The Middle East part 2

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

Why can't you guys have a friendly discussion?

Please, its getting a bit tiresom having to pass half the replies because they are dirrectly offensive posts aimed at individual forumusers...

[Bernadotte 0]

...it's never a good idea to compare the actions of a terrorist organisation like Hizbullah with those of a nation like Israel.

I wasn't trying to compare them...

Ok, then if you are not comparing the actions of Hizbullah with Israel in the following post who are you comparing them with?

Does Hizbullah apologize for intentionally blowing up a cafe full of civilians?  They do it so much they must of been fed up with apologizing for it a long time ago.

Why don't some people care when Hizbullah targets civilians, but they throw a fit when Israel accidentally kills/injures civilians while trying to attack Hizbullah?

Why? Because I compare Israel with other civilised nations and will "throw a fit" no matter which civilised nation accidentally kills/injures civilians over and over and over and over again.

[FSPilot 0]

Ok, then if you are not comparing the actions of Hizbullah with Israel in the following post who are you comparing them with?

Picking a fight?  Maybe I should say what I already said one more time.  Want it in bigger letters?  This isn't even important, I can't believe I'm arguing with you about this.

I wasn't comparing them with anybody, never said I was.  I was saying what they did was irresponsible and morally wrong.  It was, no matter who you compare it to.

Why?  Because I compare Israel with other civilised nations and will "throw a fit" no matter which civilised nation accidentally kills/injures civilians over and over and over and over again.

So why do you look the other way when Hizbullah intentionally targets civilians?  You obviously find it as offensive as most normal people do when there are civilian casualties in an armed conflict, at least when certain countrys do it anyway.  Double standard maybe?

[Bernadotte 0]

So why do you look the other way when Hizbullah intentionally targets civilians?

Look the other way?  

Perhaps it was you who were looking the other way when I posted this a bit earlier:

... On this occasion Hizbullah had been attacking an IDF patrol in S. Lebanon, but on any other day they might have been dropping rockets and mortars on civilian populations in N. Israel.

So, is that your point, FSPilot?  Terrorism is bad?  Terrorists are bad?  Nobody around here has claimed otherwise and nobody is looking the other way.  But there's really not much use in repeating something we all seem to agree on over and over again when there's plenty of disagreement on other points.

For instance regarding civilian casualties, Israel's Prime Minister has just stated:

Quote[/b] ]"It is against our policy and I am very, very sorry"

However, Avon has just stated:

...we're fed up with apologizing.

It seems to me that Avon even disagrees with her own Prime Minister about the need to apologise for civilian casualties.  So perhaps we should save most of our anti-terrorism arguments for when a representative of Hizbullah decides to start posting here and instead focus on convincing Avon to care about Palestinian civilian casualties as much as her Prime Minister does.

[FSPilot 0]

Look the other way?  

Perhaps it was you who were looking the other way when I posted this a bit earlier...

I don't think you understand what I'm saying.  You're criticising Israel for accidentally killing/wounding civilians.  Yet when Hizbullah does it on purpose you don't criticise them at all.  Yeah, you mentioned it, and that's just about it.  You're looking the other way.  You didn't scold them for it, you didn't even mention that you disagreed with their policy of doing that.  All you did was mention that it happened.  That's what I call looking the other way.  On an internet forum criticising is just about all we can do about it, and you're not even willing to do that.

So, is that your point, FSPilot?  Terrorism is bad?  Terrorists are bad?  Nobody around here has claimed otherwise and nobody is looking the other way.  But there's really not much use in repeating something we all seem to agree on over and over again when there's plenty of disagreement on other points.

Yep, that's my point.  Terrorism is bad, as are terrorists.  And when they attack innocent civilians I think something should be done about it.  Since we're on an internet forum, there's not much we can do about it other than post how awful it is that people would do such a thing.  You, on the other hand, apparently think simply mentioning that it happened is enough.

It seems to me that Avon even disagrees with her own Prime Minister about the need to apologise for civilian casualties.  So perhaps we should save most of our anti-terrorism arguments for when a representative of Hizbullah decides to start posting here and instead focus on convincing Avon to care about Palestinian civilian casualties as much as her Prime Minister does.

We should probably just shut up about every topic on here until the people that we're talking about show up on the operation flashpoint offtopic forums, eh?

