The Middle East part 2

[Badgerboy 0]

Quote[/b] ]I'm normally quite reserved, but in this situation its apparant that stronger wording is required. I mean no offence to you, but your government can fucking rot for all I care.

NO champion of 'freedom and justice' could allow this to happen. It's just fucked up politics, and weasly little fuckwits who buy themselves into power. When the rest of the world condems these actions, the US government just coughs, and says 'play nicely'.

If that is the case then please sent in the mail a check with the payment of more than thousand billion dollars for all the various aid sent around the world. You might want to call the West Bank and the Gaza Strip for some money to help pay. That will probably fix the debt.

Quote[/b] ]

Actually, I can understand his sentiments on this issue. The palestinians are fucked as long as US doesn't consider another and substantially more neutral stance in this conflict. Basically, US - especially under the Bush regime with it's discriminal support to Israels stealing of land!

You talking about what Bush did early in his adminstration.

Won't wash buddy. If you claim to be the good guys, you have to act like it. By effectively sanctioning Israels actions, you are condoning ethnic cleansing.

As for the cash, I'm sure the Palestinians love the emergency aid they recieve. They wouldn't need it if Israeli's didn't recieve BILLIONS in arms every year! What do you get back out of the deal? A shitload of bad PR.

Don't you feel a bit pissed off that your tax money is being given away, when there is so much that needs doing in the US anyway? If they tried doing that here we would revolt!

Aid is great, and a noble thing. I respect the US for that

Arming people to kill others is morally wrong. Too many Governments do it.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Arming people to kill others is morally wrong. Too many Governments do it.

I wonder were do the pals get their stuff from.........

[brgnorway 0]

Quote[/b] ]You talking about what Bush did early in his adminstration.

That too, but even more so the latest developments where Bushywushy states that Sharons plan of withdrawal from some of the occupied land is a splendid idea. You tell me when US got to decide what was right and wrong in this conflict - and at the same time abolish all international law!

Quote[/b] ]If that is the case then please sent in the mail a check with the payment of more than thousand billion dollars for all the various aid sent around the world. You might want to call the West Bank and the Gaza Strip for some money to help pay. That will probably fix the debt.

LOL . A large proportion of your "foreign aid" is "aid" sent to Israel - financing thier military and their military operations.

Secondly, You give peanuts per capita compared to other nations - especially european nations.

Thirdly, your aid ending up somewhere around the world has a tendency to be protected by heavily armed USMC - which has seriously hampered aid work. This has been reported by various aid agencies as a dangerous move because relief caravans have been made into targets instead of letting the locals distribute the resources.

Fourth point is that the economy in the occupied territories are shattered because of cerfew and israeli roadblocks effectively killing economic activity.

The PA infastructure have been reduced to rubble by IDF - infastructure raised with the money from european nations - of which a considerably amount came from the norwegian government.

[Bernadotte 0]

If that is the case then please sent in the mail a check with the payment of more than thousand billion dollars for all the various aid sent around the world.

Around the world?  LOL

About 40% of America's annual foreign aid budget is earmarked for Israel.  About half of the remainder goes to Egypt because of a condition in their 1978 Camp David peace agreement with Israel.  In other words, 2 out of every 3 of your gazillion foreign aid dollars is directed towards the wellbeing of Israel.

How can that be, you ask?

Posted this week on the www-page of the largest pro-Israel lobby in Washington:

Quote[/b] ]President Bush, speaking to a crowd of about 4,000 Tuesday at AIPAC's annual Policy Conference, expressed strong support for the U.S.-Israel relationship and reaffirmed Israel's right to self-defense. "Our nation is stronger and safer because we have a true and dependable ally in Israel… A free, prosperous and secure Israel is in this nation's national interest," Bush proclaimed. He continued: "The United States is strongly committed, and I am strongly committed, to the security of Israel as a vibrant Jewish state. Israel is a democracy and a friend, and has every right to defend itself from terror."

[denoir 0]

If that is the case then please sent in the mail a check with the payment of more than thousand billion dollars for all the various aid sent around the world.

US foreign is a bit of a more complicated issue because it is directed and conditional. As people have mentioned here a lot of it goes to buying new Israeli tanks. Also some serious and questionable restrictions are in place, like no HIV aid to hospitals in Africa that give information on abortion.

And while the US is in absolute numbers a big contributor to humanitarian aid it is lagging very much behind the EU (both in absolute numbers as well as per capita) and Japan (per capita).

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Someone today on TV said. "The children that you see leaving their destroyed houses, dragging their suitcases through the dusty roads, those are the terorists of tomorrow!"

Nothing new, but definetly hitting it on the spot!

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]LOL . A large proportion of your "foreign aid" is "aid" sent to Israel - financing thier military and their military operations.

Secondly, You give peanuts per capita compared to other nations - especially european nations.

