDF soldiers,†Human Rights Watch found, “the wholesale leveling of the entire district extended well beyond any conceivable purpose of gaining access to fighters, and was vastly disproportionate to the military objectives pursued.â€

The following month, a D9 bulldozer driver who participated in much of the destruction spoke frankly with an Israeli journalist about his experiences:

For three days, I just destroyed and destroyed. The whole area. Any house that they fired from came down. And to knock it down, I tore down some more. They were warned by loudspeaker to get out of the house before I [would] come, but I gave no one a chance. I didn’t wait. I didn’t give one blow, and [then] wait for them to come out. I would just ram the house with full power, to bring it down as fast as possible. I wanted to get to the other houses. To get as many as possible. Others may have restrained themselves, or so they say. Who are they kidding? Anyone who was there, and saw our soldiers in the houses, would understand they were in a death trap. I thought about saving them. I didn’t give a damn about the Palestinians, but I didn’t just ruin with no reason. It was all under orders.

Many people where inside houses we started to demolish. They would come out of the houses we where working on. I didn’t see, with my own eyes, people dying under the blade of the D9 and I didn’t see house falling down on live people. But if there were any, I wouldn’t care at all. I am sure people died inside these houses, but it was difficult to see, there was lots of dust everywhere, and we worked a lot at night. I found joy with every house that came down, because I knew they didn’t mind dying, but they cared for their homes. If you knocked down a house, you buried 40 or 50 people for generations. If I am sorry for anything, it is for not tearing the whole camp down.

… As far as I am concerned, I left them with a football stadium, so they can play. This was our gift to the camp. Better than killing them. They will sit quietly. Jenin will not return to what it use[d] to be.

After publication of the article in the newspaper Yediot Ahronoth, the IDF gave Nissim a citation for outstanding service.

Quote[/b] ]has Israel ever compensated any of those 16,000 families for the loss of their homes?

No, they are generous and leave it to the UN and NGO´s to finance the rebuilding of houses and infrastructure destroyed by tunnel-destroying IDF.

[Jinef 2]

I find this quite funny, an Israeli demolition vehicle operator chatting about his lack of regard for human life while under the magical "It was all under orders." theme tune.

Now quite honestly, i'm sure if you interviewed a guard at a WW2 Nazi concentration camp he would also be innocent and blameless right?

Avon Lady in all her wisdom has already declared me anti semetic so I might as well play along with this little theory:

The holocaust is constantly used to gain the morale high ground for the Jewish people, if they or their supporters are ever contradicted in debate or reasoning it is highly likely they will pull out their trump card.

If you look at other populations who suffered under genocide, such as the Chinese, Poles etc They tend to be quite grumpy with the offending party granted, yet they don't seem to constantly lord it over their opposition as soon as they get cornered.

Maybe it is because of this fairly remedial mindset that people have responded with an equally remedial mindset, that of total denial it even existed, thus levelling out the playing field.

Maybe the Jews should realise that they were one of many populations in history who have been the target of genocide and instead of dwelling on it and constantly bringing it up to gain leverage they should accept it as history and continue their debate based on current events.

There is truly no desire for peace in the Israeli mindset, or the Arab one. There is a desire for victory.