How about this: you sit tight and wait for someone from Hizbullah to show up before you make another post on the subject.  I'll let you know if I see them.

[Bernadotte 0]

How about this: you sit tight and wait for someone from Hizbullah to show up before you make another post on the subject.  I'll let you know if I see them.

How about you stop flamebaiting, pal?  Perhaps you should try discussing what people here are posting instead of taking issue with what (you claim) they are not saying.

I've made my views on terrorism clear plenty of times in this and other threads.  Go find them!

[xawery 0]

Look the other way?

Perhaps it was you who were looking the other way when I posted this a bit earlier...

I don't think you understand what I'm saying. You're criticising Israel for accidentally killing/wounding civilians. Yet when Hizbullah does it on purpose you don't criticise them at all. Yeah, you mentioned it, and that's just about it. You're looking the other way. You didn't scold them for it, you didn't even mention that you disagreed with their policy of doing that. All you did was mention that it happened. That's what I call looking the other way. On an internet forum criticising is just about all we can do about it, and you're not even willing to do that.

FSPilot, I don't think you will find anyone on this forum who condones the actions of terrorists. So don't be surprised that people do not write lengthy posts about how despicable the terrorists are. It's pretty much self-explanatory!

Terrorists are desperate lunatics, and the insanity of their actions is apparent. However, when a civilised, democratic country decides decides to employ methods which they know will result in civilian casualties, THAT'S when one should raise one's eyebrow.

What's the point of firing missiles at targets surrounded by civilians if

a) it is not going to deter any other terrorists;

b) it's going to damage Isreal's reputation?

Such retaliations are simply counter-productive. Killing civilians, as unintentional as it may be, will only push more moderate palestinians into the arms of extremists.

[theavonlady 2]

Such retaliations are simply counter-productive. Killing civilians, as unintentional as it may be, will only push more moderate palestinians into the arms of extremists.

Sure! Just let them shoot all they want from behind civilian cover.

After a while, they'll get bored and stop.

You really have the terrorist mind psychie down pat!

Thanks for all you help. I'll pass your advice to my country's top brass. They haven't a clue. Maybe they'll sign you on. I'm sure there's an armchair available here somewhere.

[mp_phonix 0]

Avonlady

You can be a little less cynical you know . . .

About civilian casulties it is unfortante but we can't just sit back and watch them shooting rockets on our country ! {talking about the phalastinians}.

[theavonlady 2]

You can be a little less cynical you know . . .

So can the rest of the world.

Here's IAF chief Shakedi's take on this issue yesterday:

Quote[/b] ]Air Force Chief: Terrorists Work Out of Densely-Populated Areas

19:27 Jun 22, '06 / 26 Sivan 5766

by Hillel Fendel

Palestinian terrorists operate in densely-populated urban areas to make it harder for the IDF to strike at them - but Israel will keep striking out at them, says IAF Chief Maj.-Gen. Shakedi.  

"The terrorists understand that our operations against them are chiefly from the air," Shakedi told Army Radio after last night's miss that killed three civilians, "and they change their way of working accordingly. They are inside the cities, in yards, crowding themselves inward. The amount of time that they are outside is very little."

Twelve Arabs not known to have been involved with terrorism were killed in Israeli air strikes of the past few days. "We make every effort to prevent striking innocents," Shakedi said, repeating what Israeli leaders have been saying over the past several days, "but in the current situation, the IDF essentially does not have an efficient alternative other than air strikes. The only other possibility, in principle, is a comprehensive ground option, which we are trying to avoid if possible."

The most recent victims of Israel's war against terrorism were a brother and sister, and 12 people were injured. The missile missed its target - a jeep carrying terrorists in a sparsely-populated area - and hit a nearby house instead. IDF Chief of Staff Lt.-Gen. Dan Halutz ordered an internal army investigation in light of the high number of recent casualties.

The target of the attack was Imad Abu Hamad, head of the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades organization in the Gaza Strip, who was only injured by the missile. Abu Hamad, 36, directed terror attacks against Israel, the IDF reported, and was deeply involved in the funding and establishing of Al Aqsa's launching capabilities.