Thirdly, your aid ending up somewhere around the world has a tendency to be protected by heavily armed USMC - which has seriously hampered aid work. This has been reported by various aid agencies as a dangerous move because relief caravans have been made into targets instead of letting the locals distribute the resources.

Fourth point is that the economy in the occupied territories are shattered because of cerfew and israeli roadblocks effectively killing economic activity.

The PA infastructure have been reduced to rubble by IDF - infastructure raised with the money from european nations - of which a considerably amount came from the norwegian government.

Billybob's Official truth about this whole thing:

I really do not give a fuck about how much aid being sent to Israel nor to the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Some of actions to the pals by the Israeli govt./mili. were wrong. Also, the actions of the pals are wrong. The extreme people on both side (Hamas, and thier terrorists bros; far-righters in Israel and others) need to shut the fuck up. People need to stop making the comment that all the pals are just innocent (majority are) and they defensless. BS. They allow family members to become suicide bombers and kill innocent israeli citizens. Those dumbasses are so stupid because thier actions are doing the real damage to their people. Also, they fuck themselves up by getting kicking out of Jordan. Some of the actions by Israeli govt./mili. are just wrong, too.

This Israel-pals. crap will probably not end unless all sides come to agreement. That is probably impossible because some extremist on either side will probably fuck it up.

[Bernadotte 0]

...

People need to stop making the comment that all the pals are just innocent (majority are) and they defensless.

...

People?  Who has said that?  

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]People? Who has said that?

People that I talk to outside the forums. IRL

That was my rant!!!!!!!!!!!!

[bonko the sane 2]

UN special human rights envoy in the Palestinian territories, John Dugard, as saying that the strikes were "war crimes" and amounted to collective punishment violating humanitarian and international human rights law.

The Israeli military said it was too early to say exactly what had happened, although it suggested that explosives laid by Palestinians could have been responsible.

Army spokeswoman Brigadier General Ruth Yaron said that Israeli forces had fired warning shots after seeing "armed men in the midst of the demonstration".

"Tank shells were fired at [an abandoned] structure, at no point in the direction of the demonstrators," she said, although she admitted that it was possible that there may have been "casualties as a result of the tank shells".

Bloody fascists, no wonder anti zionism is on a steep climb in europe, if the israelis accept their own genocidal government actions they deserve to be shunned and quarantined from the human race, same to those that support such actions.

And personaly i dont trust a religion who says they are the "chosen" ,that smells too much of totalitarian faciszoid talk to me.

Violence breeds violence, unfortunately, as those inocent palestians died so will inocent israelis die, and this will repeat itself on and on until one people is exterminated or forced into an exodus

*thinks of israely plans of palestinian mass deportation in trains*

ironic isnt it?

[Bernadotte 0]

I really do not give a fuck about how much aid being sent to Israel ...

Most Americans don't.  And that's a big part of the problem.

[brgnorway 0]

I really do not give a fuck about how much aid being sent to Israel ...

Most Americans don't.  And that's a big part of the problem.  

Yes, it certainly is! The problem is twofold: firstly because US citizens fail to grasp the complexity of the conflict and thus they also fail to understand why they indirectly are so hated in the middle east.

Secondly, US do take part in the conflict by financial aid, military aid, military training in US, and in most ways also political support! Now, according to my simple logic and intellectual capacity that imply hypocracy when US put sanctions on Syria for "harbouring" Hizbohlla or whatever they are called!

[denoir 0]

Here's something new

 Israel rebuked over Gaza killings [bBC]

Quote[/b] ]The United Nations Security Council has adopted a resolution criticising Israel's killing of civilians and demolition of homes in the Gaza Strip.

The 14-0 vote came after at least 10 Palestinians were killed when Israeli troops opened fire on protesters in Rafah refugee camp.

The US - which normally vetoes anti-Israel resolutions - abstained.

In a further rebuke, US Secretary of State Colin Powell said Israel's actions were harming peace efforts.

....

[bucket man 2]

What the hell? US didnt use its veto in favor of Israel?

I bet that soon giant man-eating guinea pigs start raining from the sky!

[billybob2002 0]

I'm waiting for all the facts to come out for this "incident". Could be true or another "Jenin massacre fiasco".

[Bernadotte 0]

I'm waiting for all the facts to come out for this "incident".  Could be true or another "Jenin massacre fiasco".

Waiting for all the facts before doing what - believing that it truly happened?  Israeli government regrets aren't enough for you?  

And the IDF aren't exactly keeping ambulances, journalists and the UN away from the scene for the better part of a week as they did in Jenin.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Waiting for all the facts before doing what - believing that it truly happened?  Israeli government regrets aren't enough for you?  

And the IDF aren't exactly keeping ambulances, journalists and the UN away from the scene for the better part of a week as they did in Jenin.