Abu Hamad began his activity against Israel in the early 90s. In mid-2004, he established himself as a central contact between Hizbullah in Lebanon and the Al Aqsa infrastructure in the field, pursuing and directing various terror activities. He attempted to kidnap Israeli civilians and gathered intelligence on the locations of Israeli forces and civilians for future attacks. Just two months ago, on Passover eve, Abu Hamad was responsible for dispatching two armed terrorists to carry out an attack inside an IDF base just outside Gaza; they were killed in the attempt. He is known to have smuggled large amounts of weaponry into the Gaza Strip, was recently involved in an attempt to carry out a large-scale terror attack at the Karni crossing, and worked to smuggle suicide bombers into Israel through Sinai.

"We are acting with very great caution," Shakedi said. "I have instituted greater stringencies regarding the hitting of those who are not involved, and at this time we must make a very great effort to try everything so that those who are not involved are not hit."

The IDF announced, once again, its determination "to continue its battle against the terror organizations. The responsibility for the continued rocket fire from the Gaza Strip lies with the leadership of the Palestinian Authority."

And now, Yuval Steinitz says the obvious:

Quote[/b] ]Steinitz calls for ground invasion of Gaza Strip

By JPOST.COM STAFF

Yuval Steinitz, former chairman of the parliamentary foreign affairs and defense committee called on Friday for IDF troops to mount a ground offensive into the Gaza Strip after Palestinian terrorists fired a fresh round of Kassam rockets at nearby Israeli targets Friday morning.

(full article text available for registered JPost readers. Registration is free).

[xawery 0]

Such retaliations are simply counter-productive. Killing civilians, as unintentional as it may be, will only push more moderate palestinians into the arms of extremists.

Sure! Just let them shoot all they want from behind civilian cover.

After a while, they'll get bored and stop.

You really have the terrorist mind psychie down pat!

Thanks for all you help. I'll pass your advice to my country's top brass. They haven't a clue. Maybe they'll sign you on. I'm sure there's an armchair available here somewhere.

Aah, yes, the infamous 'armchair' argument. If someone's reasoning doesn't stroke with your own views, dismiss it as ignorant.

For the sake of the discussion, I will ignore the form of your supposedly witty reply and concentrate on the substance.

Do you REALLY believe that systematically killing/wounding terrorists as well as civilians helps quell the violence against Israel? Can't you see the hysterical masses vowing revenge after another airstrike resulted in civilian casualties? For every terrorist that you kill, three others are born. Devastated brothers, sisters, fathers who may not have been extremist up to that point.

Please, prove me wrong. Show me that Isreali retaliatory actions are inversly correlated to Palestinian terrorist attacks.

Oh, and for the record: I am not saying that doing nothing is the only alternative. Israel has every right to eliminate terrorists. I just don't think that firing missiles into a crowd is the best way to do it.

[mp_phonix 0]

Well . . actually . .

Only after we started hitting them hard the sucide bombins rate droped, after operation "Homat magen". {that the press called it "Ramallah masecure, which of course never accurd.}

The air-strikes are usefull, but sometimes miss. we got Yasin & Rantisi {Run Tisi, Run !}that way.

[theavonlady 2]

Aah, yes, the infamous 'armchair' argument. If someone's reasoning doesn't stroke with your own views, dismiss it as ignorant.

No. The 'armchair' comment was the least relevant of my comments on your suggestion. I dismissed your arguments beforehand.

And, besides, if no one here should be shooting, all that's needed by the military are a few armchairs.

Quote[/b] ]

For the sake of the discussion, I will ignore the form of your supposedly witty reply and concentrate on the substance.

Do you REALLY believe that systematically killing/wounding terrorists as well as civilians helps quell the violence against Israel?

Civilians? No. Who wants civilians killed? But that's the price of war.

Fact of the matter is that since Israel went on their major offenses after the Park Hotel Passover massacre (oh, I forgot, there are no massacres in Israel), as well as constructing the security fence, the amount of successful terrorist attacks has been reduced immensly compared to beforehand and the amount of killed and captured terrorists, including leading figures, has increased drastically.

So you were saying?

Quote[/b] ]Can't you see the hysterical masses vowing revenge after another airstrike resulted in civilian casualties? For every terrorist that you kill, three others are born.

Then we'll kill three more. And if it takes 2 missiles instead of 1, then so be it. And if it means that more civilians will die as the enemy continues to use them as cover and cannon fodder, then you have my pity but, again, not my apology.

At some point, Israel has to make the response severe enough that the enemy will begin thinking that maybe they've reached the point where they come to realize that things are not working out for them. And if they never reach that conclusion, they only have themselves to blame. Too bad.

Quote[/b] ]Devastated brothers, sisters, fathers who may not have been extremist up to that point.

Have you taken a poll? The hate being preached now on pal airwaves is no different in quantity and intensity than it was a decade ago.

Quote[/b] ]Please, prove me wrong. Show me that Isreali retaliatory actions are inversly correlated to Palestinian terrorist attacks.

Done.

Quote[/b] ]Oh, and for the record: I am not saying that doing nothing is the only alternative. Israel has every right to eliminate terrorists. I just don't think that firing missiles into a crowd is the best way to do it.

The best way may be with an even more massive bombardment to make sure that the targets aren't missed.

Alternatively and with much greater risk to Israeli troops, we could invade and permanently annex the northern part of Gaza, so that Israel's towns will be out of harm's way.

Until the longer range Katyushas and Iranian supplied missiles are fired by the Pals..................

Stay tuned!

Sorry for being bitter but the idea of talking to them nicely was a failure from day 1 and the idea of not killing them when they shoot at us is absolutely daft.

In all sincerity, have a nice weekend.

[Badgerboy 0]

Good to see Avon is still babbling on with her extreme right wing views.

Avon, your a racist, although you thinly try to conceal it whenever the issue is raised. I had made a long and pertinent reply in regards to this, but it would have diluted the point.

Your attitude sickens me, and degenerates all of your countrypeople. I can only hope someone like you never gets into power, or ironically we would be looking at another holocaust.

Still, can't make an omelette..... eh?

[mp_phonix 0]

that wasn't so nice of you

[Thunderbird 0]

The best way may be with an even more massive bombardment to make sure that the targets aren't missed.

Alternatively and with much greater risk to Israeli troops, we could invade and permanently annex the northern part of Gaza, so that Israel's towns will be out of harm's way.

Until the longer range Katyushas and Iranian supplied missiles are fired by the Pals..................

Stay tuned!

Sorry for being bitter but the idea of talking to them nicely was a failure from day 1 and the idea of not killing them when they shoot at us is absolutely daft.

In all sincerity, have a nice weekend.

Huge lack of credibility.

...

Why so much of hatred?

Fortunately, you don't represent the israeli mentality and the jew culture at all.

Regards

Thunderbird84

[theavonlady 2]

Avon, your a racist

This is a lie.

Quote[/b] ]Still, can't make an omelette..... eh?

This is a lie, too.

Batting a thousand today, ay, Badgerboy?

Huge lack of credibility.

More intelligent slurs.

Quote[/b] ]Why so much of hatred?

Must be the hot weather. Yes, that always does it. The weather. That's the answer. Really. Sure.

Quote[/b] ]Fortunately, you don't represent the israeli mentality and the jew culture at all.

If you say so.

Let me return the compliment and tell you that you don't represent the Muslim mentality and the Islamic culture at all.

Believe it or not, that turned out to be a compliment. Maybe I should take it back.

that wasn't so nice of you

Now don't you fret about lil' ol' me!

Shabbat Shalom!

[miles teg 1]

AL, please tell me how many Islamic countries have you travelled to and lived in?

Please tell me how you know so much about who represents Muslims?  Let me guess, your Hamas neighbors0 trying to kill ya?   The Jerusalam Post?  The Wahhabist propaganda rags in Egypt?  

I've lived in and travelled through several Islamic countries in my life (Saudi Arabia, Iran, Bahrain, Egypt, and Indonesia) and study Islamic theology from the perspective of traditional scholars of the 4 Sunni Madhaabs, the Shi'a views, as well as radical and extremist interpretations of Islam.   Believe it or not, Thunderbird does represent most typical Muslims, especially those living in Western countries from my experiences.   It is true, they have no love of Israel and politicians in Islamic countries love to use Israel as a scapegoat for everything.  There are plenty of valid critiques.

However your genocidal views of the "Palestinian Solution" are exactly why so many Arabs have nothing but disgust for Israel.  