1. So I can get a "complete" story and not jump.

2. The death of those pals was horrible. The death of that Israeli woman and her 4 or so kids too. Hell all the innocent people killed by both sides.

3. I called it "Jenin massacre fiasco" because of all the lies/misleading by both sides (i.e. "100s" of innocent pals that supposedly died).

4. Must Sleep! It is 2:37 AM............  

[Bernadotte 0]

2. The death of those pals was horrible. The death of that Israeli woman and her 4 or so kids too.

Did your American tax dollars pay for the weapons and ammo that killed her too?  

[SpongeBob 0]

2. The death of those pals was horrible. The death of that Israeli woman and her 4 or so kids too.

Did your American tax dollars pay for the weapons and ammo that killed her too?  

That money probably came from Canada.

[dutchsoldier 0]

I think there's no sulution for this problem untill western country's have the guts to really try to stop the problem instead of always supporting the isrealli's. In my opinion is America the cause of this problem with the moslim extremists.

Evry one would bomb the twin towers when your mother, sister father was killed or even raped by american soldiers. im afraid this will never stop untill america stops with trying to solve the problem cause they cant as long as Bush is the president of the United States.

[Longinius 1]

Watching a documentary right now on Swedish TV about the various checkpoints in and around Israel. A guy is just walking around with a camera, filming and interviewing border police and people crossing.

Now, with the way some of those border police guys are acting I understand why there is hatred.

At one of the check points the soldiers stopped every good looking woman multiple times, so the individual soldiers could try their best pick up lines.

At another check point, an Israeli arab was allowed to drive through with his truck. Before passing, he asked if he would be allowed to drive back again since he was only doing a delivery. The soldier said he would. One hour later he is back, and the soldier refuses to let him pass. He is now unable to return home. When asking to talk to an officer in charge, he is told that cant be done. As luck has it, the officer happens to come by, clears it and the guy can go home after a good while of shouting, pleading and begging.

Out of all the soldiers portrayed, not many seemed at all respectful towards the people they met. With attitudes like that, its not strange that there is a war. Very sad.

And yes, I do understand the pressure those guys are under. But I dont understand the humiliation they subjected some of those people to.

One sad thing: A soldier at a check point telling the cameraman that the palestinians are animals, not human. Only the Israelis are human.

One surreal thing: A bunch of arabs having a snowball fight at an Israeli checkpoint while yelling "Allah akhbar".

One pathetic thing: Holding a bunch of people at a checkpoint over the night, not letting them pass, not giving back their ID-cards when they wanted to return home. Officer said "Keep them waiting".

And yes, the documentary didnt show any of the suffering Israelis go through and I am sure there is plenty of that to.

[brgnorway 0]

......and it's getting even worse:

Quote[/b] ]Israeli forces have pushed deeper into southern Gaza, a day after the United Nations condemned Israel for killing at least eight Palestinian protesters.

Israel intensifies Gaza offensive

[Bernadotte 0]

2. The death of those pals was horrible. The death of that Israeli woman and her 4 or so kids too.

Did your American tax dollars pay for the weapons and ammo that killed her too?  

That money probably came from Canada.

You're joking, right?  Canadian tax dollars are not paying for the weapons of terrorists.

Billybob2002 is eager to point out that both sides do horrible things, but he doesn't "give a fuck" that his taxes directly sponsor at least half of that horror.

[The Frenchman 0]

Its that time of the week again:

If you lived here, you would be armed by now!

[Bernadotte 0]

<span style='font-size:11pt;line-height:100%'>From 2 months ago:</span>

Equating Israeli's to Nazis is flame baiting and not acceptable, putting a smiley face next to it does not make it ok. bn880 I'm sorely tempted to PR you for that but hopefully this was out of character for you.

Excuse me!  They have built obtrusive walls, block people from working/living properly with checkpoints etc, kill protestors including children, destroyed palestinian infrastructure, hell, my opinion is they act like the new nazis, you want to PR me go ahead, I know what the heck I'm saying as it's true.  I will not let anyone tell me they are not doing part of what was special about Nazis, even if I am banned from this precious forum.

Following which, placebo promptly issued a 48hr post restriction to bn880.

<span style='font-size:11pt;line-height:100%'>From today's news:</span>

Quote[/b] ]PM rebukes Israeli justice minister

The Israeli justice minister, a Holocaust survivor, sparked controversy yesterday when he appeared to compare the demolition of homes in the Gaza Strip to Nazi atrocities during the second world war.

"I saw on television an old woman picking through the rubble of her house in Rafah, looking for her medicine, and she reminded me of my grandmother who was expelled from her home during the Holocaust," Yosef Lapid was quoting as saying in cabinet yesterday.

Ariel Sharon, prime minister, called the remarks "unacceptable and intolerable".

- Financial Times

Following which, the Israeli PM promptly issued a 48hr post restriction to the Israeli justice minister.