Yes I know you'll trot out your Qu'ran verses.  You've done that many times before and both myself and Acecombat took the time to answer each and every one of your criticims...what did you do?  Ignore us and continue to repeat the same verses over and over to justify your hate inspired rationale of why the evil Muslims hate poor innocent Israel.

As nation that loves to remind the world about the Nazi hollocaust, such genocidal remarks by you and Israelies like yourself are truly hypocritical and empty.  Israel will never get wiped out through conventional warfare at least.  All Israel's policies do now is encourage Islamic extremists like some of those in power in Iran, to develop nuclear weapons with the sole purpose of sacrificing their nation to destroy Israel.  All because both Israeli and Palestinian extremists in leadership positions are too stubborn and proud to establish a fair peace settlement.  

Fortunately not all Israelies are like you as Thunderbird said.  I know many Israelies who are wonderful people and who have dedicated their lives towards peace in the region and between Jews and Muslims.   Sadly however, the media ignores them and concentrates on the loudest and most hate filled comments from both the Israeli side and the Islamic world.

I understand why you hate Al.  I just pray that one day you understand this also and realize that killing and violence will never resolve the situation your nation is in just as much as Arab violence towards Israelies will never solve this issue.

Instead extremists in your government and in the Palestinian leadership and militant groups continue to suck both the West and the Islamic world into a horrific genocidal war.

I don't expect Jesus to come either when that happens....just alot of mushroom clouds....maybe some of the clouds might be in the shape of Jesus?  

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[mp_phonix 0]

TB is a muslim ?      

also

As far as I know theres nothing written in the Koran {muslim bible kind of} that say to kill infidals or something . .The terror organizations are just making it up.

Civillian casualties is very unfortantue thing and believe me I'm not happy when I hear about it :\

As an israeli, and i'm also speaking for myslef, I don't hate Arabs/Muslims/Phalastinians etc. Actually it will be preety nice if I could meet some of them. I just hate terrorists !

[Nemesis6 0]

As far as I know theres nothing written in the Koran that say to kill infidals or something . .The terror organizations are just making it up.

Sorry, but there is. The Koran is riddled with it. Jihad fi sabil Allah,

Quote[/b] ]The Hour [Resurrection] will not take place until the Muslims fight the Jews, and kill them. And the Jews will hide behind the rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: 'O Muslim, O servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!

, all that good stuff.

Anyway, Thunderbird, you think Israel should leave the terrorists alone?

By the way: A majority of the Palestinians, for example, are extremists. This is a statistical fact.

[quicksand 0]

Quote[/b] ]By the way: A majority of the Palestinians, for example, are extremists. This is a statistical fact.

[deep breath]

Care to point to us ignorant masses to your non partizan source for this statistical fact or it is just spewing hatred time over where you live in.

[deanosbeano 0]

Quote[/b] ]By the way: A majority of the Palestinians, for example, are extremists. This is a statistical fact.

What kind of a statement is that, your tryimg to desensitize , the killing of innocent civillians now ?

jesus man just let it lie, your at war , innocents get killed, they should no more be rocketing you than yo should have to retaliate and kill innocents. say it what it is and stop all this propoganda and lies and misquotes,(can offerevidence if required).all this talk of the terrorist the terrorists. ok its wrong its abhorrent, we can all see it, but your insessant, flaiming and misquoting ,serves no purpose.everyone has patriotism and thats nothing to be scourned at, but when you stretch the truth to,incite hate ,what have you become ?

and as a foot note , all this talk of terroist led me to wiki and it would seem terroism has played apart on both side of the devide. so pls stop this rubbish hate hat hate. and debate the truthful facts.

Quote[/b] ]Bernadotte was assassinated on September 17, 1948 by members of the Zionist terrorist group Lehi, sometimes known as the Stern Gang. The assassination was approved by the three-man Lehi 'center': Yitzhak Shamir, Natan Yellin-Mor and Yisrael Eldad, and planned by the Lehi operations chief in Jerusalem, Yehoshua Zetler. A four-man team lead by Meshulam Markover ambushed Bernadotte's motorcade in downtown Jerusalem and team member Yehoshua Cohen fired into Bernadotte's car. Bernadotte and his aide, UN observer Colonel André Serot were killed. The following day the United Nations Security Council condemned the killing of Bernadotte as "a cowardly act which appears to have been committed by a criminal group of terrorists in Jerusalem while the United Nations representative was fulfilling his peace-seeking mission in the Holy Land".[1]

Lehi took public credit for the murders in the name of a previously unknown group, but Lehi's role was never in doubt. Lehi was forcibly disarmed and many members were arrested, but nobody was ever charged with the murders. Yellin-Mor and another Lehi member Schmuelevich were charged with belonging to a terrorist organization. They were found guilty but immediately released and pardoned (Yellin-Mor had meanwhile been elected to the first Knesset). Years later, Cohen's role was uncovered by David Ben-Gurion's biographer Michael Bar Zohar while Cohen was working for Ben-Gurion as a security guard. The first public admission of Lehi's role in the murder was made in 1977 (Yediot Aharonot, Feb 28).

from wiki.

here

Quote[/b] ]The conflict between Lehi and mainstream Jewish and subsequently Israeli organizations came to an end when Lehi was formally dissolved and integrated into the Israeli Defense Forces on May 31, 1948, its leaders getting amnesty from prosecution or reprisals as part of the integration.

Quote[/b] ]In 1999, the Magshimey Herut movement was founded as an educational Zionist organization for young adults. Although officially a movement alligned with the ideology of Zev Jabotinsky and Revisionist Zionism, it has been argued that the movement is actually closer to Lehi in philosophy. Much of Magshimey Herut's written and educational material seem directly influenced by the teachings of Avraham Stern, Uri Zvi Greenberg and Israel Eldad.

anybody can quote ,its easy to paint a picture using quotes, what really needs to be said ,is, its sad that innocent people die as a result of conflict. apologies this is all one sided, but i wanted to make a point that ,people quote and try to draw a conclusion, whisch serves no purpose, other than to prove einstiens theory, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

[Nemesis6 0]

I was thinking about showing you one I saw that showed that 60% of all Palestinians support terrorism, but then I saw this report - 87% of all Palestinians support terrorism. And this is from Palestine-info.com, so don't you dare pull the "it's from a extremist Zionist site" crap on me here.

[Bernadotte 0]

Avon, your a racist

This is a lie.

Of course.  What racist will ever admit to being a racist.

So, let's start with a little background:

I am very right wing. The left would use the word "extreme", which I use to describe their being out of touch with reality.

Not just a right wing extremist, but one who is quite comfortable posting harmful generalisations about an entire ethnic group, such as:

I believe it is correct to say that the Arabs, in general, have been trying and hoping for Israel's destruction for over 50 years.

Nothing racist about it. Just the facts.

But regarding your anti-Arab racism, here's where I entirely stopped giving you the benefit of the doubt:

And speaking of your anti-Arab racism, I'll answer the question that you've ignored 3 times.

The biggest irony is that Mr. Hurndall what shot by an Arab. That's right. The IDF solider who is accused of shooting him is an Israeli Bedouin soldier.

why do you regard that as a great irony?  

The irony for you is rooted in your anti-Arab racism.  For you, all Arabs are the same.  In your eyes, this was merely some Arab shooting someone who was trying to help Arabs.  It matters little to you that the murderer was an IDF soldier or an Israeli.  He was not a Jew and, therefore, he doesn't matter to you.

And the main reason you ignored my question 3 times is that you think there is absolutely nothing wrong with your form of racism.  ...But you know better than to defend your personal bigotry in this forum.

Your turn.

You've never responded.

[quicksand 0]

I was thinking about showing you one I saw that showed that 60% of all Palestinians support terrorism, but then I saw this report - 87% of all Palestinians support terrorism. And this is from Palestine-info.com, so don't you dare pull the "it's from a extremist Zionist site" crap on me here.

So disregarding completly the "poll" from the university that focuses on learning how to attack Israelis with missles and re-enactments of famous suicide attacks that sampled a whooping 300 people.With such note worthy credentials and educated estimate would put the margin of error somewhere between 40%-50% line.Thus I must inquire again:

Quote[/b] ]Care to point to us ignorant masses to your NON PARTIZAN source for this statistical fact or it is just spewing hatred time over where you live in.